3 More Years!!!

[davidnark]

not sure you are saving days all that much. you will still be taking thursday to travel and assuming you stay till the end of the tourney you might have to take monday as well. so three business days.

I don't understand. Flying to Philly is cheap and easy, and it is an easy train or car ride to A City. I would catch an early Friday morning flight to Philly and make the Friday evening games without issue. If we happen to play early Friday, I would catch a Thursday afternoon/evening flight. In either instance, I would fly back Sunday afternoon or evening. This only requires me to miss one full day of work.

[davidnark]

I like this new structure because it further separates the haves from the have-nots in a conference that could benefit from a little class structure. Those teams that continue to invest in their programs and facilities will be likely be rewarded with a first-round bye or extra home game, and the have-nots will become less relevant.

[satrap]

I agree with Cowboy. All we do is ***** about the A-10 but for once they are trying to step-up and make this a better conference tournament and still all people want to do is *****. I say good job to the A-10 for at least trying.

Your suggestions and observations are right-on. In fact, the conference tournament- if you are going to have one- should be a major showcase for a league and in almost all respects MORE important than an additional possible NCAA bid. Having the tourney Fri-Sunday is esentially acknowledging the seriousness of the effort, and Atlantic City is the best venue I can think of for a league named the Atlantic 10.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, for all your talk about how SLU needs to buck up and spend money to improve all the sports yada yada it rings hollow to me when the conference tries to buck up and make the tournament more attractive to fans and CBS and all you do is complain about the prices of the hotels in Atlantic City or the cost of opening up the Chaifetz on a Tuesday. Maybe we should have the tournament in some podunk town on a Mon-thursday so that costs are as low as possible.

I agree with Cowboy. All we do is ***** about the A-10 but for once they are trying to step-up and make this a better conference tournament and still all people want to do is *****. I say good job to the A-10 for at least trying.

i have no problem with atlantic city. i just dont think looking at the big picture the changes are going to bring more fans. i think weekends will chase more away than bring. atlantic city is not a cheap city for weekends, and definitely not a cheap or easy travel destination. my suggestion had the travel happening leisurely on the weekend and hotels substantially cheaper during the week. this setup will mean travel during the week and spending more on hotels on weekends. i think that once the actually tourney comes up and fans actually sit down and think about the logistics, they will see what i am talking about.

the conference should also try to put together travel packages and deep discounts for dayton, xavier and saint louis. these are by far the biggest attendance draw programs in the conference but atlantic city is the worst destination for all three cities compared to the rest of the conference. thus, if i was the a-10, i would be all about trying to make that destination trip to atlantic city a better package for dayton, xavier and saint louis fans. that is where their profit is. i totally agree on the destination, but i just think nothing was done to try to make it easier and more affordable for the cash cows of the conference. imo that is short sighted.

i also think tv viewers around the country will watch the acc and big east championship games on espn before they watch our game on cbs. as much as i want to be the equal of the bcs conferences, there is no reason to believe we are yet. imo, being the top banana on a wednesday or thursday evening championship will guarantee more national viewers than taking on the big conferences right now. now if the conference starts to gain in fame and rep, then fine, down the road, by all means move up.

and whether we like it or not, our athletic dept hasnt shown the willingness to spend the big bucks or show a "whatever it takes" budgetary approach. i just dont think that having to host a last second game at chaifetz will be a welcome opportunity for the slu athletic dept. i wish it was, but again, we havent proven we are the open the wallet type program beyond rickma and his demands at this point.

if you notice, i didnt just say, "leave it like it is." i had suggestions of change. so i recognize that the conference is trying. i just dont think this is the right direction. especially the first round games being at the 5-8 seeds home courts. i just think all conference tourney games should be on sight. it is a huge factor that imo really unbalances the likely outcomes. we'll see as i am sure this format is the direction for the next three years now.

[billiken_roy]

I like this new structure because it further separates the haves from the have-nots in a conference that could benefit from a little class structure. Those teams that continue to invest in their programs and facilities will be likely be rewarded with a first-round bye or extra home game, and the have-nots will become less relevant.

let me know when the bcs conferences play first round games at their higher seed home courts.

