Swapshire

[thetorch]

Their website listed those players as alumni of the academy.

[VTIME]

>"Tommie always played pg in high school. Guys like Mark

>Howlett, Bennie Lewis and Demario Smith played the wing.

>Tommie was omly 6'0 his freshman year".

>

>Not totally true, Tommie always had the skills to play the

>point, however Coach Bennie Lewis used Tommie primarily at

>the 3 during his freshmen season. After Lewis' forced

>resignation Coach Brooks used Tommie at the 3 as Alonzo

>Nelson, Mark Howlett and Will Rodgers were the guards for

>Tommie's last 2 seasons. Tommie did however assumed the role

>of point-forward during crunch time.

>

>One other note*

>I don't believe Joseph Forte played with Blake in HS or

>college. Forte did play with the Kentucky guard Keith Bogans

You're wrong on the East St. Louis note, but probably right on the Forte thing, I just know he played with another NBA guy in high school. Tommie's freshman year, he barely got in. Having Nelson, Howlett, and Rodgers still didnt put Tommie off the ball. He was the pg. What games were you going to. I saw him play several times. He was always the pg. The only time he may have ever played off the ball was in AAU. He's always been a pg. I'll never forget how he ran that flawless ball-control offense against Hazelwood Central in the KMOX Shootout. Grimes and Tyus had their dunks, but Tommie won the war. The dunk by Grimes off the halfcourt alley oop from Tyus was great. When it comes to area players and lineups, this is my area of expertise. Tommie's junior year he was the pg Howlett was the 2nd of the starting guards and Tommie's senior year he was the pg, and Howlett was 2nd of the 3 starting guards and Gerald Bell was the other guard. The big men were Demario Smith, and the transfer Darian Luster from O'Fallon. Rodgers got some minutes as a 6th or 7th man, but Bell took his spot their senior year. Andre Brown was their center that year. I dont remember who the pf was. Tommie always ran the pg, and started at that position his sophomore through senior seasons. You forget that Tommie's former teammate Kelvin Mosby Jr played for Harris-Stowe last season. We talked about this stuff all the time, especially when SLU would come in our gym to practice. You are really mistaken on this one.

[VTIME]

>Their website listed those players as alumni of the academy.

IMG academy trains players in multiple sports. The alumni are anyone famous who trained at the facility. Those guys didnt attend IMG for school.

[billiken_roy]

david, i understand your post about basketball prowess (or not) of sluh, however my point was that it is a total sham (as was insinutated in an earlier post by someone) that academics entered into the decision. that is why i used sluh, which imo is the best academic school in the st louis area as an example.

if swapshire is as good athletically as has been advertised he will continue to get the needed exposure in aau.

hey dont get me wrong, if the tuition at IMG was similar to SLUH or Desmet, i wouldnt have a problem with it, but at 3 or 4x what a normal real ACADEMIC EXCELLENT school is tuitionwise, it seems you are just prepaying an agent more than getting any kind of guarantee.

if jared doesnt make it, will they be refunding his tens of thousands of dollars he overpaid to go to this supposed academy? no. all the parents are doing are paying for college now instead of four years from now and if jared ends up with a limiting injury and turns out not to be the player they think he could become they might have to pay that tuition again or worse yet, they cant afford it and he ends up at flo valley or not in college at all. wouldnt that be a shame.

ironically if a player develops on his own and goes the normal route to the nba path, img will be paying him to come there down the road.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I question that list, then. Larry Hughes and Jahidi White are on that list. Hughes attended CBC High School in St. Louis for four years and then went to Saint Louis for one year before going pro. White attended Cardinal Ritter for four years before going to Georgetown.

[VTIME]

Unrealistic that he would end up at Flo Valley, nearly impossible. His parents can afford for him to go to college whether he gets injured or not. The worst he could do is UMSL. He'll be just fine. Everyone keeps making a big deal about his size. They say at 6'7 180 he's too skinny. When the Pistons won the title Hamilton was listed at 6'7 175 and Prince was 6'9 190. Its how big you play. Earl Boykins is 5'5 135. Shaun Livingston came into the league at around 175lbs too and he couldn't bench press 135. He was still drafted #4 and looks to have a promising future. He really showed me something in the playoffs, the jumpshot was much improved.

