davidnark Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Illinois State loses an exciting overtime game, and now he is ready to proclaim the MVC a two-team conference. He suggests that Illinois State will be robbed if they don't get a bid. He says that the MVC is more deserving of 2 bids than the A10. Never mind that Illiniois State has had an average record against average conference competition. Nevermind that the top two teams in the MVC have RPIs of 39 and 45, and the top two teams in the A10 have RPIs of 14 and 23. The St. Louis media is notorious for not allowing the facts to get in the way of a good emotionally-driven argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If anybody deserves an at-large out of that conference it's Creighton, not Ill. State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satrap Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 The St. Louis media is notorious for not allowing the facts to get in the way of a good emotionally-driven argument. I have never seen a writer for a major publication less in control of their emotions as Burwell. If Indiana State had just completed a spirited run to the final, Burwell would be waxing poetic about the virtues of Indiana high-school basketball, the "spirit" of Larry Bird, and ol' Terre Haute. He's completely captured by the last thought to cross his mind. I agree with your point re: the A10. The basketball this year has been of a better quality than that of the MVC, undoubtedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 With Lee Publishing's stock (Post Dispatch) down below $1/share (was $50/share 5 years ago), Burwell is being nice to the Valley for all of their paid advertisements and to the St. Louis Sports/Visitors Committee for putting the Valley Tourney together. Nice article until one of the last lines "But you can't tell me Atlantic 10 or any other mid major conference deserves mulitple bids more than the The Valley." Burwell, I was with you until then. Why not say some BCS team needs only 5 teams in the Dance rather than 6. Why would the A10's getting 2 teams in be looked at as taking 1 spot from The Valley? Why not rip on an "unknown" or less followed West Coast team or conference? Why rip on SLU's conference - the A10? Low class move and typical of the Post Disgrace. While you're at it, I doubt Burwell would have written the article he did about IL State PRIOR to the Valley Tournament and based solely on their regular season record. Instead, he is real impressed with how they did during their Tournament. Why not, at least, attempt to be impartial by waiting until the A10 (and the other mid-majors) has its Tourney and see if UD, St. Joe, LaSalle - or god forbid SLU - really has a nice run like IL State did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If anybody deserves an at-large out of that conference it's Creighton, not Ill. State. St. Mary's (RPI 45) deserves an NCAA at large ahead of both Creighton and Illinois State once the Patty Mills injury is considered. The entire Missouri Valley Conference has no player better than Patty Mills. SMC was 18-1 when Mills was injured and nationally ranked. Now Mills is back. And this business about the MVC deserving 2 bids more than the A-10 does is just pure rubbish. Xavier (RPI 15) and Dayton (RPI 22) have much better RPI's than any Valley team. For that matter, Temple (RPI 40) has as much right to an NCAA at large bid than do Creighton (RPI 39) or Illinois State (RPI 47). With friends like this in the Valley loving STL media, who needs enemies? Which side are these scribes on? Saint Louis University is in St. Louis. That the MVC is based in STL should not override SLU being the hometown team. So these STL scribes should be on SLU's side. The Peoria Journal-Star, the Des Moines Register, the Wichita Eagle, and the Omaha World-Herald can give the Valley its support. From afar, I can tell you that the Valley has nowhere near the reputation that it has, for whatever reason, in St. Louis. The A-10 is regarded here as the better league, which it is. The Valley is regarded as a mid-major that has a tendency to pilfer NCAA bids from others. There's another of these inexplicable SLU should be in the Valley threads in Bernie's Press Box. There's no argument, no evidence that will appease these people. It is a never ending, eternally playing old record. Sure the Valley wants SLU. Whether they want to admit it or not, the presence of Saint Louis University in the Valley would make the rest of the Valley schools look better. But SLU left the Valley in 1974. Why doesn't the Valley and its media apologists go after Wash U? After all, Wash U played in the Valley until 1942. And the presence of Wash U in the Valley would certainly help the overall profile of the rest of the Valley members, wouldn't it? Someone needs to start a Wash U to the Valley thread in Bernie's Press Box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have