slufanskip Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Certainly it means something it is a way to judge how good you are as compared to the rest of the Div 1 teams. It may not be exact science but as a whole I think it puts you in the right area. Looking at records only completely dismisses strength of schedule. As someone else mentioned their 2001 RPI was 74 and last year I believe it was mid 60's that would put them at about the 75% area. So are you saying that being in the top 30% of all Div 1 basketball teams is mediocre. I'm not saying it is great ... but certainly not mediocre. I would like to see us consistently in the top 10% which would be a consistent RPI of 30 or higher. There is also no question that your Blujays would have finished with a lesser record had they played in CUSA instead of the MVC. What about had they been in the Big 12. Then would you think that RPI was more important than record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cujaysfan Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 at that point it wouldn't be as big of an issue as the teams cu would be playing have strong rpis... this is a very big sore spot - no one will play teams like creighton. this hurts the jays rpi - i think the ncaa needs to do something about it - whether it is to slightly weight a road win - or legislate some sort of scheduling equity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 or maybe as slu is attempting to do, creighton needs to work a little harder at getting into a better conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Some fans are thinking with their hearts instead of with their brains. MVC schools pay their coaches an average base salary in the 120K-150K range, with Creighton being the exception The A-10 routinely pays coaches a base salary of $300-400K. The A-10 brings in $7-8 Million a year. The Valley isn't even close. You need money to maintain a strong athletic program and to keep a quality coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 does anyone know or have a link that explains how the tourney income pie is divided? i bring this up because i am guessing the difference between the two conferences is astronomical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I think different conferences determine differently how to divvy out their shares of NCAA Tournament earnings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 oh i agree with that, but is there a way the ncaa makes the initial payout? i.e. there are 126 parts and every game you play equals one part of the pie? now after that i agree each conference is different. but up to that part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Agreed Roy ... you can't make teams play you. I'm pretty sure the value of a road win against the same team is more than a home win in the RPI. If not I certainly agree that it should be. But that wasn't the issue ... which was your statement that SLU has been mediocre over the last 5 years, and the way to determine that is soley based upon won - lost records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cujaysfan Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 i know that it is something that is routinely discussed by CU fans. i also know that it is on the mind off CU prez fr. schlagel... however - jumping just for jumpings sake and not waiting for the right situation is not the right thing to do. while comfortable in the MVC - all of us Jays fans are looking for the proverbial greener pasture. but i hope that we are waiting for the right situation - neither of which conf usa or the a-10 is right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUNATE Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Let it be said... I am not a Tiger Fan...I've never once ate a baby in my life. I'm not a SLU hater...I'm a proud alumni. I'm probably guilty of thinking with my heart a little more than my head...I enjoy Creighton, SMS and SIUC and would love to see the Bills play those teams more often. I'd also like to be able to roadtrip to see the Billikens on away games. I think the Valley is a conference that is getting better, and I think SLU could add to that. I'm not an ######, nor an idiot. I just have a different opinion, one that favors the Valley for a lot of reasons. I'll support the Billikens where they play, be it on either coast or in the middle. I'd just like to see them continue to excel in both soccer and basketball, and I think the MVC provides that opportunity. That said, I completely understand and respect a lot of the points of view expressed by A-10 fans. Xavier and Dayton are fine selling points. By thought on the Big East was that it is a poor fit for SLU (and a longshot, I don't know why Cusamano thought that was a viable option) because I think we'd get our asses handed to us for a few years, then get ditched for a football school. You guys have a great night! NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 >>(M)y thought on the Big East was that it is a poor fit for SLU... because I think we'd get our (rear ends) handed to us for a few years, then get ditched for a football school. You claim to be such a fan of SLU, but the above statement, saying that SLU couldn't be remotely competitive in the Big East, indicates to me that you haven't watched a SLU game in a long time. Not only do few teams blow SLU out, because of the Billikens' typical tough defense, but the Bills also smacked Big East school West Virginia pretty hard last season. If you were so much of a fan, you would have realized that. SLU can compete with just about any team in the country. The only teams who can routinely blow the Bills out are teams who blow everyone out. Ask Kansas (1998-99), Illinois (1997-98), Missouri (1999-2001), UCLA, and others how tough it is to play the Bills. SLU is not going to be a patsy in any conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 actually the