[billiken_roy]

vtime, you do realize that dalejarr has proven to this board that he is a relative and mentor of tommy liddell? i.e. saying he is wrong about anything to do with tommy liddell is akin to telling us the sun doesnt come up in the morning.

[davidnark]

I agree. I fully expect my boys to go to school in the same town as me. Of course, I wouldn't count on either one being a big time basketball prospect.

[VTIME]

>vtime, you do realize that dalejarr has proven to this board

>that he is a relative and mentor of tommy liddell? i.e.

>saying he is wrong about anything to do with tommy liddell

>is akin to telling us the sun doesnt come up in the morning.

You can say whatever you want, I was at the games, I know people on his team and there are people on Harris-Stowe's team that played with him like Mosby and Griffin who played pg for Normandy and had to guard Liddell and got dunked on in the process during the 2002 MLK Shootout. If Jalejarr can't tell who's bringing the ball up the court, doing all the ballhandling and initiating the offense, too bad. He must be thinking of it as a traditional lineup. I guess that's why he's talking that point forward stuff. Tommie was always the pg and primary ballhandler. He may have proven something to you, but nothing to me. Does JaleJarr know the Bennie Lewis that works for Harris-Stowe, not the one that played for E. St. Louis recently or his father or grandfather. He raves about Tommie all the time too and speaks to him everytime they practice at Harris-Stowe.

[billiken_roy]

VTIME SAID,

"JaleJarr know the Bennie Lewis that works for Harris-Stowe, not the one that played for E. St. Louis recently or his father or grandfather. He raves about Tommie all the time too and speaks to him everytime they practice at Harris-Stowe."

i assume you mean the scum street agent bl that tried to get tommie to go to unlv after he had already committed and signed to go to slu. if so, great source. he has character.

[billiken_roy]

btw, i also saw tommie play probably 15-20 times in high school. he would only help bring the ball up the floor against tough presses which eastside actually didnt see too often. normally would start low and come into a high post to receive passes from the guards. and like dalejarr said, if the game was on the line, he would pop out and take over the game more in a point forward mode. i cant say i ever saw him play pure point guard any game while at east side.

now if you are confusing the fact that the team would get him the ball asap and let him take over offensive trips that is true. but that is far from a point guard.

for the record as well. brooks runs probably as bad of an offense as any high school coach in the area. he doesnt really run and he doesnt really set anything up. so it would be hard to constitute much of anything from watching an east side game imo. the sooner he and the women's head coaches at eastside are fired the better.

as a side note, i hope shimmy is watching teandra smith though. imo, one of the best inside girls prospects in the metro area in a long long time.

[VTIME]

>btw, i also saw tommie play probably 15-20 times in high

>school. he would only help bring the ball up the floor

>against tough presses which eastside actually didnt see too

>often. normally would start low and come into a high post

>to receive passes from the guards. and like dalejarr said,

>if the game was on the line, he would pop out and take over

>the game more in a point forward mode. i cant say i ever

>saw him play pure point guard any game while at east side.

>

>now if you are confusing the fact that the team would get

>him the ball asap and let him take over offensive trips that

>is true. but that is far from a point guard.

>

>for the record as well. brooks runs probably as bad of an

>offense as any high school coach in the area. he doesnt

>really run and he doesnt really set anything up. so it

>would be hard to constitute much of anything from watching

>an east side game imo. the sooner he and the women's head

>coaches at eastside are fired the better.

>

>as a side note, i hope shimmy is watching teandra smith

>though. imo, one of the best inside girls prospects in the

>metro area in a long long time.

I agree 100% on Teandra Smith. Her sisters were good, but she's the best and ofcourse has the best upside. I was the at the KMOX shootout where they played Haz Central with Grimes and Tyus. He played pg the whole game. It was a boring affair where they held the ball. I also saw him everytime they played Vashon in the MLK Shootout and the year they played Normandy, and I still tease Griffin to this day when I see him about that dunk. He pressed Tommie all game from the pg position. Tommie played pg that whole game. This is probably less than 5% of his total games, but everytime I saw him he played pg, and everything about his game always said pg. He didnt look to shoot, just penetrate and take the shot if it's there or pass off if they double team. He's played the same way. He doesn't look any different to me now than in high school, except in high school, he looked more comfortable with the 3pt shot.