[willie]

i have no problem with atlantic city. i just dont think looking at the big picture the changes are going to bring more fans. i think weekends will chase more away than bring. atlantic city is not a cheap city for weekends, and definitely not a cheap or easy travel destination. my suggestion had the travel happening leisurely on the weekend and hotels substantially cheaper during the week. this setup will mean travel during the week and spending more on hotels on weekends. i think that once the actually tourney comes up and fans actually sit down and think about the logistics, they will see what i am talking about.

the conference should also try to put together travel packages and deep discounts for dayton, xavier and saint louis. these are by far the biggest attendance draw programs in the conference but atlantic city is the worst destination for all three cities compared to the rest of the conference. thus, if i was the a-10, i would be all about trying to make that destination trip to atlantic city a better package for dayton, xavier and saint louis fans. that is where their profit is. i totally agree on the destination, but i just think nothing was done to try to make it easier and more affordable for the cash cows of the conference. imo that is short sighted.

i also think tv viewers around the country will watch the acc and big east championship games on espn before they watch our game on cbs. as much as i want to be the equal of the bcs conferences, there is no reason to believe we are yet. imo, being the top banana on a wednesday or thursday evening championship will guarantee more national viewers than taking on the big conferences right now. now if the conference starts to gain in fame and rep, then fine, down the road, by all means move up.

and whether we like it or not, our athletic dept hasnt shown the willingness to spend the big bucks or show a "whatever it takes" budgetary approach. i just dont think that having to host a last second game at chaifetz will be a welcome opportunity for the slu athletic dept. i wish it was, but again, we havent proven we are the open the wallet type program beyond rickma and his demands at this point.

if you notice, i didnt just say, "leave it like it is." i had suggestions of change. so i recognize that the conference is trying. i just dont think this is the right direction. especially the first round games being at the 5-8 seeds home courts. i just think all conference tourney games should be on sight. it is a huge factor that imo really unbalances the likely outcomes. we'll see as i am sure this format is the direction for the next three years now.

There are actually a few people in this country who don't have ESPN. I don't know how the live but they do.

[gister]

The first round games will be played on Tuesday. This means that it may be more of a burden for teams playing on the final Sunday than the Tuesday winner playing on Friday, particularly if travel is involved Sun to Tues.

There were no games on the final Sunday this year, so that is not an issue. I don't know if that was true in previous years, but I would think they would keep it that way for the future.

[billiken_roy]

I don't understand. Flying to Philly is cheap and easy, and it is an easy train or car ride to A City. I would catch an early Friday morning flight to Philly and make the Friday evening games without issue. If we happen to play early Friday, I would catch a Thursday afternoon/evening flight. In either instance, I would fly back Sunday afternoon or evening. This only requires me to miss one full day of work.

david, map it out further for me. how long to get from boardwak to the train station? train station to the airport? you are sure that leaves enough time to catch the sunday evening flight to st louis?

the first two years it was in atlantic city, it did not work that way. i would have had to have travel days on both ends of the tourney to make the plane trips work. i agree if we play the late game friday and the final is a late morning game sunday it might work as you suggest, but again, you cant guarantee that.

[billiken_roy]

There are actually a few people in this country who don't have ESPN. I don't know how the live but they do.

primitive must be in mvc cities. they wouldnt be watching anyway.

[Cowboy]

-i would be prepared to pay for the first round game with the season tickets as it makes sense logistically to charge everyone for it, distribute the ticket with the season tix and if the game does not happen apply the money as a deposit to next year's renewal

-some won't like it, but probably the best way for the U to handle it as i see it now unless there is another plan out there

[billiken_roy]

-i would be prepared to pay for the first round game with the season tickets as it makes sense logistically to charge everyone for it, distribute the ticket with the season tix and if the game does not happen apply the money as a deposit to next year's renewal

-some won't like it, but probably the best way for the U to handle it as i see it now unless there is another plan out there

i think that is a fantastic idea. you should make sure chris may hears that.