never seen a writer for a major publication less in control of their emotions as Burwell. I agree with this statement completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 St. Mary's (RPI 45) deserves an NCAA at large ahead of both Creighton and Illinois State once the Patty Mills injury is considered. The entire Missouri Valley Conference has no player better than Patty Mills. SMC was 18-1 when Mills was injured and nationally ranked. Now Mills is back. And this business about the MVC deserving 2 bids more than the A-10 does is just pure rubbish. Xavier (RPI 15) and Dayton (RPI 22) have much better RPI's than any Valley team. For that matter, Temple (RPI 40) has as much right to an NCAA at large bid than do Creighton (RPI 39) or Illinois State (RPI 47). Ahead of Illinois State, definitely. Creighton not so much, although they may not get in. With St. Marys though, you're talking pure homerism. Their SOS is 160. That's terrible. The A-10 does deserve two, although Dayton's SOS isn't great. The way Xavier is playing, they may not get the automatic and make sure there's two or maybe three like it happened last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postcard Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 St. Mary's (RPI 45) deserves an NCAA at large ahead of both Creighton and Illinois State once the Patty Mills injury is considered. The entire Missouri Valley Conference has no player better than Patty Mills. SMC was 18-1 when Mills was injured and nationally ranked. Now Mills is back. And this business about the MVC deserving 2 bids more than the A-10 does is just pure rubbish. Xavier (RPI 15) and Dayton (RPI 22) have much better RPI's than any Valley team. For that matter, Temple (RPI 40) has as much right to an NCAA at large bid than do Creighton (RPI 39) or Illinois State (RPI 47). With friends like this in the Valley loving STL media, who needs enemies? Which side are these scribes on? Saint Louis University is in St. Louis. That the MVC is based in STL should not override SLU being the hometown team. So these STL scribes should be on SLU's side. The Peoria Journal-Star, the Des Moines Register, the Wichita Eagle, and the Omaha World-Herald can give the Valley its support. From afar, I can tell you that the Valley has nowhere near the reputation that it has, for whatever reason, in St. Louis. The A-10 is regarded here as the better league, which it is. The Valley is regarded as a mid-major that has a tendency to pilfer NCAA bids from others. There's another of these inexplicable SLU should be in the Valley threads in Bernie's Press Box. There's no argument, no evidence that will appease these people. It is a never ending, eternally playing old record. Sure the Valley wants SLU. Whether they want to admit it or not, the presence of Saint Louis University in the Valley would make the rest of the Valley schools look better. But SLU left the Valley in 1974. Why doesn't the Valley and its media apologists go after Wash U? After all, Wash U played in the Valley until 1942. And the presence of Wash U in the Valley would certainly help the overall profile of the rest of the Valley members, wouldn't it? Someone needs to start a Wash U to the Valley thread in Bernie's Press Box. Creighton and St. Mary's have very similar numbers across the board with Creighton getting the overall edge. I don't see how you can say they deserve to be in over Creighton. Plus the MVC is a much better confernce than the WCC. I'm not banging the MVC drum here but Creighton is just as if not more deserving than St. Mary's. Creighton has also beat 2 teams that are will be in the tourney(Dayton and Northern Iowa). Creighton 26-7 SOS 106 RPI 41 10-4 Away/Neutral 9-1 last 10 3-2 vs RPI top 50 St. Mary's 23-5 SOS 160 RPI 46 12-4 Away/Neutral 7-3 last 10 2-2 vs RPI top 50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Creighton and St. Mary's have very similar numbers across the board with Creighton getting the overall edge. I don't see how you can say they deserve to be in over Creighton. Plus the MVC is a much better confernce than the WCC. I'm not banging the MVC drum here but Creighton is just as if not more deserving than St. Mary's. Creighton has also beat 2 teams that are will be in the tourney(Dayton and Northern Iowa). Creighton 26-7 SOS 106 RPI 41 10-4 Away/Neutral 9-1 last 10 3-2 vs RPI top 50 St. Mary's 23-5 SOS 160 RPI 46 12-4 Away/Neutral 7-3 last 10 2-2 vs RPI top 50 My reason for saying St. Mary's deserves a bid ahead of Creighton is that St. Mary's was 18-1 and ranked 22nd in the entire country at the time its star player, Patty Mills, broke his hand. SMC went 6-4 without Mills, and won last night in his return to action. I also cite the CSI (the Common Sense Index). I've seen SMC play 4 games in person, and I've seen morsels of Creighton on TV, including seeing Creighton get blown out on Saturday by Ill. State on a neutral floor. In my