Hinson out at MSU and get this

[Box and Won]

If Brad did get the Missouri State job, he'd probably have to watch Kramer a few more times before he offered him.

He just now finally got around to offering Stemler.

[Pistol]

1. Yes but Brad didn't have a new arena when he was HERE

2. MVC / A-10 are equal in strength, my point is that none of the kids in the surrounging 6 state area give a damn about Dusquene, St Bonnie, etc, travel is a JOKE (a lot of posters that support the A-10 complained of the St Joe - St Bonnie turnaround and travel), the kids lose a lot more school time playing in and east coast league, there are no kids from the area that everyone recognizes in the A-10, the REFS in the A-10 hate us midwestern hillbillys...

3. Not a major point, took my son to tour just SLU a few yrs ago, he hated it, went elsewhere, SLU campus has improved, sure, but surrounding areas are

pathetic! Chouteau, N. Grand, give me a break, still awful! MO State has Ozarks, etc! SLU has major city attractions, so there is an offset...

4. True, state school has jock courses for athletes if they are struggling academically, SLU does not have the lower-tier courses and majors

5. When Brad was HERE he spent too much time wathching his son! Good father, poor for SLU recruiting

I agree on 1, 4, and 5, but...

2. The "surrounding 6 state area" argument is kind of cheap. Naturally, kids who live in the cities that MVC schools are in are going to know more about them than small private schools on the east coast. I guarantee no kid in New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Virginia, North Carolina, etc. knows or cares about Valley schools except what they might catch on ESPN this time of year. St. Louis kids don't exactly clamor to wind up in Springfield, Peoria, Carbondale, Evansville, Wichita, Bloomington-Normal, Des Moines, Cedar Falls, Terre Haute, or Omaha (the best of the bunch). I'm from St. Louis and applied to multiple A10 schools (SLU was still in CUSA) and never even considered for one second any school in the Valley. Then again, my test scores weren't in the bottom 20%, either.

3. So you're arguing for Springfield, MO (!) over St. Louis in terms of surrounding areas- wow. There is very little to do in Springfield itself, and the surrounding areas are questionable at best. Say what you will about the Ozarks, but it's still more redneck-infested than a NASCAR event- not the people I want to spend my free time with if I'm a college student. What else is within a short drive of Springfield other than small dime-a-dozen southern Missouri towns? Oh yeah, Branson- "Las Vegas if it were run by Ned Flanders." That wouldn't even be fun for me after I turned 80 and dimentia had kicked in with full force. It's even less fun for a college kid. St. Louis isn't New York City, but it's one of the largest 20 metropolitan areas in the US with all the cultural attractions you'd expect and more free public attractions than any other American city outside of D.C. And it's a beer town. St. Louis 1, Springfield 0.

[Clock_Tower]

What are you talking about? The entire reason MSU would have to fire a coach and hire a new one is that they are feeling incredible pressure to have a successful Bball program. Why would they build a new palace for just fun? Bobby Knight has neither the youth, energy, or respect of the current basketball playing generation to be an attractive choice for anything other than a high-level asst. He does have a fishing pole, or so we are constantly told.

Now you're just plain silly. Knight had been doing a rather good job at Texas Tech. Has he not been recruiting the "current playing generation" while at TT? I would argue that while he did not recruit at the level of of Texas and KU while at TT, he did recruit good and solid players. If he could continue to successfully recruit the type of players he did to TT (not sure he could because they wanted not only to play for him but also in the Big 12) to a school such as MSU, he would have considerable success at MSU.

Not to diminish MSU in anyway or to suggest that there is no pressure at MSU; however, if you think the MSU job carries the same pressures as the IU job/most Big 10 schools, you just don't understand.

[MB73]

I agree on 1, 4, and 5, but...

