A-10 is not a mid major

[SLUDrew]

http://thepaint.net/2010/02/15/not-so-mid-major/

At least in the opinion of this author and it is hard to dispute his argument in support of this claim

[kevinfootes]

http://thepaint.net/2010/02/15/not-so-mid-major/

At least in the opinion of this author and it is hard to dispute his argument in support of this claim

The A10 is very interesting this year. While every conference has good and bad teams, I think there's a real difference between the top 7 and bottom 7 teams this season.

[adramos77]

I love how bad Oregon State is this year. Wonder why the bro-in-law was at the Georgetown-Duke game, Craig Robinson?

[Taj79]

Well ---- not right now. Sustainability is the key. Can Boise State, TCU and the Utahs of the world challenge the BCS football icons year-in and year-out? Or is it an aberration, like the Missouri Valley basketball was (as some like to say) a few short years ago? What conference is Gonzaga in? Is Gonzaga a mid-major? Is Butler? Is the WAC or WCC qnd/or the Horizon mid-majors? Short of the two schools I mentioned, I think the rest of the schools would gladly take mid-major status. Again, its all somewhat cyclical and the A10 is on the up right now.

I think the author does hit a key point, namely that the schools do not lose out on the value of four-year players as do the one-and-outs. I always argue that Larry Hughes did us no favors for his one-and-done year other than to whet our appetitis for what could be. We haven't really recovered from that blip on our radar screen. Like the world around us, we wanted the instant gratification that was Hughes' one year here. Find another was the cry. Schools like Saint Louis University don't get those opps but once. Now we need to build. And the ten-second sound bite world doesn't want to wait for that, Which is what, I believe, Majerus is after.

And you see it in the A10. Nelson and West were four-year players. Xavier, the best of the current crop, short of Brown, had no one go out early. Temple kept Christmas and Tynedale for four years. They even kept Sergio Olsmos for four; not that he was good or great, but by the time he finished, he was quite servicable as a big man. Same played out for our Chris Heinrich and Bryce Husak. You've seen kids staying on for four years at Butler, Southern Illinois, Gonzaga and others and that is what maintains the mid-major continuity. That's where I'd like to be because its the only way we can survive -- the big dogs in the college game will always go to the Kentuckys and Dukes and North Carolinas of the world. They reload and restock. All the rest have to create qnd maintqin sustainability. Once in a blue moon, a kid like Derrick Brown leaves a year early. At that point, you can still sustain as Xavier has.

Sure, a Larry Hughes and a Stephon Curry will come along and you'll be up there for a year or three. But if you haven't built below them, you're dead. Martelli had a great rum with Nelson and West. He maintained with Carroll and Ferguson and Calisthes (sp?). Then came Nivens. Now, that program is hurting. A mid-major, even in the A10, can't have a "miss" year.

Takes a restart to climb the mountain.

[someoneelse]

Coaching continuity also helps mid-major conferences/teams. The MVC has seen that happen in the downside the past few years. Mid-majors need coaches who sell themselves and a new hire is definitely a crap shoot. The school wants to go young to get the continuity over a few years, but the young coaches are unproven so. . .

[adramos77]

Taj, I agree with that, but it's the quality of the coaches that keep those programs together, even with the "one-and-dones."

Martelli won't have a string of sub .500 years. He's too good of a coach and runs too good of a program to let that happen on Hawk Hill.

Mark Few is probably the most underrated coach in the country. He plays his games when all of us are in bed (save for BayAreaBilliken) and has the entire city of Spokane at home games! He gets the most out of his players. As far as Butler goes, they've just established a culture of playing the role of the Under(Bull)Dog. A lot those Indiana/Ohio-born players at Butler probably dreamed of playing in Assembly Hall in Bloomington or at Ohio State, but weren't recruited. So they go to Butler and beat them. I love teams that are built around guys with huge chips on their shoulders.

[Taj79]

Couldn't agree more on the coaching note. That's why, when we fired the last guy at what was an abolutely atrocius time, I was scared as heck about what that would do to the program. Another new guy. Another up-and-comer. Which would mean in four or five years, here we go again --- because the new guy would fail or move on. I never expected Majerus. That was akin to getting Al McGuire or Bobby Knight or Bill Raftery or Digger to come out of retirement. Not that any of them would have success.

Success is a product of sustainabilty which works on a wide variety of levels. Coaching continuity cannot be discounted.

[Taj79]

I think Martelli is in trouble. Hawk Hill had a number 1 ranking a few short years ago and that leaves an even bigger taste for success in your mouth -- more than what we had in Hughes' one year. St. Joe's also ran to a recent NCAA berth with Calithes and Ferguson and Nivens which is also tasty. Then Nivens closed out with an A10 POY award. I know the prospectus is good with three big recruits supposedly coming in and Martelli is listed near the top of instructional coaches but its tough to win with freshmen. Williamson is his best player right now and the kid is more reluctant than Cassity is when it comes to shooting.