valley is getting worse. they have dropped rpi wise from the 7th ranked conference 5 years ago to this past year 14th. and this is not a one year regression. it has been a steady downhill slide. really it has been a 2 team conference as of late with creighton and siu. of course siu just lost their best coach ever and creighton just lost their best player ever. the rest of the league is pitiful. thus the billikens rpi would drop just because of who they play. if you think that is good as it puts the billikens in position to challenge for the title year in and year out, you are wrong. year in and year out they are arguing their league champion deserves a bid in the ncaa even though maybe they didnt win their tourney. bubble teams. usually they are lucky to get 2 teams in the tourney. the a-10 usually gets 4. as to attendance, if the valley is such a great draw, then why are the annual games with siu and sms not the highest attended games each year? the big draw each year has been the cincy, louisville, memphis, or other big name school that comes to town. proving that when it comes down to it, the public will respond to the better teams. btw, besides conference usa schools and missouri, i believe the highest slu game attendance game is still a-10 member, u mass. last i continue to hear about not having chemistry or anything in common. actually from a like philosophy and academic approach, the a-10 might be the best fit of any conference. my question is other than geography, just what does the mvc schools have in common with slu? creighton is the only school that we match up with. in fact i would love for creighton to tag along with the billikens in this endeavor. now if you want to talk about better matchups philosophically, geographically, and academically, missouri matches up real well with the mvc. and they too could dominate the conference and get to go to the tourney each year. i say let missouri go to the mvc. it makes more sense than slu. thank god father biondi and doug woolard are calling the shots on the conference thing and not you and the other uninformed "fans". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 we already play SMS and SIUC once a year (this is an off year for SIUC bu still) so why would we join a conference to play those teams one more time and Creighton twice when you could join the A-10 and play Xavier, Dayton, and Charlotte twice and St. Joe, Temple, UMass once? the simple numbers don't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUNATE Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 On the Big East.... My point was that they are interested in football schools long term. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. As far as basketball competition, I wouldn't hold West Virginia up as the standard we'd face in the Big East. Syracuse, ND, Pitt, BC? Anyone think we'd just take them? On the A-10.... I'll admit, I like some of the points you are making, but I still don't think that we are going to go to the tourney every year because we're in the same conference as Dayton and Xavier. On the MVC.... If we are really looking at any one conference we join as a holdover until the formation of a catholic league made up of non football Big East schools and A-10 schools, why not join a conference that we could dominate, would provide a decent conference schedule for soccer and would be easier on our non revenue sports? On this conversation in general.... Relax, and don't be so arrogant as to assume you know everything there is to know about college basketball. People are allowed to engage in a discussion even if they don't toe the A-10 party line. I'll admit I have lots of reasons for liking the Valley, I'll admit it isn't the perfect fit. Neither is the A-10. If it's all about the money, just say so. Have a great day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Perhaps the St. Louis public schools are good enough for your kids. Perhaps gov't cheese thrice a day is enough to feed them. Perhaps Jeff Dahmer is good enough to babysit for you. No one without a kid on the team will give a rats hinder about taking off work early to get to that big Slu/Drake matchup. I wouldn't pay to park for that! We all hope for the best for our children! Slu is my baby! THE MVC IS A CRACK HOUSE! With all due respect to you and the standards of this board and only because you broke the seal in an earlier post: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Ok ... lets not get carried away ... Yes money is probably an issue ... but the real reason to go to the A-10 over the MVC is simple. It is a better basketball conference and basketball drives SLU's ship. Look at the RPI's and the number of teams in the tourney every year. Being in the top 3 or 4 in the A-10 gets you to the tourney. Being #2 in the valley might get you to th tourney. We will also get some exposure in the east ... which I'm sure will mean more TV time. Kid's want to be seen. There really is no argument that makes sense ... besides it will be easier for me to drive to see the games. The reason we should go to the A-10 are the same reasons Marquette and Depaul should go to the Big East. And what is so wrong with for money. Schools need money to operate there Athletic departments and give scholerships to kids ...plus much, much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 first off, the a-10 sends more than 2 teams to the tourney on a regular basis so there is less urgency to win the tourney to make the ncaa tourney. the same cant be said for the mvc. in all likelihood, with carbondale losing their best coach in history and creighton losing their best player in history, the mvc could easily be regressing back to a one seed league that would require the billikens to win the tourney every year. not an easy task in any league. the mvc has steadily regressed in overall power for 5 straight seasons. they are now a 14th ranked conference. in