[VTIME]

>david, i understand your post about basketball prowess (or

>not) of sluh, however my point was that it is a total sham

>(as was insinutated in an earlier post by someone) that

>academics entered into the decision. that is why i used

>sluh, which imo is the best academic school in the st louis

>area as an example.

>

>if swapshire is as good athletically as has been advertised

>he will continue to get the needed exposure in aau.

>

>hey dont get me wrong, if the tuition at IMG was similar to

>SLUH or Desmet, i wouldnt have a problem with it, but at 3

>or 4x what a normal real ACADEMIC EXCELLENT school is

>tuitionwise, it seems you are just prepaying an agent more

>than getting any kind of guarantee.

>

>if jared doesnt make it, will they be refunding his tens of

>thousands of dollars he overpaid to go to this supposed

>academy? no. all the parents are doing are paying for

>college now instead of four years from now and if jared ends

>up with a limiting injury and turns out not to be the player

>they think he could become they might have to pay that

>tuition again or worse yet, they cant afford it and he ends

>up at flo valley or not in college at all. wouldnt that be a

>shame.

>

>ironically if a player develops on his own and goes the

>normal route to the nba path, img will be paying him to come

>there down the road.

Roy, I believe you. I just dont think we were seeing the same game or were just not seeing eye to eye. I saw Tommie having to force feed guys and create everything for both himself and the team because he had no help. It wasn't like Miles having Phillip Gilbert. Howlett was okay, but nothing special. He did more handling than Polk did at Vashon, so if Tommie's not a pg, Polk wasnt either in high school.

[JaleJarr]

"You can say whatever you want, I was at the games, I know

people on his team and there are people on Harris-Stowe's

team that played with him like Mosby".

Mosby played with Tommie during the time Alonzo Nelson was the undisputed PG.

"Griffin who played pg for Normandy and had to guard Liddell and got dunked on in the process during the 2002 MLK Shootout".

Scottie Pippen guarded Magic Johnson during the 91 Finals, does that make Pippen a point?

"If Jalejarr can't tell who's bringing the ball up the court, doing all the ballhandling and initiating the offense, too bad. He

must be thinking of it as a traditional lineup".

During Brooks' tenure, East Side hasn't ran an offense which required a single person to iniate the offense. If a team pressed with the exception of the 2003 Vashon game East Side didn't turn to Tommie and say break the press. They simply went to their press breaker and made cross court passes until they made halfcourt.

East Side mostly ran a motion offense. Any player could iniate.

"I guess that's why he's talking that point forward stuff. Tommie

was always the pg and primary ballhandler. He may have

proven something to you, but nothing to me".

Can you really afford to be this naive or stubborn?

"Does JaleJarr know the Bennie Lewis that works for Harris-Stowe, not the one that played for E. St. Louis recently or his father or

grandfather"?

If you are speaking about the left-handed shooting Lewis who played overseas, I don't personally know him. I remember him coming to the open gym during my HS years, but that's about it. Are you name dropping? What the point of bringing him up?

[JaleJarr]

"Demario Smith played the wing".

Smith never played the wing.

"Tommie's freshman year, he barely got in".

Although Tommie didn't start I wouldn't say he barely got in.

He played heavily during the 2nd half of most games. Coach Lewis

didn't feel Tommie was ready as a freshmen to run the team. He did however acknowledge to me during Tommie's senior yr. that I was right about Tommie having the ability to run the point.

"What games were you going to? "I saw him play several times. He was always the pg".

More than several, every game I didn't see in person, his dad normally recorded for me.

"I'll never forget how he ran that flawless ball-control offense against Hazelwood Central in the KMOX Shootout".

Although I attended that event, I must have missed the game.I don't remember East Side purposely running a ball control offense. I remember a poor shooting performance by East Side. I also remember Central running 2 -3 extra defenders at Tommie. Central's coach realized that if you took Tommie out of the offense East Side tended to struggle.

"When it comes to area players and lineups, this is my area of expertise".

Which is the problem. Every year lineups change, you simply don't have the storage space. That's why your brain spits out Joe Forte played with Steve Blake, Tommie barely played as a freshmen, Darian Luster transferred from O'Fallon when in fact he transferred from Cahokia.