opinion, the Gaels are the better team, and with Mills playing, it isn't even that close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Creighton and St. Mary's have very similar numbers across the board with Creighton getting the overall edge. I don't see how you can say they deserve to be in over Creighton. Plus the MVC is a much better confernce than the WCC. I'm not banging the MVC drum here but Creighton is just as if not more deserving than St. Mary's. Creighton has also beat 2 teams that are will be in the tourney(Dayton and Northern Iowa). Creighton 26-7 SOS 106 RPI 41 10-4 Away/Neutral 9-1 last 10 3-2 vs RPI top 50 St. Mary's 23-5 SOS 160 RPI 46 12-4 Away/Neutral 7-3 last 10 2-2 vs RPI top 50 post, i think the committee in year's past has made statements concerning teams that got seeds/bids or did not based on injuries or return from injuries. that is what bay area is talking about. with patty the team was probably a top 20 team. when he got hurt their record and success dipped tremendously. but now patty is back. so the committee may be inclined to weigh the patty effect. my guess is that considering their conference (or rather the fact st mary's is not a bcs team) the committee will not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postcard Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 post, i think the committee in year's past has made statements concerning teams that got seeds/bids or did not based on injuries or return from injuries. that is what bay area is talking about. with patty the team was probably a top 20 team. when he got hurt their record and success dipped tremendously. but now patty is back. so the committee may be inclined to weigh the patty effect. my guess is that considering their conference (or rather the fact st mary's is not a bcs team) the committee will not I know what he and you are saying but given the overall weakness of the conference(not a shot, just a fact), shouldn't St. Mary's be able to do better than 6-4 missing their best player? A tournament team should do better than that against a weak schedule. I would personally rather see the St. Mary's of the world get in over the Florida St's of the world but Creighton has every right to be included a head of them. St. Mary's signature win is Utah St(followed by San Diego St) if you go by the RPI. They're both worry of the conversation but to imply that St. Mary's is head and shoulders above the Bluejays is misguided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 -listen folks, burwell says it himself, he has covered college basketball for 30 years and knows that there is no way Ill St is not one of the best 65 teams -he might be right -the problem is the ncaa tourney has not once had the best 64 or 65 teams in it because of the automatic qualifiers -so he really does not seem to know what he is arguing for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I know what he and you are saying but given the overall weakness of the conference(not a shot, just a fact), shouldn't St. Mary's be able to do better than 6-4 missing their best player? A tournament team should do better than that against a weak schedule. I would personally rather see the St. Mary's of the world get in over the Florida St's of the world but Creighton has every right to be included a head of them. St. Mary's signature win is Utah St(followed by San Diego St) if you go by the RPI. They're both worry of the conversation but to imply that St. Mary's is head and shoulders above the Bluejays is misguided. Re St. Mary's, two (2) of those 4 losses were to 14th ranked Gonzaga. SMC was ahead late in the first half at Spokane when Mills was injured, and Mills had 18 points at the time. I was at the rematch in Moraga, where the Zags beat SMC 72-70 in a game with interesting officiating. The third loss was on the road to a pretty decent Portland team, and SMC has now avenged that loss twice. The fourth loss was at Santa Clara, which is a huge rivalry game in which the records often can be thrown out. Note that SMC beat Utah State (RPI 27 and the top team in the WAC) without Mills in the ESPN Bracketbuster, albeit in Moraga As for the WCC itself, SMC really can't help it that three of its fellow WCC members, USF, Pepperdine, and Loyola Marymount were way down this season. The rest of the league is not that easy. As for the schedule, Cal, for one, would never be seen setting foot in McKeon Pavilion in Moraga. And Cal has not been clamoring to play the Gaels in Berkeley either. Think Mizzou and SLU, only worse. SMC does the best it can with that schedule. SMC beat Providence and San Diego State, both in Anaheim. SMC won at Oregon, and beat Southern Illinois in Indianapolis. So SMC tried to schedule up. SMC didn't anticipate that Oregon and SIU would have such bad seasons. Agree with B-Roy re the Mills injury. If SMC was a big BCS school, there'd be little doubt that the NCAA would take the Gaels given their best player being out 10 games. As it is, it would behove the Gaels to win tonight. Finally, Patty Mills' shot was off last night, which was understandable given the long layoff. Who knows if he can shoot well tonight? But he's such a good player; you want him on the floor even if his outside shots aren't falling. The Gaels should be dancing. Aussie, Aussie, Oi! Oi! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I know what he and you are saying but given the overall weakness of the conference(not a shot, just a fact), shouldn't St. Mary's be able to do better than 6-4 missing their best player? A tournament team should do better than that against a weak schedule. I would personally rather see the St. Mary's of the world get in over the Florida St's of the world but Creighton has every right to be included a head of them. St. Mary's signature win is Utah St(followed by San Diego St) if you go by the RPI. They're both worry of the conversation but to imply that St. Mary's is head and shoulders above the Bluejays is misguided. very few teams can survive losing one of their best players in their program's history and not have a step back imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 My reason for saying St. Mary's deserves a bid ahead of Creighton is that St. Mary's was 18-1 and ranked 22nd in the entire country at the time its star player, Patty Mills, broke his hand. SMC went 6-4 without Mills, and won last night in his return to action. I also cite the CSI (the Common Sense Index). I've seen SMC play 4 games in person, and I've seen morsels of Creighton on TV, including seeing Creighton get blown out on Saturday by Ill. State on a neutral floor. In my opinion, the Gaels are the better team, and with Mills playing, it isn't even that close. Creighton actually lost their 1st round tourney game. I don't know why the bubble rule wasn't in effect for the 2nd game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 post, i think the committee in year's past has made statements concerning teams that got seeds/bids or did not based on injuries or return from injuries. that is what bay area is talking about. with patty the team was probably a top 20 team. when he got hurt their record and success dipped tremendously. but now patty is back. so the committee may be inclined to weigh the patty effect. my guess is that considering their conference (or rather the fact st mary's is not a bcs team) the committee will not I didn't know corperal punshment was allowed. I know when I was in school the Patty effect was real and had to always be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postcard Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 very few teams can survive losing one of their best players in their program's history and not have a step back imo. They lost by 18 to Portland and Santa Clara. Taking a step back is one thing. Getting blown out by inferior teams is another. Again, I'm not saying that they're not worthy but what have they done to deserve getting in ahead of Creighton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 very few teams can survive losing one of their best players in their program's history and not have a step back imo. -roy or someone....when we beat cinn with the broken foot, did cinn still get a 1 seed? i think they did which is opposite of how i think STM should be handled (STM should be in) -i agree with those saying STM should be in as with their full complement of players they seem to be one of the best 34 (at large) -i also agree with roy when he says don't be surprised to see STM get screwed on the application of this guideline since they are not in a bcs conf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 -roy or someone....when we beat cinn with the broken foot, did cinn still get a 1 seed? i think they did which is opposite of how i think STM should be handled (STM should be in) -i agree with those saying STM should be in as with their full complement of players they seem to be one of the best 34 (at large) -i also agree with roy when he says don't be surprised to see STM get screwed on the application of this guideline since they are not in a bcs conf No, they got a 2 seed....and promptly lost in the 2nd round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 They lost by 18 to Portland and Santa Clara. Taking a step back is one thing. Getting blown out by inferior teams is another. Again, I'm not saying that they're not worthy but what have they done to deserve getting in ahead of Creighton. How about this- St. Mary's with Patty Mills is better than Creighton. Again, SMC has beaten Portland twice since losing at Portland. SMC beat Portland in Moraga without Mills and last night in Las Vegas with Mills. The first Portland game (the road game) was 2 nights after Patty Mills broke his hand and on the same roadtrip. As for Santa Clara, SMC beat SCU in Moraga with Mills. I was at the rematch