I sat with a lot of St. Joe's fans in Atlantic City last year. Nice folks. Kind folks. Genteel. Kind of reminded me of our fans. Like-mined institutions and all. But I know they don't like being second fiddle to Nova in the city of Brotherly Love. And not only are they behind Nova, but Temple has them; La Salle even has them, and even Drexel is 15 and 12. The guy I befriended last year had a St. Joe's straw hat from his undergrad days and a "letterman" sweater. And I think Ed McCauley is old -- this guy saw him play. But they were not happy -- even with a team led by Nivens. I think Phil might be in his final four years --- tops.

For a program with such history --- and then to refurb a gym that pales to my old high school gym even AFTER refurb. I don't get it.

[griffin/billiken]

The argument is an interesting one but I think the PAC-10 is a straw man argument. I think one could argue fairly that the PAC-10 is consistently overrated and the A-10 is consistently underrated. That said, compare the A-10, a conference I love by the way, to say the Big East? The argument falls apart pretty rapidly. The Big East is supposedly in a down year. A down year that will likely have two number 1 seeds and 6 teams in the tournament. Wow. The A-10 is a great conference but when you compare it directly to the Big East or the ACC (also in a down year), there is a quantitative and qualitative difference.

[adramos77]

I think Martelli is in trouble. Hawk Hill had a number 1 ranking a few short years ago and that leaves an even bigger taste for success in your mouth -- more than what we had in Hughes' one year. St. Joe's also ran to a recent NCAA berth with Calithes and Ferguson and Nivens which is also tasty. Then Nivens closed out with an A10 POY award. I know the prospectus is good with three big recruits supposedly coming in and Martelli is listed near the top of instructional coaches but its tough to win with freshmen. Williamson is his best player right now and the kid is more reluctant than Cassity is when it comes to shooting.

I sat with a lot of St. Joe's fans in Atlantic City last year. Nice folks. Kind folks. Genteel. Kind of reminded me of our fans. Like-mined institutions and all. But I know they don't like being second fiddle to Nova in the city of Brotherly Love. And not only are they behind Nova, but Temple has them; La Salle even has them, and even Drexel is 15 and 12. The guy I befriended last year had a St. Joe's straw hat from his undergrad days and a "letterman" sweater. And I think Ed McCauley is old -- this guy saw him play. But they were not happy -- even with a team led by Nivens. I think Phil might be in his final four years --- tops.

For a program with such history --- and then to refurb a gym that pales to my old high school gym even AFTER refurb. I don't get it.

But Martelli isn't a guy who rides his own coattails -- even after the 27-0 season. Unless there's a lot of discontent steaming out of the top of Hawk Hill, I think Martelli will be ok. He still recruits quality players. Maybe the facilities upgrade will help. It certainly has at SLU.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Couldn't agree more on the coaching note. That's why, when we fired the last guy at what was an abolutely atrocius time, I was scared as heck about what that would do to the program. Another new guy. Another up-and-comer. Which would mean in four or five years, here we go again --- because the new guy would fail or move on. I never expected Majerus. That was akin to getting Al McGuire or Bobby Knight or Bill Raftery or Digger to come out of retirement. Not that any of them would have success.

Success is a product of sustainabilty which works on a wide variety of levels. Coaching continuity cannot be discounted.

Coaching continuity is important, as shown by Gonzaga. When I first came out here in the mid-'80's, Gonzaga was a middle of the pack WCC team. But Dan Fitzgerald started that program, followed by Dan Monson, and then Mark Few, who himself was a Gonzaga assistant. Gonzaga has ruled the WCC for a long time.

Butler was even less than a middle of the pack team in the MCC before it became the Horizon, when schools such as Xavier, SLU, Marquette, and Dayton were members.

Gonzaga and Butler now have their own fiefdoms in their mid-major conferences to the point where NCAA bids are almost a given, and really are givens in Gonzaga's case.

As for players, it seems like Matt Bouldin at Gonzaga has been playing forever. He follows a long line of similar players for the Zags, guys like Derek Raivio, except Bouldin is 6'5".

The other night someone said Gonzaga is the New York Yankees of the WCC, and that St. Mary's is the Brooklyn Dodgers. St. Mary's, by the way, lost a key WCC road game at Portland. The Gaels, again, are very much on the NCAA bubble.

It is tough to compare clubs that don't play each other, but I would take our Billikens over St. Mary's this year, irrespective of what those RPI's say. Admittedly I'm biased, but I think SLU has the better club.