2. The "surrounding 6 state area" argument is kind of cheap. Naturally, kids who live in the cities that MVC schools are in are going to know more about them than small private schools on the east coast. I guarantee no kid in New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Virginia, North Carolina, etc. knows or cares about Valley schools except what they might catch on ESPN this time of year. St. Louis kids don't exactly clamor to wind up in Springfield, Peoria, Carbondale, Evansville, Wichita, Bloomington-Normal, Des Moines, Cedar Falls, Terre Haute, or Omaha (the best of the bunch). I'm from St. Louis and applied to multiple A10 schools (SLU was still in CUSA) and never even considered for one second any school in the Valley. Then again, my test scores weren't in the bottom 20%, either.

3. So you're arguing for Springfield, MO (!) over St. Louis in terms of surrounding areas- wow. There is very little to do in Springfield itself, and the surrounding areas are questionable at best. Say what you will about the Ozarks, but it's still more redneck-infested than a NASCAR event- not the people I want to spend my free time with if I'm a college student. What else is within a short drive of Springfield other than small dime-a-dozen southern Missouri towns? Oh yeah, Branson- "Las Vegas if it were run by Ned Flanders." That wouldn't even be fun for me after I turned 80 and dimentia had kicked in with full force. It's even less fun for a college kid. St. Louis isn't New York City, but it's one of the largest 20 metropolitan areas in the US with all the cultural attractions you'd expect and more free public attractions than any other American city outside of D.C. And it's a beer town. St. Louis 1, Springfield 0.

I'll give you "3" by a slight margin ("more redneck infested than a NASCAR event"... good stuff) but "2" MVC is still better for SLU and for recruiting players for SLU than A-10 for the many reasons I listed earlier.

[Pistol]

I'll give you "3" by a slight margin ("more redneck infested than a NASCAR event"... good stuff) but "2" MVC is still better for SLU and for recruiting players for SLU than A-10 for the many reasons I listed earlier.

One thing I forgot to remark on was your comment about A10 refs- true, we do get hosed by them. But we also get absolutely pounded by Valley refs whenever we venture into Springfield or Carbondale. We get the "you ain't from 'round here, are ya?" treatment big time. It probably wouldn't be so bad from them if we were actually part of that conference, but as it stands now they are merciless to us big city folk.

[billiken_roy]

now that it has been a couple of days since the official news broke that hinson is out, we have seen that missouri state had no plan ready to go. this is actually worse than slu's move last year imo. at least at slu you have the "big city" attraction of st louis vs what springfield?

i was sure they had a candidate in hand. and maybe they do but it is sworn to secrecy until after the tourney or something. but missouri state needs to hit a home run imo. if they go for an untested assistant or a low level coach trying to move up, i dont see how that is going to sell tickets either unless they just happened to stumble onto the next billy donovan.

hinson should have been given the chance to sell the new arena and the extended budget. the guy averaged 19 wins a season and seemed to be a very entertaining guy. is it his fault it is tough to convince a kid from the bronx to move to springfield? tough sell regardless imo.

it will really be interesting to see what plays out. giving the job to jay spoonhour isnt going to bring back spoon.

[kshoe]

now that it has been a couple of days since the official news broke that hinson is out, we have seen that missouri state had no plan ready to go. this is actually worse than slu's move last year imo. at least at slu you have the "big city" attraction of st louis vs what springfield?

i was sure they had a candidate in hand. and maybe they do but it is sworn to secrecy until after the tourney or something. but missouri state needs to hit a home run imo. if they go for an untested assistant or a low level coach trying to move up, i dont see how that is going to sell tickets either unless they just happened to stumble onto the next billy donovan.

hinson should have been given the chance to sell the new arena and the extended budget. the guy averaged 19 wins a season and seemed to be a very entertaining guy. is it his fault it is tough to convince a kid from the bronx to move to springfield? tough sell regardless imo.

it will really be interesting to see what plays out. giving the job to jay spoonhour isnt going to bring back spoon.

