Offer Even Without Interest (Cont'd Long Thread)

[Billinikens]

Since the Chicago PF thread (that degenerated into a Brandenbur offer or not thread) got long and confusing I started a new one.

3 star and skip suggest you don't offer Brandenburg because you want to convince the guy that is interested he is your first option. I just don't see the merit of this argument. I understand what you're saying, I just don't believe that a guy like Thompson doesn't realize that Brandenburg is the biggest recruit in the 2008 class (for big men). If he mentions during his recruitment that you really want Brandenburg, tell him you want both. If it comes down to one or the other, you want the first one to take the open scholarship. I don't see the problem with that. You can't afford to withhold offers from the best players IN YOUR OWN CITY because you're afraid of offending other players. That type of settling gets you 3 NCAA appearances in the last twenty years, I'm not willing to settle for that.

I'll admit that I haven't followed the recruiting scene nearly as long as many of you so I'd love to hear what is wrong with my above reasoning.

[cheeseman]

Nothing

[SLUDrew]

Your reasoning is very sound. There are those who follow this program that cannot see SLU ever becoming a more prominent program than it is. They think we should realize that we are a mid-major, give the big boys fits but never really get there, 17-13 type program. The Billikens have always been this way and that how they will always be to these people. They think we should give up on guys who have Duke, UNC, and Kentucky on their list. We will NEVER get them anyway. We should only be recruiting against SEMO, Illinois St and Miami if OH. We have a chance against those guys.

Like you, and many others on this board, I expect more from this program, and think it can become a big player in the college baseketball scene. Of course that all starts with recruiting, and in our sitaution, recruiting starts with convincing the best players in St. Louis to stay here.

As far as Brandenburg goes, you have to go after him hard EVEN THOUGH he has stated he would like to wind up in the ACC. We may not land him, but what kind of message does it send if we are afraid to go after the best players in our own city, because we think we can't compete in a recruiting battle?

[3star_recruit]

Two issues here.

1. I don't think Brandenburg is the caliber of player a lot of the posters who are reading Scout articles believe him to be and I think his actual production on the court on the next two seasons will bear that out.

2. I don't see the point of engaging in recruiting battles against top 25 programs just for the sake of doing so. Romar, a more highly regarded recruiter than our present coach, tried and it blew up in his face. You can't win the Olympics without performing well in preliminary meets. Once we start winning recruiting battles against Iowa State and Notre Dame, then we can seriously discuss recruiting against Kentucky.

[slu72]

If Brandenburg has stated: I'm going ACC, Big East, etc...got no interest in SLU, you can still offer, but don't waste your time pursuing. I think Zo offered Lee, but knew he wouldn't get him. At least we will get listed with the big boys.....Hell do the same with Tyus. Of course, UB's thinking maybe we'll look like idiots if we keep getting rejected. This offer w/o interest is kind of ridiculous ...why not make an offer to every player in the top 100? What's it cost...the price of a stamp or a fax?

[SLUDrew]

3 star, we are not talking about recruiting against the ACC big boys for a player from North Carolina. We are talking about a kid in our own backyard. Do you really not see a problem with staying away from the best players in your own town because you think you might not get them? Of course these kids grow up dreaming of playing for Duke, UNC, or Kentucky. We all did. Yes, the odds of Brad getting kids set on playing with the big boys is small, but we will never rise above mediocrity if we accept that we cannot recruit against them for kids in our own city!!!!

Unfortunately, I think 3star's mindset is rampant not only on this board, but down at SLU as well.

[3star_recruit]

"Yes, the odds of Brad getting kids set on playing with the big boys is small, but we will never rise above mediocrity if we accept that we cannot recruit against them for kids in our own city!!!!"

Wow, so you consider Xavier and UAB to be mediocre simply because they are selective about who they recruit in their own city? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Hardball]

Romar got in trouble by trying to recruit against the big boys for recruits on the west coast. Not for recruiting big time talent locally. He was just biding his time and keeping his foot in the door on all his west coast contacts in the event he got a west coast job again. This situation is totally different because Brandeberg is local. Did Romar recruit David Lee? Yes, did he have a chance probably not but HE DID OFFER and recruit him. I am not saying Brandenberg is Lee but you have to offer to stay in the game.

This philosophy is ridiculous to not recruit BrandenBerg. Who wants a coach that doesn't think he can get a big time local recruit? Thank God Spoon didn't feel this way regarding Larry. Does anyone think if Pearl,Crean,Altman,Weber,Lowery..(I could go on) had an opportunity to recruit a local player that their philosopy would be "I am not going to recruit them because we probably won't get them" Not one of them would take the safe road. Why would any of the SLU faithful want a coach that adheres to this philospy?

As a matter of fact all these coaches have gone into hostile territory and gotten players. When was the last time Brad when into a hostile territory and got a good player? I can't think of one in four years. Is this the SLU savior everyone wants? Good coaches do go into hostile territory and get players BS never does.