[adramos77]

The other night someone said Gonzaga is the New York Yankees of the WCC, and that St. Mary's is the Brooklyn Dodgers. St. Mary's, by the way, lost a key WCC road game at Portland. The Gaels, again, are very much on the NCAA bubble.

St. Mary's "Dem Bums" sounds better than the Gaels

When will the cry be "The Gaels win the WCC! The Gaels win the WCC!"

[Bay Area Billiken]

The other night someone said Gonzaga is the New York Yankees of the WCC, and that St. Mary's is the Brooklyn Dodgers. St. Mary's, by the way, lost a key WCC road game at Portland. The Gaels, again, are very much on the NCAA bubble.

St. Mary's "Dem Bums" sounds better than the Gaels

When will the cry be "The Gaels win the WCC! The Gaels win the WCC!"

Anything is possible, but that cry seems unlikely any time soon, with Gonzaga still ruling the roost. I was at the Gonzaga at SMC game earlier in the season. While it was a good game, Gonzaga seemed pretty much in control throughout- on St. Mary's home court. Then the Zags took it to SMC last Thursday night in The Kennel in Spokane.

Without Patty Mills, SMC is good, but doesn't seem as good as last year's team. Gonzaga has reloaded.

Gonzaga is not invinceable, as the Zags were upset at USF. The Zags also were all but beaten at Santa Clara, but rallied late to take that one.

The WCC Tournament is at Orleans Arena in Las Vegas, a neutral floor, for the second straight year.

[Bay Area Billiken]

http://thepaint.net/2010/02/15/not-so-mid-major/

At least in the opinion of this author and it is hard to dispute his argument in support of this claim

I agree that the A-10 is not a mid-major. By some definition circulating in the past, the A-10 is not a mid-major.

Further, we cannot assume, contrary to these pundits, that the Pac-10 is a Juan Bid league this season. I think first place Cal (RPI 23) is going to get an NCAA bid, irrespective of the Pac-10 Tournament result. Further, I doubt that Cal will win the Pac-10 Tournament at Staples Center in LA, primarily based upon history and just by being out here, following the games over the years. Thus, the Pac-10 will get at least 2 NCAA teams- Cal and the Pac-10 Tournament winner.

Watch Lorenzo Romar's Washington Huskies, RPI 53. UW has had problems on the road, but has some talent.

Also watch UCLA, playing in the Pac-10 Tournament in its hometown, albeit not on its home floor.

A number of desperate teams will be competing in that Pac-10 Tournament. One of them will come out of LA with the NCAA automatic bid.

[milwaukeebill]

growing up in milwaukee with a great marquette teeam right down the street...i followed the team and their message board pretty closely. this thread Reminds me exactly of the 2-3-4 years before the CUSA split when people started tlaking about that conference being a major conference...continually better then some others. (CUSA had a few more Final 4 runs tho).

[willie]

Anything is possible, but that cry seems unlikely any time soon, with Gonzaga still ruling the roost. I was at the Gonzaga at SMC game earlier in the season. While it was a good game, Gonzaga seemed pretty much in control throughout- on St. Mary's home court. Then the Zags took it to SMC last Thursday night in The Kennel in Spokane.

Without Patty Mills, SMC is good, but doesn't seem as good as last year's team. Gonzaga has reloaded.

Gonzaga is not invinceable, as the Zags were upset at USF. The Zags also were all but beaten at Santa Clara, but rallied late to take that one.

The WCC Tournament is at Orleans Arena in Las Vegas, a neutral floor, for the second straight year.

The Orleans Arena is where the Billikens played in the Christmas tournament last year. Not a bad building.

[adramos77]

The Orleans Arena is where the Billikens played in the Christmas tournament last year. Not a bad building.

Rock & Worship Roadshow

April 11, 2010 - 6:00pm

Orleans Arena.

Be There.

[RB2.0]

In my opinion, the a-10 is slightly above a mid-major. However, I would say every casual fan outside the A-10 considers it a mid-major. The A-10 is in the same position the MVC was a few years ago when they were sending 3-4 teams to the tourny on a yearly basis. They weren't a "major" conference then yet they had some very good teams. I think we (the A-10) are in a nearly identical situation.

A-10 is up, MVC is down. It fluctuates like this for awhile...

[SLUDrew]

In my opinion, the a-10 is slightly above a mid-major. However, I would say every casual fan outside the A-10 considers it a mid-major. The A-10 is in the same position the MVC was a few years ago when they were sending 3-4 teams to the tourny on a yearly basis. They weren't a "major" conference then yet they had some very good teams. I think we (the A-10) are in a nearly identical situation.

A-10 is up, MVC is down. It fluctuates like this for awhile...