Roy, I don't get this post at all. Its been what 8 years with no NCAA appearances. How long is long enough? Once the decision was made to go a different direction it seems like the timing is just fine. They didn't let it drag the way SLU did last year which served no purpose. In all likelihood they will be looking to hire a coach from a low major that is still playing or an assistant from a high major that is still playing. Either way, it is completely poor taste to chase coaches while their current team is still playing. It happens way too much in college football and is one of the more dispicable practices in college sports. Why are you criticizing them for not having a new coach less than 2 days after they fired Hinson?

[billiken_roy]

Roy, I don't get this post at all. Its been what 8 years with no NCAA appearances. How long is long enough? Once the decision was made to go a different direction it seems like the timing is just fine. They didn't let it drag the way SLU did last year which served no purpose. In all likelihood they will be looking to hire a coach from a low major that is still playing or an assistant from a high major that is still playing. Either way, it is completely poor taste to chase coaches while their current team is still playing. It happens way too much in college football and is one of the more dispicable practices in college sports. Why are you criticizing them for not having a new coach less than 2 days after they fired Hinson?

he got screwed 2006 and 2007. those were very worthy teams. i dont know enough about the missouri state history prior to that, but winning 19 per year and not being in is probably more a statement that the conference is more to blame than missouri state performance. that is a nice record.

again, if they hit a home run and bring in a big name great. otherwise i still say you are better going slow and steady and throwing all that support that now will come with the new arena and increased budget to the guy that has been a positive influence than bringing in an unknown. otherwise i'm betting that they will likely be hiring a new coach 2013 again. i just dont agree or understand the mentality behind musical coaches just for the sake of change.

[Clock_Tower]

Did I miss the "official" firing? 9 years without an NCAA Tourney says enough.

Second, just imagine how unruly the IU fans would be if their Hoosiers went 9 years without an appearance. Still think there are the same pressures at IU and MSU.

Third, I feel bad for Hinson since he did come ever so close and seems like a genuine guy. In the end though, his teams never won the conference tourney and usually did not make it to the conferance final game. By not making it to the finals AND then have soft schedule/inflated RPI, that is the reason MSU never made it. Remember, these 9 years were during the years that the Valley often sent 2 and 3 teams unlike those years when when the Valley only got 1 bid. Remember the years when Rich Herron and SIUC (regular season champs) would be sitting home while Spoon and his Bears would win the conference tournament and go to the NCAA Tourney?

[billiken_roy]

Did I miss the "official" firing? 9 years without an NCAA Tourney says enough.

Second, just imagine how unruly the IU fans would be if their Hoosiers went 9 years without an appearance. Still think there are the same pressures at IU and MSU.

Third, I feel bad for Hinson since he did come ever so close and seems like a genuine guy. In the end though, his teams never won the conference tourney and usually did not make it to the conferance final game. By not making it to the finals AND then have soft schedule/inflated RPI, that is the reason MSU never made it. Remember, these 9 years were during the years that the Valley often sent 2 and 3 teams unlike those years when when the Valley only got 1 bid. Remember the years when Rich Herron and SIUC (regular season champs) would be sitting home while Spoon and his Bears would win the conference tournament and go to the NCAA Tourney?

i think spoon only won the conference tourney once, 1992.

[billiken_roy]

p.s. as soon as spoon did win the conference tourney his one and only time, he got the hell out of dodge as well. likely realizing the near impossibility of it happening again.

[kshoe]

he got screwed 2006 and 2007. those were very worthy teams. i dont know enough about the missouri state history prior to that, but winning 19 per year and not being in is probably more a statement that the conference is more to blame than missouri state performance. that is a nice record.

again, if they hit a home run and bring in a big name great. otherwise i still say you are better going slow and steady and throwing all that support that now will come with the new arena and increased budget to the guy that has been a positive influence than bringing in an unknown. otherwise i'm betting that they will likely be hiring a new coach 2013 again. i just dont agree or understand the mentality behind musical coaches just for the sake of change.