"Tommie's junior year he was the pg Howlett was the 2nd of

the starting guards and Tommie's senior year he was the pg,

and Howlett was 2nd of the 3 starting guards and Gerald Bell

was the other guard".

Tommie was the 3 his junior year. He caught a helluva amount of oops from the starting pg Williford Rodgers. You may have been mistaken due to the fact that Tommie moved to the 1 when they faced Central at the Shootout. What you didn't realized was during their run to the Lincoln, Il. Thanksgiving Tourney starting pg Will Rodgers suffered a serious shoulder injury. It lingered for the whole year, this forced Brooks to move Tommie to the one. Even then Tommie wasn't leading the break on offense as he was the team leading rebounder. That's where the point forward stuff comes in.

"The big men were Demario Smith, and the transfer Darian Luster from O'Fallon".

I thought Smith was a wing according to you. Luster again was from Cahokia.

"Rodgers got some minutes as a 6th or 7th man, but Bell took his spot their senior year".

Bell didn't take his spot, a shoulder injury ceded that spot.

"Andre Brown was their center that year".

Brown was a year ahead of Tommie.

"I dont remember who the pf was".

But you are the authority. How could you not know. I keep it simple. I only keep up with my nephew. Much easier.

Senior Season Starters

PG Williford Rodgers(before injury)

2G Mark Howlett

SF Tommie Liddell

PF Darian Luster

C Demario Smith

Tommie always ran the pg, and started at that position his sophomore through senior seasons.

Soph Seasons Starters

PG Alonzo Nelson Jr.

2G Tommie Liddell

SF Damien Banks

PF Brandon Stallings

C Andre Brown

Junior Season

PG Williford Rodgers

2G Mark Howlett

SF Tommie Liddell

PF Andre Brown

C Demario Smith

"You forget that Tommie's former teammate Kelvin Mosby Jr played for Harris-Stowe last season. We talked about this stuff all the time, especially when SLU would come in our gym to practice. You are really mistaken on this one".

Too much data on the brain.

[VTIME]

I trust Mosby. Lewis is lefthanded. He's in his 40's. I dont know about all the overseas stuff. He just used to help out at Tommie's middle school or something like that and Tommie always goes out of his way to talk to him when he sees him at Harris-Stowe. Tommie growing didnt change his position.

[VTIME]

>"Demario Smith played the wing".

>

>Smith never played the wing.

>

>"Tommie's freshman year, he barely got in".

>

>Although Tommie didn't start I wouldn't say he barely got

>in.

>He played heavily during the 2nd half of most games. Coach

>Lewis

>didn't feel Tommie was ready as a freshmen to run the team.

>He did however acknowledge to me during Tommie's senior that

>I was right about Tommie having the ability to run the

>point.

>

>"What games were you going to? "I saw him play several

>times. He was always the pg".

>

>More than several, every game I didn't see in person, his

>dad normally recorded for me.

>

>

>"I'll never forget how he ran that flawless ball-control

>offense against Hazelwood Central in the KMOX Shootout".

>

>Although I attended that event, I must have missed the

>game.I don't remember East Side purposely running a ball

>control offense. I remember a poor shooting performance by

>East Side. I also remember Central running 2 -3 extra

>defenders at Tommie. Central's coach realized that if you

>took Tommie out of the offense East Side tended to struggle.

>

>"When it comes to area players and lineups, this is my area

>of expertise".

>

>Which is the problem. Every year lineups change, you simply

>don't have the storage space. That's why your brain spits

>out Joe Forte played with Steve Blake, Tommie barely played

>as a freshmen, Darian Luster transferred from O'Fallon when

>in fact he transferred from Cahokia.

>

>"Tommie's junior year he was the pg Howlett was the 2nd of

>the starting guards and Tommie's senior year he was the pg,

>and Howlett was 2nd of the 3 starting guards and Gerald Bell

>was the other guard".

>

>Tommie was the 3 his junior year. He caught a helluva amount

>of oops from the starting pg Williford Rodgers. You may have

>been mistaken due to the fact that Tommie moved to the 1

>when they faced Central at the Shootout. What you didn't

>realized was during their run to the Lincoln, Il.