Was the Valley ever sending 3-4 teams on a "yearly basis?"

It is not cyclical when the A-10 has been better every season over the last 15 or so years save a couple. The years the Valley were better were an outlier

[slufanskip]

In my opinion, the a-10 is slightly above a mid-major. However, I would say every casual fan outside the A-10 considers it a mid-major. The A-10 is in the same position the MVC was a few years ago when they were sending 3-4 teams to the tourny on a yearly basis. They weren't a "major" conference then yet they had some very good teams. I think we (the A-10) are in a nearly identical situation.

A-10 is up, MVC is down. It fluctuates like this for awhile...

actually it doesn't. Over the last 15 years the A10 has had an average of 1 more team per year than the MVC. The MVC hasn't had a team get higher than the Sweet 16 in that period while the A10 has had 5 teams reach the elite 8 over the same period. The MVC has had 3 years of 3 or more bids during the 15 year stretch, the A10 has had 11 years of 3 or more bids.

[Bay Area Billiken]

actually it doesn't. Over the last 15 years the A10 has had an average of 1 more team per year than the MVC. The MVC hasn't had a team get higher than the Sweet 16 in that period while the A10 has had 5 teams reach the elite 8 over the same period. The MVC has had 3 years of 3 or more bids during the 15 year stretch, the A10 has had 11 years of 3 or more bids.

This year the A-10's RPI is #6, with 6 teams in the Top 42: Temple (12), Xavier (20), Rhode Island (22), Richmond (27), Dayton (33), and Charlotte (42).

The MVC is #9 in conference RPI this season, with Northern Iowa (RPI 25) and Wichita State (RPI 47) as the only NCAA At Large Bid candidates.

Following the RPI, the NCAA would cut off today at RPI 49, with 6 A-10 teams and 2 MVC teams.

The Pac-10 (conference RPI of #8) would have only 1 NCAA team per the RPI: #23 Cal. But again, don't believe that IMO. I think the Pac-10 will get at least 2 NCAA teams.

SLU, with its RPI at 91, still has more work to do. But there is some hope, and the RPI is not the end all, even if it usually proves to be very close to that, with only about 3 variances per year, irrespective of NCAA Committee pronouncements, etc.

If SLU could get its RPI into the low 50's and enter Selection Sunday as a red hot team, that NCAA Committee would hopefully take notice.

[TheChosenOne]

actually it doesn't. Over the last 15 years the A10 has had an average of 1 more team per year than the MVC. The MVC hasn't had a team get higher than the Sweet 16 in that period while the A10 has had 5 teams reach the elite 8 over the same period. The MVC has had 3 years of 3 or more bids during the 15 year stretch, the A10 has had 11 years of 3 or more bids.

Come on Skip, don't let facts get in the way....

[DirtyRican]

This year the A-10's RPI is #6, with 6 teams in the Top 42: Temple (12), Xavier (20), Rhode Island (22), Richmond (27), Dayton (33), and Charlotte (42).

The MVC is #9 in conference RPI this season, with Northern Iowa (RPI 25) and Wichita State (RPI 47) as the only NCAA At Large Bid candidates.

Following the RPI, the NCAA would cut off today at RPI 49, with 6 A-10 teams and 2 MVC teams.

The Pac-10 (conference RPI of #8) would have only 1 NCAA team per the RPI: #23 Cal. But again, don't believe that IMO. I think the Pac-10 will get at least 2 NCAA teams.

SLU, with its RPI at 91, still has more work to do. But there is some hope, and the RPI is not the end all, even if it usually proves to be very close to that, with only about 3 variances per year, irrespective of NCAA Committee pronouncements, etc.

If SLU could get its RPI into the low 50's and enter Selection Sunday as a red hot team, that NCAA Committee would hopefully take notice.

Wichita State has a lot of work to do in order to get an at large. Their loss to Evansville hurt really bad.

[brianstl]

But Martelli isn't a guy who rides his own coattails -- even after the 27-0 season. Unless there's a lot of discontent steaming out of the top of Hawk Hill, I think Martelli will be ok. He still recruits quality players. Maybe the facilities upgrade will help. It certainly has at SLU.

Martelli lands almost no big time recruits. He has landed 1 top 100 player in the last five years. He hasn't had a better than 9-7 record in the conference in the last five years. His job should be on the line next year.

[Cowboy]

Martelli lands almost no big time recruits. He has landed 1 top 100 player in the last five years. He hasn't had a better than 9-7 record in the conference in the last five years. His job should be on the line next year.

-as to st joe's, in 2004 they went 30-2 and to the elite 8, since then 1 ncaa trip and a record of 99-68, not too shabby (2 nit's)

-4 straight yrs of 9-7 in a10, for those into that stuff