Package Deals

[Hardball]

We have talked about this issue in the recent past and I think this article illustrates the efforts other Top 25 programs are willing to go to remain at the top of their sport. This article is about football but could easily be about basketball. As a matter of fact Huggins is quoted at the end of the article. I know some will discount this artcle because of Huggins presence but the point remains all Top 25 programs are coming up with creative LEGAL ways to improve their programs.

I was encouraged by the story of Brad offering all five players at once because it shows an element of recruiting creativity we have not seen in the past. The real question will be will BS continue to remain creative and do everything "within the rules" to get the Billikens into the Top 25 consistantly. Only time will tell.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2586464

[Billiken Rich]

will always go on, unless the NCAA grows two big brass ones or, more realistically, pigs start to fly.....

Do you really want Brad or any SLU coach to be on the same list with Huggy, Lavin, and Calipari? I don't want the wins bad enough to want that. More importantly the stepping over or at least straddling of the line, you are advocating isn't required.

[Taj79]

The fact that this article mentions Danny Manning and the Kansas days makes it legit in my book. As well as the Milt Wagner story. I've been bemoaning this loosely-veiled practice for some time.

For the young-uns, believe it or not, Saint Louis University did this I believe at least twice in my recent memories. I could be wrong but maybe not. The first might have been Ron Coleman's hire from Vashon. Didn't he have Johnnie Parker with him at Vashon? Its probably a stretch and I'd hate to give us credit for creative thinking way back in the early- to mid-70s.

The other one was the Rich Grawer/Jackson Wheeler hiring, was it not? Didn't Wheeler come with two of the top rated JUCOs that year in Tony Manuel and Travis Tadysak? Without getting into all the details, that never worked out, did it? Maybe a third one, probably the biggest one of all, was Spoon's hiring a year early of Larry Hughes' coach, Derrick thomas. Am I up on all those facts?

It happens and I believe that for the most part, its wrong. Whatever happen to Ed Manning? Back driving a truck? Or is he driving some basketball team to heights of greatness? Is Milt still with Calipari?

For now I'll say its legal and agree with Hardball that if its legal and you don't employ it, well, shame on you. But that's a personal decision that rests with the integrity of the coach and the school. I can't see us following in the footsteps of programs like Arkansas, K State, Cincinnati, Memphis, Kansas and some others. Kansas is tough as I've always respected that program and thought the Manning thing was a blip because Travelin' Larry Brown was the perpetrator.

I remember Dan Kendra being the Qb of the future coming out of Pennsylvania High School football. JoPa was on the hot seat, needed this kid to come and lead Penn State back to its previous lofty heights. Kendra went to Florida State, got hurt, and turned into a one-dimensional fullback, never to be heard of again.

Its a crap shoot and you take your chances. As long as its legal and the men in charge can look at themselves in the mirror each morning, fine by me. But its no given guarantee to work either.

Here's wanting to be a proud sponsor of Saint Louis University "Fab Five" of 2008-2009.

[Taj79]

With Myles Brand and the scrutiny of this practice making ESPN, I expect that the NCAA will do something sooner or later. They finally got around to investigating and shuttering some of those questionable "academic prep schools" popular here on the East Coast.

The NCAA is like any other huge dinosaur in today's wrold ..... punch it in the nose in January and its tail moves in December.

[billiken_roy]

taj, i believe milt is still at memphis. that is a surprise to me, unless the need to keep the smoke billowing aroung the wagner days at memphis is that strong. which wouldnt surprise me. i have long believed that wagner was calipari's largest soul sell ever and he has had a few of them.

my favorite billiken package deal gone bad was the robertson boys. spoon was backed into the corner to offer both when he badly wanted ryan robertson. we all know how that one turned out. while the younger robertson was an ok player, he wasnt ryan robertson. and he never developed enough to ever be a starting player for the billikens.

football package deals are easier simply because of roster sizes of a football team. it is only common sense you can hide a non-contributor amongst a 100 scholarship athletes as opposed to 13.

i am not saying we shouldnt ever try a package deal. the right deal will more than pay off. just ask marquette with their blankston wade deal. blankston ended up transferring, wade stuck around and carried marquette to the final four. but the point is, it is dangerous business imo and as taj points out, hasnt worked for slu going back even before grawer and including spoon.