>Thanksgiving Tourney starting pg Will Rodgers suffered a

>serious shoulder injury. It lingered for the whole year,

>this forced Brooks to move Tommie to the one. Even then

>Tommie wasn't leading the break on offense as he was the

>team leading rebounder. That's where the point forward stuff

>comes in.

>

>

>

>

>"The big men were Demario Smith, and the transfer Darian

>Luster from O'Fallon".

>

>I thought Smith was a wing according to you. Luster again

>was from Cahokia.

>

>"Rodgers got some minutes as a 6th or 7th man, but Bell

>took his spot their senior year".

>

>Bell didn't take his spot, a shoulder injury ceded that

>spot.

>

>"Andre Brown was their center that year".

>

>Brown was a year ahead of Tommie.

>

>"I dont remember who the pf was".

>

>But you are the authority. How could you not know. I keep it

>simple. I only keep up with my nephew. Much easier.

>Senior Season Starters

>PG Williford Rodgers(before injury)

>2G Mark Howlett

>SF Tommie Liddell

>PF Darian Luster

>C Demario Smith

>

>

>Tommie always ran the pg, and started at that position his

>sophomore through senior seasons.

>Soph Seasons Starters

>PG Alonzo Nelson Jr.

>2G Tommie Liddell

>SF Damien Banks

>PF Brandon Stallings

>C Andre Brown

>

>Junior Season

>PG Williford Rodgers

>2G Mark Howlett

>SF Tommie Liddell

>PF Andre Brown

>C Demario Smith

>

>

>"You forget that Tommie's former teammate Kelvin Mosby Jr

>played for Harris-Stowe last season. We talked about this

>stuff all the time, especially when SLU would come in our

>gym to practice. You are really mistaken on this one".

>

>Too much data in on the brain.

I mentioned that Brown was the center his junior year and Luster his senior year. You're right about Cahokia, I'm sorry I get my Illinois schools mixed up, I dont live over there, but I do remember Luster having a sister, and I knew she either went to Cahokia or O'Fallon and that he probably came from the same school. It was Xavier Price that transferred that year from O'Fallon to Belleville West. That's where I made my mistake. Look JaleJarr, we both have personal connections to this topic that have told us different things and we both saw Tommie play in high school. We are not going to agree on this topic. Hit me up with a PM and I can tell you about the connections and guys from East St. Louis who I go to school with and tell me all the Liddell and Miles stories. I also remember one time I was walking from Northwoods Park with my brother and former Normandy player Antonio Hunter. It was summer 2003 I was arguing with my brother on how Ken Burke was overrated. My brother asked Antonio if Ken Burke was the best pg in the area that past season, and he said, no Tommie Liddell was. Antonio would know, he was on the bench when they played ESL in 2002 in the MLK Shootout. Tommie's whole appeal as a division 1 prospect was his pg ability before Hargrave was ever in the picture which is what I originally responded to. Someone said how playing pg at Hargrave really help Tommie learn the pg, or something like that. Tommie's game looks the same to me as it did in high school. I'd say he moves more fluidly now, but his jumper is less fluid.

[JaleJarr]

"I trust Mosby".

Or is it your too immature of a person to admit you are wrong. I don't know how old you are and if you are a juvenile I apologize in advance, but having the class to admit you are wrong is one of the things you will need to rely upon in not only your development as a person, but more importantly as a man. CHARACTER.

"Tommie growing didnt change his position".

I made no mention of his height, I simply provided you with hard evidence that refuted everything you stated as fact. Yet you trust Mosby is your response. Really sad young man.

[VTIME]

>"I trust Mosby".

>

>Or is it your too immature of a person to admit you are

>wrong. I don't know how old you are and if you are a

>juvenile I apologize in advance, but having the class to

>admit you are wrong is one the things you will need to rely

>upon in not only your development as a person, but more

>importantly as a man. CHARACTER.

>

>"Tommie growing didnt change his position".

>I made no mention of his height, I simply provided you with

>hard evidence that refuted everything you stated as fact.

>Yet you trust Mosby is your response. Really sad young man.