Roy, there is a saying in poker that you got to know when to hold them and you got to know when to fold em. Holding on to a coach that can't get you to the promised land (whatever that may be for any given program) after 5+ years is kind of like refusing to fold a bad hand. Sometimes its best just to reshuffle the cards and hope for something new.

I'm no expert on Mo St. but they did have the Sweet 16 run by Alford in 99 and were a regular in the NCAA tourney under Spoon. I can understand why their fans feel they can do better than 0 NCAA births in 8 years.

[Clock_Tower]

i think spoon only won the conference tourney once, 1992.

I stand corrected. For some reason, my "memory" is of Spoon coming to town and winning the Tourney. MSU lost in the final game (big) in 1991 and then won in 1992.

Also, I see that MSU/Barry lost the final game in 2004 (2OT) to UNI and in 2005 (big) to Creighton. After blowing these 2 chances, MSU/Barry then bowed out the next 2 years in the semi-finals. Again, if he had made it the finals in 2006 and/or 2007 and then played the title game(s) close, MSU would have made the tourney.

[ACE]

Yes, in an intereview Hinson said he took over right after Alford went to the sweet 16 and he was there 9 years without a trip to the big dance. They probably deserved to go a couple of years ago, but Hinson was given a long time and it appeared the talent base was starting to erode there too. Also, 19 wins is not what it used to be. Last year, nearly 100 teams reached 20 or more wins. They did the right thing in pulling the trigger now. There still is time to get a coach in place and salvage something during the spring signing period.

[billiken_roy]

if they hire a "spoon" (imo his son isnt charlie and is totally unproven) that indeed gets to the tourney 5 out of 9 years (4 years he won the regular season and got an at large berth and only once did he win the tourney) that is a homerun. i would agree with that move. but today you arent hearing anymore about big names it is now about jay spoonhour or an emerging asst.

btw, alford only got to one ncaa tourney and he too cashed in his chips immediately and moved onto iowa.

all i am saying is that imo they are better off with hinson than starting over. hinson might have finally been able to get over the hump if he got the new arena and the increased budgets.

[slufanskip]

Roy, there is a saying in poker that you got to know when to hold them and you got to know when to fold em. Holding on to a coach that can't get you to the promised land (whatever that may be for any given program) after 5+ years is kind of like refusing to fold a bad hand. Sometimes its best just to reshuffle the cards and hope for something new.

I'm no expert on Mo St. but they did have the Sweet 16 run by Alford in 99 and were a regular in the NCAA tourney under Spoon. I can understand why their fans feel they can do better than 0 NCAA births in 8 years.

Is it 8 years? The Post said 9 years. Either way, it's 8 or 9 years with no bids. How many MVC bids were given out in that time? How many times in the 10 years before that did Mo State go? I don't know the answers to those questions but if I had to guess without looking it up I'd say In the 10 years previous to Hinson they were in what 3 or 4 times? And in the 9 years Hinson was there the MVC had probably in the low 20's bid's in the tourney and Hinson had zero. He seems like a good guy, but he didn't get the job done. Not making a change is like saying Hey, were #75 and were proud. We don't think we can be any better despite the fact that they were better in the 10 years leading up to it.

[Clock_Tower]

Yes, in an intereview Hinson said he took over right after Alford went to the sweet 16 and he was there 9 years without a trip to the big dance. They probably deserved to go a couple of years ago, but Hinson was given a long time and it appeared the talent base was starting to erode there too. Also, 19 wins is not what it used to be. Last year, nearly 100 teams reached 20 or more wins. They did the right thing in pulling the trigger now. There still is time to get a coach in place and salvage something during the spring signing period.

Ace. You're right. Believe their talent level was sinking.

Most recently, the Laurie kids seemed to just not reach the expectations that were established for them. Good but not great players. Probably nice kids, but when a kid fails to impress at another school (Mizzou), it does not seam real likely that he would then star at his next school (MSU). No doubt, many most likely recalled both Laurie kids' high school days, the Laurie kids were local "hereos" in Springfield, the fact that Laurie must have been good because he went to Mizzou, tthe fact that it didn't work out because of Quin (never blame on the kid), MSU is "a level of play" below Mizzou and therefore he will start for Barry Hinson. Could have been a large part of Barry's firing.