[kwyjibo]

david, map it out further for me. how long to get from boardwak to the train station? train station to the airport? you are sure that leaves enough time to catch the sunday evening flight to st louis?

The train from the Airport to Downtown Philly is timed to make the Atlantic City train connection (maybe a 20-30 miunte layover). There are 12 a day from Philly to Atlantic City. It would make sense to take the train if you were travelling alone or did not want to drive as it is cheaper than parking in AC + gas (way cheaper than a rental). There is a jitney system in AC where you can ride around for free from casino to train to casino (it could take up to a half hour if you timed it right but there are also plenty of cabs). The train station is next to the convention center which has a big hotel attached. It is walkable to the Boardwalk Hall and other central hotels (there would be shopping for the beginning of the walk).

[jimbofive]

There are actually a few people in this country who don't have ESPN. I don't know how the live but they do.

i don't get espn uno through ocho as i don't have cable, but i watch plenty of the dotcom.

[Iggy]

I used to go to conference tournaments when they were within a reasonable driving distance (Memphis, Milwauke, Cincinnati, St. Louis or course). I just don't like the idea of having to fly to Atlantic City for a weekend, spending $$$ on a hotel, etc. when I'll have to fly to yet another city to be determined the following Thursday for the first and second round of the NCAA. I'll wait for the dance.

[billiken_roy]

I used to go to conference tournaments when they were within a reasonable driving distance (Memphis, Milwauke, Cincinnati, St. Louis or course). I just don't like the idea of having to fly to Atlantic City for a weekend, spending $$$ on a hotel, etc. when I'll have to fly to yet another city to be determined the following Thursday for the first and second round of the NCAA. I'll wait for the dance.

i am the same iggy. hell we saw each other at the tourneys all the time. however i tried to map it out two different times and it just made no sense.

[davidnark]

i just dont think looking at the big picture the changes are going to bring more fans. i think weekends will chase more away than bring.

Roy, this statement is just nonsensical and defies any logic.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, this statement is just nonsensical and defies any logic.

david just wait and see when you go to map out the first game of the tourney through the last one and the time frames to get to and from and the costs. then come back and tell me that. i've done it when it didnt run through sunday, now it will be even worse.

[billiken_roy]

david did some quick checking on last minute tavel arrangements which assuming the worst where we are making arrangements like today for friday which would kind of coincide with what would happen assuming a playin game.

southwest only has one morning flight that will arrive in philly by noon. hope we dont start at 11 am. and the latest flight back was leaving at 330. that round trip would be $460

american has a direct flight that leaves early enough to get there by 11. and a later flight that wouldnt leave until 550. but the cost zooms to $1821 round trip.

hotel at the tropicana for just friday and saturday would be $518 for the cheapest room.

if the flights dont work and you also have to stay thursday and sunday, that would take the room cost to $676.

havent bought tickets to the games yet as taj swears can just walk up and that is probably true.

havent bought the train ticket from philly or the rental car yet.

and might want to have some food money and gambling money.

roughly assuming you take the southwest flight on thurday and stay the extra night, you got about $1300 for plane and hotel, then add the tickets to the games yet as taj swears can just walk up and that is probably true.

havent bought the train ticket from philly or the rental car yet.

and might want to have some food money and gambling money.

it appears at least $2k to go. and like i said, doubting you can swing friday flight if the billikens play early. and if the championship is afternoon, doubt you are getting home sunday.