If Tommie played wing then Polk was a wing in HS too. Washington was the pg his last 2 years. Jimmy was the pg his sophomore year and Akins his freshman year. I know you'll say that Polk averaged more assists than Washington, but Tommie led the team assists at least one of those seasons. Just like when Tommie came to SLU and everyone thought he would be the wing, with Tommie, Lisch/Drejaj running the sg. I told you he was a pg, and that he would be best at that position. I understand roles, and what position guys play to be effective. You mentioned Tommie leading the team in reboundsing. What does that have to do with anything? Personally, I really dont see how Tommie is so much better than Cameron Murkey. If Tommie can play at SLU, I dont see why Murkey couldnt play at the very least a low-major. Dont get me wrong Tommie is good, but Murkey is a very good player in his own right. He doesnt jump like Tommie, but he shoots the ball so well. If I thought I was wrong I'd admit it, but I watched those games and he was walking the ball up the court running the offense. He was #25 with the braids. He was the one catching the tip dunk in the shootout vs Vashon where they finally beat them, something Darius Miles at his best had trouble doing. I remember Tommie having two dunks that game and like 30+ pts. I still cant figure out why Floyd was guarding him with Donny Jackson instead of Bobby Hill. I know Bobby was a freshman, but he didnt have any other perimeter guys that size. Donny was a great defender, but he's 5'10.

[JaleJarr]

"Look JaleJarr, we both have personal connections to this topic that have told us different things and we both saw Tommie play in high school".

Not necessarily true. I try not to pass off 2nd and 3rd hand info as fact. If you are going to continue to state things as vociferously as you have in the past, at least have 1st hand knowledge.

"We are not going to agree on this topic".

We don't have to agree, just acknowledge facts.

"Hit me up with a PM and I can tell you about the connections and guys from East St. Louis who I go to school with and tell me all the

Liddell and Miles stories".

Stories become legends and the truth is often sacrificed.

"I also remember one time I was walking from Northwoods Park with my brother and former Normandy player Antonio Hunter. It was summer 2003 I was arguing with my brother on how Ken Burke was overrated. My brother asked Antonio if Ken Burke was the best pg in the

area that past season, and he said, no Tommie Liddell was.

Antonio would know, he was on the bench when they played ESL

in 2002 in the MLK Shootout".

I'll do you one better, when J. McKinney was lording over the area prep scene as a senior. I told anyone who would listen that Tommie was the best b-ball prospect in the area.

"Tommie's whole appeal as a division 1 prospect was his pg ability before Hargrave was ever in the picture which is what I originally responded to. Someone said how playing pg at Hargrave really help Tommie learn the pg, or something like that. Tommie's game looks

the same to me as it did in high school. I'd say he moves

more fluidly now, but his jumper is less fluid".

I wouldn't say that Hargrave didn't improve his skills as he was able to concentrate on one position. He was also afforded the chance to practice with guys who either equaled or exceeded his talents.

He played for a demanding coach which somewhat prepared him for Soderberg. The dividends will show once the talent level at SLU rises. Kevin and Ian are known commodities, hopefully Obi and Horace are ready to compete.

[JaleJarr]

"I told you he was a pg, and that he would

be best at that position".

Uh thanks for the news flash. I also got the news about fire being hot.

"I understand roles, and what position guys play to be effective".

I advocated Tommie over Polk at the pg. Why go small when you don't have to, especially if the smaller players brings so little to the the table. By that I mean Polk is not a terror on defense, he doesn't shoot lights out, something some one his size needs to do to justify minutes.

" You mentioned Tommie leading the team in rebounding". "What does that have to do with the conversation".

It sort of lends credence to the point-forward argument.

If Tommie can play at SLU, I don't see why Murkey couldn't play at the very least a low major.

So now Tommie is too be blamed for Murkey's circumstance. Go ***** to a low major recruiter.

Dont get me wrong Tommie is good, but Murkey is a very good player in his own right.

A-10 Rookie of the Year, Near triple double, countless double-doubles on the season at the Division 1 level, but Murkey should have Tommie scholarship. Forgive the extrapolation.

I still cant figure out why Floyd was guarding him with

Donny Jackson instead of Bobby Hill. I know Bobby was a

freshman, but he didnt have any other perimeter guys that

size. Donny was a great defender, but he's 5'10.

I still can't figure out what this has to do with the conversation. You do that a lot. Some sort of Jedi mind trick I guess.