[billiken_roy]

Is it 8 years? The Post said 9 years. Either way, it's 8 or 9 years with no bids. How many MVC bids were given out in that time? How many times in the 10 years before that did Mo State go? I don't know the answers to those questions but if I had to guess without looking it up I'd say In the 10 years previous to Hinson they were in what 3 or 4 times? And in the 9 years Hinson was there the MVC had probably in the low 20's bid's in the tourney and Hinson had zero. He seems like a good guy, but he didn't get the job done. Not making a change is like saying Hey, were #75 and were proud. We don't think we can be any better despite the fact that they were better in the 10 years leading up to it.

previous two coaches before hinson were alford and mark berenson. one ncaa team between them. spoon's their gold standard. he was the only one that had any kind of success actually that was better than what hinson produced.

[Pistol]

now that it has been a couple of days since the official news broke that hinson is out, we have seen that missouri state had no plan ready to go. this is actually worse than slu's move last year imo. at least at slu you have the "big city" attraction of st louis vs what springfield?

i was sure they had a candidate in hand. and maybe they do but it is sworn to secrecy until after the tourney or something. but missouri state needs to hit a home run imo. if they go for an untested assistant or a low level coach trying to move up, i dont see how that is going to sell tickets either unless they just happened to stumble onto the next billy donovan.

hinson should have been given the chance to sell the new arena and the extended budget. the guy averaged 19 wins a season and seemed to be a very entertaining guy. is it his fault it is tough to convince a kid from the bronx to move to springfield? tough sell regardless imo.

it will really be interesting to see what plays out. giving the job to jay spoonhour isnt going to bring back spoon.

Two things, Roy:

1. Missouri State fired Hinson a lot earlier than SLU fired Soderberg. The timing of Soderberg's firing made it a lot more head-scratching than had it been done in early March like Hinson's. By the time Brad was let go, most coaches had already made their moves. For that reason, it didn't make sense to most people, not knowing we had a potential ace in our sleeve with Majerus. The athletic department at MSU has given itself a lot more time to find someone by firing Hinson early in case they don't have someone waiting in the wings already.

2. You put in another thread that they got screwed in 2006 and 2007. Their final RPI in 2006 was 22, making them the team with the highest RPI in history not to make the Tournament. Hearbreaking- yes. Screwed- no way. The 2005-06 edition of Missouri State was all smoke and mirrors. They didn't play anybody, and they didn't beat anybody. All they did was expose the big flaws in the RPI system and the committee fortunately saw through it. Last year they had the win over Wisconsin but then shot themselves in the foot by laying an egg in the Valley tournament. 22-10 is very respectable, but if you have double digit losses in a non-major conference and bow out early in your conference tournament, you just made the committee's decision a lot easier.

[Clock_Tower]

Two things, Roy:

1. Missouri State fired Hinson a lot earlier than SLU fired Soderberg. The timing of Soderberg's firing made it a lot more head-scratching than had it been done in early March like Hinson's. By the time Brad was let go, most coaches had already made their moves. For that reason, it didn't make sense to most people, not knowing we had a potential ace in our sleeve with Majerus. The athletic department at MSU has given itself a lot more time to find someone by firing Hinson early in case they don't have someone waiting in the wings already.

2. You put in another thread that they got screwed in 2006 and 2007. Their final RPI in 2006 was 22, making them the team with the highest RPI in history not to make the Tournament. Hearbreaking- yes. Screwed- no way. The 2005-06 edition of Missouri State was all smoke and mirrors. They didn't play anybody, and they didn't beat anybody. All they did was expose the big flaws in the RPI system and the committee fortunately saw through it. Last year they had the win over Wisconsin but then shot themselves in the foot by laying an egg in the Valley tournament. 22-10 is very respectable, but if you have double digit losses in a non-major conference and bow out early in your conference tournament, you just made the committee's decision a lot easier.