[cheesycow]

david did some quick checking on last minute tavel arrangements which assuming the worst where we are making arrangements like today for friday which would kind of coincide with what would happen assuming a playin game.

southwest only has one morning flight that will arrive in philly by noon. hope we dont start at 11 am. and the latest flight back was leaving at 330. that round trip would be $460

american has a direct flight that leaves early enough to get there by 11. and a later flight that wouldnt leave until 550. but the cost zooms to $1821 round trip.

hotel at the tropicana for just friday and saturday would be $518 for the cheapest room.

if the flights dont work and you also have to stay thursday and sunday, that would take the room cost to $676.

havent bought tickets to the games yet as taj swears can just walk up and that is probably true.

havent bought the train ticket from philly or the rental car yet.

and might want to have some food money and gambling money.

roughly assuming you take the southwest flight on thurday and stay the extra night, you got about $1300 for plane and hotel, then add the tickets to the games yet as taj swears can just walk up and that is probably true.

havent bought the train ticket from philly or the rental car yet.

and might want to have some food money and gambling money.

it appears at least $2k to go. and like i said, doubting you can swing friday flight if the billikens play early. and if the championship is afternoon, doubt you are getting home sunday.

All of these are essentially SLU fan costs. Tell me why there's nothing wrong with SLU in the A-10 geographically again?

(note: i am not an MVC advocate)

[billiken_roy]

All of these are essentially SLU fan costs. Tell me why there's nothing wrong with SLU in the A-10 geographically again?

(note: i am not an MVC advocate)

that is why i proposed an alternative that would at least knock off about 15% of the cost by lowering the cost of the rooms. to try to save the dayton, xavier and saint louis fans money.

now add to that savings the added surety that atlantic city would likely deal even deeper group rates for travel that wouldnt involve weekend overnights, the savings probably jumps even more.

my whole point is that the conference wants to show a profit they need dayton, xavier and saint louis fans to do it to get more than the absolute crazy and wealthy fans and maybe players family that means making it more affordable. and while the trade off is losing cbs, the consolation prize is the featured show for espn during the middle of the week.

[cheesycow]

that is why i proposed an alternative that would at least knock off about 15% of the cost by lowering the cost of the rooms. to try to save the dayton, xavier and saint louis fans money.

now add to that savings the added surety that atlantic city would likely deal even deeper group rates for travel that wouldnt involve weekend overnights, the savings probably jumps even more.

my whole point is that the conference wants to show a profit they need dayton, xavier and saint louis fans to do it to get more than the absolute crazy and wealthy fans and maybe players family that means making it more affordable. and while the trade off is losing cbs, the consolation prize is the featured show for espn during the middle of the week.

I think there's huge advantages to being on CBS the week before the tournament starts, supposing the NCAA doesn't opt out. and Xavier and Dayton are 300 miles closer to atlantic city than St. Louis. Again, screwy geography for SLU.

[davidnark]

Roy - nearly 80% of the teams in the conference can get to Atlantic City via a short car or train ride for a last-minute weekend trip. Dayton and Xavier fans will have a long, but doable, car ride or a short plane ride. We are the outlier, but we haven't exactly been known for packing conference tournaments over the last several decades. For nearly every team except SLU, this new arrangement makes it much more likely their fans will attend.

Also, the cost-conscious St. Louis fans would be wise to book a refundable ticket in advance rather than try to book a ticket a day or two before. I used to fly into Philly regularly for work, and 14 days out you could usually get a round-trip ticket for $250 or less.

[kshoe]

Roy - nearly 80% of the teams in the conference can get to Atlantic City via a short car or train ride for a last-minute weekend trip. Dayton and Xavier fans will have a long, but doable, car ride or a short plane ride. We are the outlier, but we haven't exactly been known for packing conference tournaments over the last several decades. For nearly every team except SLU, this new arrangement makes it much more likely their fans will attend.

Also, the cost-conscious St. Louis fans would be wise to book a refundable ticket in advance rather than try to book a ticket a day or two before. I used to fly into Philly regularly for work, and 14 days out you could usually get a round-trip ticket for $250 or less.

Southwest flights can be cheaply bought and if you choose to cancel the funds can be used for future flights. Its really quite doable.

Roy's idea that the rest of the conference should suffer a mid-week tourney so that SLU, Dayton and Xavier fans can have an easier and cheaper time getting to the tourney is ridiculous. I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to believe that in a couple years 3 of those 4 will have the auto-buys more years than not and even the years when we don't we should be hosting the first round at home. The "uncertainty" that a 5 or 6 seed will have in playing an 11 or 12 seed should be pretty low.