[Taj79]

Sorry, cheese ... but I wasn't making a sweeping generalization, I was talking about "some" public high schools. You are the one that jumped to the nth degree on this one.

By the way, how are your kids doing in high school? How about your wife who is a public school teacher? Frankly, I believe that I am well qualified and well associated with high school shenanigans as it goes and can make generalizations for that matter. Maybe you're there as well, I don't know. I didn't bore the board with the specific knowledge because translating it from Harford and Baltimore Counties and Baltimore City here in Maryland would have no bearing on the Swopshire case. Are you disputing my statement about it being a "freaking high school" and that Griffster's account that its a great high school means nothing in today's job place? I don't think so .....

Harford County has just instituted a policy that any student with a grade of "E" cannot play or participate in extra-curricular activities until that "E" is resolved. An "E" is one step above an "F" and one below a "D". In my entire educational career, high school through college through grad, I received one "D" my entire life. I blame that (maybe wrongfully) on "Senioritis" as SLU. But an "E" is a grade that I don't know about. Doesn't seem to be too difficult to NOT get though .... yet, here in Harford, which is comparable to St. Charles and St. Peter's over 34% of the kids in these high schools have "E"s. I find that amazing and appalling. My youngest called me the "grade Nazi" last year .... damn straight, my oldest needed a certain grade point to have here considerable college scholarship automatically renewed. That is important to me and her.

Now, when you come back with your PhD credentials and years of ongoing experience in some sort of public high school setting, then I will dutifully accept my place in the back seat of this discussions and drop it. My philosophy on education ... pubic or private ... is it is what you make of it. You meaning the kid and the parents. One cannot exisit in absentia without the other's involvement. Sending a kid off to hone his athletic expertise in hopes of hitting what again amounts to a lottery, is irresponsible as far as I'm concerned. Priorities are skewed and dramatically misplaced.

[3star_recruit]

"Sending a kid off to hone his athletic expertise in hopes of hitting what again amounts to a lottery, is irresponsible as far as I'm concerned. Priorities are skewed and dramatically misplaced."

Just curious -- do you feel the same way about parents that send their kids away to boarding schools that focus on performing arts?

[cheeseman]

Taj - go back and read your post, "... compared to some of the crap offered by today's public educational facilities..." You never said "some" public schools SO you did in fact make a sweeping generalization. My wife does not and has never taught high school in either a private or public setting. I do happen to have many years of successfull service in the public educational setting along with my doctorate and have several years of private consulting experience for both private and public schools. So, I have seen both and have worked with both. My point simply is that anytime someone makes a generalization about a group that casts all members of that group in an equally bad light then that person is simply either stupid or has some personal hidden agenda. I also believe that if you would check with SLU you would find that some of its top students have come from public schools. As far as my kids are concerned - both proudly attended public schools K-12. One writes for an international financial publication out of Chicago and the other has their doctorate - from SLU - in Molecular Microbiology and conducts research. How sorry I am that they had to be so mistreated to have attended a public school.

[billiken_roy]

i have to back cheeseman on this one. every school district is different. and each private school is different. we all know there are plenty of really good private schools in the st louis area, but there are plenty that are there for reasons other than education first and foremost as well. a number of schools seem to be there just for social regards of the family concerned.

as to the public schools, i know i have become a huge supporter of the belleville public schools and i make no secret of my belief that for an academically focused student, there are far more opportunitites to succeed at the belleville public schools than at most of the private schools. i am convinced there are only a very few schools i would consider better academically than what belleville west honors program is providing my daughter.

that all said, the disadvantages that the kids in cahokia and east st louis are facing are borderline criminal. all the money that is being poured into those schools and the results that come out is sad.

why the discrepancy? some can be blamed (or credited) on administrators and teachers, but mostly one has to believe it is the environment of the children. it of course starts with the students home life. is someone behind that student providing the necessary support to succeed? and secondly it goes to the atmosphere of the actual school concerned. which atmosphere will turn out the best students? if all the kids at that school are college prep focused and 100% tuned into learning or 50% of the students cant wait for their 16th birthday so they can drop out and begin selling drugs? of course those examples are extreme, but you get the point.

this second part is what most of the private schools do provide. simply because the kids that are attending most private schools are from better financially supported families with goals and visions that will make the school environment one where peer pressure alone will make the kids open the books.