[Billiken Rich]

I don't know that I have any ethical issues at all with a multi PLAYER package deal. Hiring parents, coaches, and hangers-on to get kids is pretty creepy. It reminds me of that scene from "Blue Chips" where the player asks the coach if his mom will have to give up her new house and job if the kid transfers.....

[kshoe]

about the Robertsons and I believe you are wrong. It just doesn't follow logical sense.

So lets say Spoon did offer Troy as a soon-to-be junior in order to get Ryan, a soon-to-be senior to come during the summer when Ryan was going to decide. Then Ryan decides to go to KU. Fine.

If Charlie didn't think Troy could play why in the world didn't he pull the scholarship? Troy didn't commit until right before his senior year so that meant the offer was outstanding for an entire year. Even if you diddn't want to formally pull the offer to Troy you could have stopped calling, etc. Spoon didn't do that.

The fact is, Spoon thought Troy could play. He averaged nearly 30 points per game in h.s. and I even heard a few people speculate that Troy had the possibility of being a better college player than Ryan because he was bigger and stronger.

The truth is, Troy played the same position as another local star, Chris Carawell, and was our back-up plan to losing him. Although Troy committed before Carawell did his hat picking show, many of us knew that his committment did not bode well for the Carawell decision.

Unless you have some proof on the Robertson package deal I think you should stop using it as an example. It just doesn't make sense. If Troy had been the elder then maybe I could see the logic in your theory.

[bauman]

Taj, I may be wrong, but didn't Parker come out of Central HS rather than Vashon? Where's V when you need him?

[billiken_roy]

i know i am NOT wrong on the robertson deal. at the time, my boss was the robertson's next door neighbor and was very good friends of the family.

pulling a scholarship offer is death to an up and coming program. other coaches would have used that instance against slu as long as charlie was the coach. his word has to be good or his credibility is shot.

that is why i laugh when vtime wants to offer everyone. if you offer, you better be willing to live up to it when it is accepted.

[Hardball]

Kshoe that is exactly how I remember the Robertson situation. And to be honest we have done alot worse than Troy the past five years.

As for the package deals wasn't SLU set up perfectly for the Cardinal Ritter trio until Coach Grawer and Coach Winfield got fired. I remeber there after the Grawer dismissal there was talk and strong suggestions to Spoon to keep Coach Winfield but he elcted to go in another direction. I truely believe if we could have held on with Grawer we could have gotten the Cardinal Ritter kids and Ryan Robertson.

Finally deals go on all the time. As good as Roy Williams is he took a Package deal to get Giddeon's. His integrity is beyound approach. So it can be done it just has to be done correctly. If it is good enough for Kansas it should be good enough for SLU.

[Billiken Law]

>i am not saying we shouldnt ever try a package deal. the

>right deal will more than pay off. just ask marquette with

>their blankston wade deal. blankston ended up transferring,

>wade stuck around and carried marquette to the final four.

There was no "package deal." Wade committed to Marquette, he called Blankson and told him, and Blankson decided to as well. Blankson's final 2 were MU and ND, Wade's MU and Illinois State. Wade was going to Marquette with or without Blankson. A "package deal" is when you offer someone you wouldn't usually offer to get someone else: i.e. Memphis offering Arthur Barclay to get Wagner. It's not uncommon for friends to decide to follow another to a school, it doesn't make it a "package deal."

[Major Majerus]

Thanks to Nark for the use of the Billiken

You are correct; this probably happened before V-Time was born...

[billiken_roy]

this article says they committed together.

http://dennisyork.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_...rk_archive.html

this article says that the then illinois state coach said he had to quit the chase because it was a package deal.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/jun/22/k...lways_big_name/

[3star_recruit]

Wow, Wade sure has come a long way from going 3 for 22 in a high school game. But that's what the greats do -- constantly refine their game and turn what were once weaknesses into strengths. He was a great player at Marquette but if you would told me that a guy who struggled regularly against Josh Fisher would be one of the top 5 players in the NBA three years into his career, I would have called you retarded. Mad props to Mr. Wade.

[kshoe]

I know you will argue that he had an excuse to pull the offers to Tatum and Ahearn because they were under the Romar regime but its not like pulled offers don't happen all the time, everywhere...