Totally agree.

[jjray]

Before everyone dismisses Bob Knight as being the next coach at MSU, be honest and ask youselves how much of a chance did anyone truly believe last spring that RM would become our coach. People around the nation are still shocked and surprised. RM obviously did not pick SLU for its past success, tradition, TV exposure and conference affiliation. Instead, it appears he picked SLU because he could be close to his mother, back at a Jesuit school and also be the "big fish" in a "smaller pond".

Same thing COULD be true for Knight. Even though we all acknowledge that Elgin' Valley is the greatest conference in the country , the pressures at a Valley school would be nowhere near the pressures felt at IU (Big 10) or TT (Big 12). At this stage in his life, possibly, Knight would enjoy working with friends and coaching kids without the incredible pressures. Stranger things have happened before.

This makes sense ... but was there really any pressure on Knight at TT? I think he could have been coach for life @ TT. Maybe he just "retired" to hand the team over to his son and now is looking for a sleepy place with good fishing close by where he can be god (small "g"). As you said, stranger things have happened. Especially if he is paid the big bucks to go to sleepy hollow.

[Clock_Tower]

This makes sense ... but was there really any pressure on Knight at TT? I think he could have been coach for life @ TT. Maybe he just "retired" to hand the team over to his son and now is looking for a sleepy place with good fishing close by where he can be god (small "g"). As you said, stranger things have happened. Especially if he is paid the big bucks to go to sleepy hollow.

JJ. As to coaching at IU, Knight won the tournament in 1976 and 1981. Just when people thought he was finished, he won again in 1987. These wins did buy him some security but in 2000, the 1987 championship seemed along, the quality of players seemed to slip a bit and the post-season success seemed to stall. All during his career, though, he continued to win games and conference championships. Almost seemed like he had just reloaded prior to his firing in 2000. Consistent keeps pressures down.

As to coaching at TT, I am not the expert but I've read several posts which say that Knight, in fact, was feeling alot of pressure at TT and that it was not certain if he would be back even as early as next year. Again, I defer to others in that I am only repeating.

[Billiken Law]

As to coaching at TT, I am not the expert but I've read several posts which say that Knight, in fact, was feeling alot of pressure at TT and that it was not certain if he would be back even as early as next year. Again, I defer to others in that I am only repeating.

Knight wasn't feeling pressure at TT, there is no pressure there, it's a football school. He was frustrated by the inability to draw consistantly but most of all, he wanted to assure that his kid was given the job - what better way to do it than resign in the middle of the season to give Pat and "audition." Kind of like how Bennett quit to give Soderberg a shot at the Wisconsin job when it became apparent they weren't going to heed his wish to give him the job in the offseason.

[brianstl]

Knight wasn't feeling pressure at TT, there is no pressure there, it's a football school. He was frustrated by the inability to draw consistantly but most of all, he wanted to assure that his kid was given the job - what better way to do it than resign in the middle of the season to give Pat and "audition." Kind of like how Bennett quit to give Soderberg a shot at the Wisconsin job when it became apparent they weren't going to heed his wish to give him the job in the offseason.

TT should hire Gregory.

[Bearvision]

From the Fox Sports article,

"The opening will be one of the most sought-after in the country, especially with the school opening a brand-new facility next season."

I highly doubt it. Not with Indiana and LSU open. I'm sure other more appealing jobs will open up as well.

I don't think you quite understand how good of a job that Missouri St. is in basketball. I dare say it is at least on par with LSU, due to that school being a football school, ignoring basketball for the most part, seeing the expectations put on the coach there (they were just in the Final Four a few years ago and they fire their coach?).

It is not Indiana, but that's why the guy said "one of." I don't hate SLU, and don't downplay their program, so I just can't understand why some SLU fans do that to the MSU program.

The money is all over the place here, and they will pay it. I'd love for Kellogg of Memphis to come here and coach.