truth, the horizon would be a better choice than the missouri valley. and we havent even thrown in the fact of the different philosophies and ethics of slu versus the public schools of the mvc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 nate, apparently you drive to billiken games all the time? please tell me what you look like as i thought i knew most of the billiken fans at most of the close road games in years past and i dont remember a nate being there with the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cujaysfan Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 now roy - that is just stupid - ethics of the mvc public schools? much like the ethics of say memphis or cincinatti??? can't remember last time MVC sent only 1 team to the NCAAs - it has probably been 6,7,8 years ago. MVC has been sending 2 regularly and sometimes 3 teams to the tourney. seeding however is another issue. MVC should be a top 10 conference again this year - top to bottom the league should be very tough. last year the bottom was quite bad and that is what dragged down the overall ranking... as for siu and cu regressing...siu still seems to be doing well recruiting (see matt shaw who is likely to choose southern over slu) and dawg fans are very high on painter. CU will be very good again - dare i say - if CU played bills on neutral floor - i think CU would win (but isn't that what i am supposed to think). Jays fans aren't worried about the loss of korver as much as the other two seniors and the athleticism and defense they brought to the jays squad. scoring (ie korv) is usually a lot easier to replace. wichita state could be very very good this year. SLU's record against the MVC schools the last five years isn't the greatest - while i get why you folks want to join the A10 - some of the valley bashing is out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 please tell us what is going to drive the mvc to the higher conf ranking? as i said, i will be surprised if they hold their place let alone rise up. her is the order of conference rankings per the rpi last year: 1. big 12 2. sec 3. acc 4. big east 5. big 10 6. mountain west 7. pac 10 8. conference usa 9. a-10 10. west coast conference 11. mid america conference 12. wac 13. horizon 14. mvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cujaysfan Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 simple....the bad teams won't be as terrible. i really think that only indiana state is going to struggle. illinois state who was awful last year could be solid with a couple of transfers from mizzou and wisconsin - plus new coach. UNI will have much improved depth - that was really their big problem last year as they ran out of gas. Drake - with dr tom at the helm can't help but be better - kurt kanaskie was won of the worst coaches around - and it seemed like the kids quit on him - won't happen with davis. bradley will be very good. sommerville alone will make sure of that -but phil gilbert is an outstanding player. they will be right there with wichita and CU contending for title. as i said - wichita state has top 25 potential - they are very athletic and turgeon is an outstanding young coach. CU/SIU see above. SMS - while i dont think much of hinson's coaching ability - he has stockpiled a bunch of talent - and if i am not mistaken they beat the bills last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p diddy Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 sms beat the bills, but you forgot to mention that slu blew carbondale off the floor last year. that was the mvc regular season champion if i am not mistaken. it was a great win for sms last year over slu. it was like their ncaa title because they didn't beat anyone else that was any good. when slu whipped the salukis, it was a great win, but to many fans, nobody really noticed since they also defeated louisville, cincinnati (on the road), memphis, dayton. that's five ncaa teams. they also beat depaul twice (nit team). what that says is the games with siu, sms or bradley or other mvc teams are usually dogfights because they are quality teams. and i like to play them. but on the list of priority on the schedule, they rank pretty low on the totem pole when you have to gear up for the iikes of cincinnati, louisville, marquette, charlotte and depaul twice, not to mention memphis. and then nonconference games against someone like arizona, mizzou, another great mid major like butler, kansas and illinois in other years. i know cu had a great team last year and have enjoyed a great run under dana. i don't know their schedule, but could you tell us what their top nonconference wins were outside of notre dame. bad boyz for life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cujaysfan Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 byu was good win tenn tech was decent team - jays won by about 40 absolutely drilled IUPUI by 40 or so - IUPUI was a tourney team beat Nebraska for 5th year i a row fresno state in bracket buster also beat TCU thats off top of my head...there may be others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 iupui was a tourney team sure. do you think they would have been a tourney team in cusa or the a-10? my gosh, think about what you are writing. you are using that as an example of the "quality" wins? you are basically selling our argument for us. if that is the list of non-conference games we are going to have in the future, the question is why in heaven's name would we want to be in the mvc? why in heavens name does creighton want to be in the mvc? the blue jays deserve better. go play in unlv's conference or something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I would also not put the Cornhuskers of last year in a quality win status...hells bells...I even saw USF handle the Huskers last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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