[kshoe]

Tatum and Hughes were a "package" deal as were Douglas and Gray, or Dooling and Gilbert at Mizzou. These were guys that played on the same h.s. team and wanted to go to college together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that so long as either would be good enough to get a scholarship on their own. If you have the scholarships and need quality players you'd be insane not to offer two quality players that want to play with eachother.

[billiken_roy]

you answered your own question. the tatum and ahearn offers were romar offers.

and even then, it is obvious just by the b.s. thrown at coach soderberg here about coach soderberg not honoring a previous coach's offer, how biting it is that a coach wouldnt stand by his own offer.

i would venture to say that unless the player has done something to deserve the retraction such as fail academically, or get in trouble with the law i beleive that it doesnt happen that much.

[billiken_roy]

kshoe, those are good package deals. as was blankson and wade. the illinois state coach didnt have the spots to make it a twosome though. thus had to duck out on blankson and thus lost wade.

again you answered your own point. sure make a package deal if you have two quality players. i have no problem with that.

coach soderberg's huge package offer of griffey, thompson, suggs, kramer, and brandenburg appears to be a great package deal. all are visualized as top area recruits in 2 (3 for griffey) years. again no problem with a package deal like that. my problem is taking the player that is obviously a much less player.

[ACE]

>Kshoe that is exactly how I remember the Robertson

>situation. And to be honest we have done alot worse than

>Troy the past five years.

>

I sure hope in the next 5 years, we can't look back and say we've done a lot worse than Troy Robertson. That's a depressing thought.

[billiken_roy]

to take ace's point a step further, hardball, what guard(s) has coach soderberg recruited that were less the player than what troy robertson was?

[BleacherBum593]

Coleman had C/F Lamont Turner, not Parker. IIRC, Coleman had a heck of a team with Turner, Roscoe Simmons and a kid by the name of Jimmy Clark, who went on to play at Arizona or Arizona State. Turner and Simmons got all the press, but Clark might have been the best one of the 3.

And speaking of package deals, didn't Ricky Frazier's coach at Charleston, MO, Haskins, get an asst. coaching job with SLU when Frazier came here for a year before moving onto Mizzou.

[slufanskip]

Is offering them at the same time ... the same as a package deal? I would consider a package deal ... taking one ... but you have to take the other

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

[Nate Latsch]

>I remember Dan Kendra being the Qb of the future coming out

>of Pennsylvania High School football. JoPa was on the hot

>seat, needed this kid to come and lead Penn State back to

>its previous lofty heights. Kendra went to Florida State,

>got hurt, and turned into a one-dimensional fullback, never

>to be heard of again.

I played against Dan Kendra in high school, when he was the national player of the year. He was a 6-foot-3, 230+-pound quarterback with 4.4 speed who could throw the ball 70-plus yards. Guy was a beast. He originally committed to Penn State, then ended up at Florida State. He played QB early in his career, then switched to fullback. He had a couple mishaps at FSU, including one with fireworks or something (don't remember the details). Kendra was drafted in the late rounds by the Colts, but retired from football during training camp that first year.

Taj,

I believe you meant to mention Kendra in connection with his high school girlfriend, Christy Cochran, who was a standout volleyball player and went to Penn State. There was a lot of talk that Kendra and Cochran were a package deal, but I don't believe that to be true. Cochran denied that stuff, and went on to have a very good career at Penn State, while Kendra went to FSU. (Interesting sidenote: Cochran also dated Cleveland Browns WR Joe Jurevicius at one point during her PSU days.)

Here's a press release from 2001 when Cochran was named an assistant coach at Texas:

http://www.texassports.com/mainpages/vb_pa..._070401_01.html

- Nate

[Hardball]

DARREN CLARKE for starters and Newbourne and JJ.....

[billiken_roy]

newborne and jj arent guards. i asked about guards. even so, even justin johnson's career scoring average approaches robertson's and newborne's as well.

as to clarke vs robertson

robertson minutes played per game for four years was 9, 12, 15, and 13. his points per game were 2.4, 2.4, 3.8, and 2.8

clarke as a freshman played 11 mpg and ave 2.1 ppg. as a sophomore he played 13 mpg and ave 3.9 ppg.

as a sophomore, clarke has a better scorer than troy robertson was any of his four years as a billiken.

if only there was such a thing as designated free throw shooter. that would have been troy robertson's niche. other than that, i guess he was pretty good at taking the ball out of bounds.