at Santa Clara, and that was Santa Clara's Final Four, pure bedlam down there. SMC had an off night shooting. Still the game was closer than the final score indicates, although admittedly it was not really in much doubt that SCU would win it. Would Mills have made a difference in that outcome- perhaps not. But would Mills have made a difference in the 2 Gonzaga games? Absolutely as to the second game, the one in Moraga, the one the Gaels lost by 2 points under highly questionable circumstances. You see my biggest point, and the fascinating aspect, is how the NCAA will handle the Mills injury, assuming SMC loses tonight against the Zags. We all know that a BCS team that was 18-1 when its best player went down, that went 6-4 without him, including winning the last 5 games without him, that has now won 6 straight, and that was ranked #22 nationally when its best player was injured, would be a mortal lock to make the NCAA Tournament. But when that team plays in a higher mid-major, when that team is a small college with an undergraduate enrollment of 2,500, without a huge following, what does the NCAA do? Aren't all schools supposed to be considered equally? If you believe that, maybe someone should put the Golden Gate Bridge up for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Illinois State loses an exciting overtime game, and now he is ready to proclaim the MVC a two-team conference. He suggests that Illinois State will be robbed if they don't get a bid. He says that the MVC is more deserving of 2 bids than the A10. Never mind that Illiniois State has had an average record against average conference competition. Nevermind that the top two teams in the MVC have RPIs of 39 and 45, and the top two teams in the A10 have RPIs of 14 and 23. The St. Louis media is notorious for not allowing the facts to get in the way of a good emotionally-driven argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Illinois State loses an exciting overtime game, and now he is ready to proclaim the MVC a two-team conference. He suggests that Illinois State will be robbed if they don't get a bid. He says that the MVC is more deserving of 2 bids than the A10. Never mind that Illiniois State has had an average record against average conference competition. Nevermind that the top two teams in the MVC have RPIs of 39 and 45, and the top two teams in the A10 have RPIs of 14 and 23. The St. Louis media is notorious for not allowing the facts to get in the way of a good emotionally-driven argument. The problem with Burwell's article is that it is irrelevant if Illinois State is one of the top 65 teams. The NCAA doesn't take the top 65 teams; rather the NCAA takes roughly the top 45 teams, give or take a few either way. The remainder of the field is composed of automatic representatives from lower and lesser conferences. If Illinois State was a BCS school with its RPI of 47, it would have a better chance of getting that NCAA at large bid. But since ISU comes from a mid-major conference, its chances lessen, irrespective of the NCAA's claims to the contrary. Ask Missouri State fans about that one. The Valley perhaps will get 2 teams, whether it really deserves them or not, the automatic bid Northern Iowa (RPI 59) and either Creighton (RPI 39) or ISU (RPI 47), but not both IMHO. Will ISU's blowout win over Creighton be the deciding factor there? Frankly, the MVC should be happy if it gets 2 bids. And the MVC may lose that bid because NCAA room must be made for South Carolina, Boston College, and Penn State. What about Arizona and USC (both 9-9 in the Pac-10), both on the wrong side of the bubble. Are they any different than Minnesota and Michigan (both 9-9 in the Big Ten)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 A final point- where were these STL media types when a Rich Grawer SLU team that included Anthony Bonner, Roland Gray, and Monroe Douglass, that was 24-9 on Selection Sunday, that had an RPI of 47, was left out of the NCAA? The whole system is subject to scrutiny. As in many things, it is usually best to follow the money, in this case, spelled BC$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 We all know that a BCS team that was 18-1 when its best player went down, that went 6-4 without him, including winning the last 5 games without him, that has now won 6 straight, and that was ranked #22 nationally when its best player was injured, would be a mortal lock to make the NCAA Tournament. Big flaw in your argument. An 18-1 BCS team would be ranked higher than #22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Big flaw in your argument. An 18-1 BCS team would be ranked higher than #22. True. I hope the Gaels get in, I think they deserve it, but I won't be losing any sleep over it. I've tried to state their case. I'm infinitely more concerned about our Billikens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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