[Taj79]

Sometimes I watch in wonder at some of our "debates" but that wonder does not diminish the joy that is talking Billiken basketball.

The bottom line, the line we we cannot change right now, is that we are in the wrong conference. Its akin to Rhode Island being in the Mo Valley or Mountain West. But deal with it we must.

#1 -- the idea of coupling us fans with fans of Dayton and Xavier is ludicrous. I am guessing Roy is basing that on average annual attendance, which would make it true in terms of the top three drawing teams in the conference (without really checking) but that is not a fair comparison. When have we ever traveled well? Three years ago, in Brad's final year, when we won two games before losing to the punk Kid's team, the SLU "crowd" grew exponentially as we moved on. But the top crowd was still only about 25 people. And its the same folks --- so the idea that some mass exodus from St. Louis to the AC is relevant here is unfounded IMO. Having said that, the idea of some huge discount is probably warranted but discounts are given based on numbers. The more people flying, the more people lodging, the more people eating, the more likely and deeper the discount will be. What historical information and statistics do you take to the AC Visitors and Convention Bureau to deal with in that regard?

#2 -- the deals in AC will likely dry up with the new play dates. AC is looking to book rooms early week, Sunday through Thursday, in the winter, which March is. The kid got a room at the Trop for Wednesday night for $49. I got one for two with breakfast for $59 (let me tell you, $10 won't get you much for breakfast, the deal maxed out at $30 and we needed it!). Those rates went up to $119 for Friday and, I think $139 for Saturday. So deals are there. But deals and discounts are based on volume, and in those regards, I will bet you Dayton and Xavier are already in that arena somewhere. Have to be.

#3 -- hotels out and about abound, its a matter of what you want to pay and where you want to stay. West Atlantic City, which is along Highway 40 over the bay and past the ballpark, boasts some okay hotels and chains like Choice, Red Roof, Hampton and others. I thinked Trich stayed at a local Howard Johnson's this past year. I have stayed at those as well --- GeeDub was in that Red Roof with me three years ago. Weekend nights there usually go for about $100 per. TseugnekilliB told me he stayed at the Choice for about $49 a night that same year. You can do it, I would not --- the idea of walking out of Boardwalk Hall, taking a left or right and hitting my hotel within five minutes, with the various relaxation opportunities, would far outweigh the savings realized by driving to a "motel" after retriving the car from a parking garage and going from there. With my Trop card, parking at the Trop is $5 --- whether I come in daily or park it on Wendesday and leave Saturday. So that's easy. If I were you guys and flew to Philly, I'd train it down to AC but knowing I have no car, have to stay at a boardwalk location because West AC is at least 7 to 8 miles out given its not a straigh tline (bays and bogs). There are other, less desirable but doable "hotels and motels" in town not on the boards. Travelodge comes to mind. Short of being a shoot location for a TV drug deal or crime scene show, I'm sure they're okay. The Kid stayed at one of those three years ago, ask him.

#4 -- if we were a real fan base of a real program, we'd have our plans formed for next year and beyond ALREADY. I do -- in as far as if the Bills go, I go. I don't have the details but I'm there. It would be the same if it were Cincy, Dayton or Pitt. I think I'd have a little more work to do if it were Springfield and Olean, well, that would be a LOT of work still to do (finding it on a map woudl be my first shot). You think htis is bad, how much do you think Big East fans get in Manhatten each and every year?

#5 -- worring about attendance is bunkus. I know some folks have talked about how if attendance is the deal breaker, the no-brainer answer is and WILL ALWAYS be Dayton. End of debate. But I watched a whole lot of NIT games that were played in front of empty seats. The Women's March Madness is now putting their teams in venues like the REC at Rutgers and Comcast at Maryland. And those teams are playing there. Why? I watched regional finals played at places that made attendance at St. Bonaventure look like an "angry throng." I saw tons of empty seats at NCAA games this past weekend. Maybe those folks are really fickle and do leave when they're team is bounced (I heard the scalpers at Dayton took a bath when Ohio State went down to Siena on Friday). For the cost of thoise seats, I'm staying. Besides, you can crop a photo you can also crop a camera angle. Speakign of empty seats, I saw SLU home games against Charlotte and St. Joe's this year and empty seats were visible. the "Fetz didn't look "full" for Dayton, although I know it was.

#6 -- BCS wannabees. Roy said something about the A10 and us not being a BCS league. Might I remind all that BCS stands for Bowl Championship Series. Which is a football term. So following along that logic, without a football team playing at that level, SLU will NEVER be a BCS team. Who in the A10 will be? Um -- guess what, no one! UMass, Richmond, soon Charlotte, Duquesne, Fordham, Rhode Island all play Division 1AA football. So does Temple although Temply might argue otherwise. The A10 will always be mid-major, as will the Valley, the Mountain West, CUSA, the Horizon and others. Even if a "papal conference" were created, only Notre Dame would be a BCS football playing school in that mix. I think those that are setting up some sort of goal of elevating the A10 to elite status are tilting at windmills. I mean, you try, but I think you are setting yourself up for failure going that route. Its a nice league, and we are still a fish out of water in it, but it is what it is.

#7 -- tickets. Tickets are readily available as I've sworn. But that statement is contingent on the fact that we've (and I) have never made it to a championship game. This year, two games. Last year, one and done, the year before that, three. The previous year, one and done. In all those instnaces, tickets were not only easy, but of the seven games noted there, I actually "paid" for tickets three times. Ya hang with the Sign Kid, you take the age-abuse jokes, you carry a torn up leather case at times, you inevitably get "perks." The ushers in boardwalk Hall let him go wherever he wants to --- without a press pass! i get scraps but I ain't complaining. Did you know that one of the conference requirements is that each participating school buy 50 tickets to each of its sessions? Ever been to a game where 50 Billiken fans showed up? Supply and demand, folks. Supply and demand.

Another bottom line, adn the real bototm line, is AC sucks for you guys in the Midwest. No doubts about that. I first met Roy at a Conference USA tournament and consider myself lucky for that. I've met the kid, the backwards Billiken guest, Clancy, griffster, kwijybo, Billiken Nick, Trich, kshoe, sshoe, skip, willie, and othesr. I've met UCTom and gruehls and have used this board to re-energize with bonowich and scrivener sinc eschool dats and even reconnected with old frat buds through it. I've shared conversations on our favorite topic with redbirdfan, Bay Area, cheeseman, and others. I really wish we could take the old days of the MCC touirnament in Indianapolis and combine that, with its vibrant downtown now, into either the A10 experience or the long hoped for Papal Conference. I like seeing these board rats and would really look forward more to a conference tournament that included all. The sheer numbers on this board, if we all showed up in March, no matter the location, would be the largest Billiken crowd I was ever a part of.

the distance is bad, I know, but its the best of a bad situation.

[SluSignGuy]

Taj makes some good points. Especially about SLU's attendance even at more geographically friendly conference tournament sites.

Overall, from SLU's perspective, the setup of the A-10 tournament is better than in previous years as they will have a chance at a home game. I think the suggestion of including this home game in the season ticket packages is a really good idea (I would almost make the ticket "free," and just build in the cost in other tickets somehow).

Atlantic City geographically stinks for SLU, but it is pretty darn good for everyone else. For example, Dusquense actually had a pretty good showing in the game against us. SLU on the other hand has always struggled to get people to the tournament in decent numbers. I have been to every SLU Conference tournament except 1 since the Miracle in Memphis (I went to the A-10 tournament the year SLU was like 8 - 20, GW meanwhile won the A-10).

Would I go to every conference tournament if I were in St. Louis still, pretty doubtful. However, for the A-10, I think staying in AC is excellent. For SLU, I prefer the A-10 over the Valley, but until we are in a geographically sensisible conference or our fans start to travel like the Daytonites, we can't gripe too much. Since even when the tournament was in Cincy, the numbers were probably less than a 100.