If your savior can't recruit in other cites and is going to rely on only local talent to get the job done then he has no choice but to offer Bradenberg.

[Orange Julius]

You guys are all driving me crazy. Brandenburg said he wants to play for an ACC school. What kid does not want to play for UNC or Duke? He does not have any ACC offers and actually two of the three offers he has on the table are from schools that are better than SLU, Southern Illinois and MO State. Since those two schools are better should we not go after any other kid that may have high major dreams but mid major offers? The point is there are a few kids in St. Louis you have to offer and Brandenburg is one of them. Furthermore if you hope to get Griffey you are going to need to get someone ahead of him for him to play with. Griffey has it easy, all he has to do is sitback and figure out where everybody in '08 goes and then make his decision.

[Quality Is Job 1]

>If your savior can't recruit in other cites and is going to

>rely on only local talent to get the job done then he has no

>choice but to offer Bradenberg.

Are we sure that Brandenberg is the caliber of player that he's going to be a high-major target -- a "big-time" recruit? Has he produced to that degree? Has he displayed a lot of upside? Larry Hughes's potential was evident from early on, both by evaluation and statistics. Is it the same for Brandenberg?

[SLUDrew]

I said the same thing; among those of us who grew up playing basektball, who didn't dream of playing for Duke and UNC? That's a lot different from actually doing it.

I know I sound like a broken record on this, but how can you possibly justify not pursuing the top talent in your city REGARDLESS of where they have said they would like to play. We are not asking Brad to get on a jet and fly to San Diego every couple of weeks. We are asking that he goes out to Ballas Rd for Christ sake. If we are so worried about what we may lose by pursuing Brandenburg, I will go down to SLU, pick-up Coach, and take him out to practice. That way the University won't even lose gas money. Who knows, while we are out there we may get in on the third best player on DeSmet's team to satisfy those of you who think those are the kids we should be going after.

[bauman]

Some of the "must offer Brandenburg group" are missing one of the key points being made by 3-star and Thicks-just maybe Brandenburg isn't as good as most of you are assuming him to be. How many of you have seen him play? His stats certainly are not great for someone many are "sure" is an ACC-quality recruit. Just being 6' 10" doesn't make you a Duke recruit. His teammate last year at DeSmet is 6' 11"-7' 0" Kowal) and started for DeSmet yet no one on this Board said we had to offer.

I have watched Brandenburg play 3 times and, at this point, I don't see him as ACC quality. Maybe Brad wants to see if he develops beyond where he is currently. If he was as good as some of you believe, he would have some top-level school offers by now.

We do seem to have a number of offers out for "future" type players i.e. Thompson, Suggs, McCombs and Griffey, so it's not like we haven't offered some outstanding young players. In addition, I think it's fair to assume that Brad has other offers out there that none of us are aware of. I don't believe his recent track record would suggest that he is NOT going to offer the top area players, e. g. TL & KL.

[NashvilleBilliken]

C'mon, Bauman. Since when do you actually need to see a guy play to to be a recruiting expert? All it takes to be a D-1 recruiter is a roster, a subscription to Scout, or an internet connection. Get with the program.

[bauman]

I appreciate your sarcasm. By the way, my point was not to knock JB, who may turn out to be an excellent player, but rather to point out that the basic premise of the "must offer" group MAY be in error. I believe Brad is taking a reasonable approach in watching JB's development b/4 making an offer-an approach also being taken by all of the "big-boy schools", none of whom have made an offer.

If JB continues to improve beyond his very average Sophomore year, then we, of course, need to offer. In the meantime, we should continue to display real interest, (send letters, make phone calls, watch games and practices), but not offer until we are SURE that he is going to be an A-10 plus, quality player. We don't need another very tall, semi-project. If JB doesn't develop and we would have offered a scholarship (which he accepted) we would be hearing about the wasted scholie in a few years.

Folks, it's Brad livlihood. Let's give him some credit for knowing more about who and when to offer scholarships to than most of us. That doesn't mean he will not make some mistakes, but let's judge him by those hits and misses AFTER the fact-not before.

[Billinikens]

>I appreciate your sarcasm.

I don't appreciate the sarcasm. I am not a recruiting expert, nor have I claimed to be. I get much of my info from this website so what does that tell you about the quality of my information? The basic premise of the argument is NOT if Brandenburg is good enough, he is simply an example player. Let's say it is actually Larry Hughes, but he says no way to UB on coming to SLU. Do you not offer him b/c his initial response to you was a no? Do you give up on recruiting him? Given the small amount of effort it takes to get in contact with and watch that player, I just don't see the merit of giving way.

[Orange Julius]

>Some of the "must offer Brandenburg group" are missing one

>of the key points being made by 3-star and Thicks-just maybe

>Brandenburg isn't as good as most of you are assuming him to

>be. How many of you have seen him play? His stats

>certainly are not great for someone many are "sure" is an

>ACC-quality recruit. Just being 6' 10" doesn't make you a

>Duke recruit. His teammate last year at DeSmet is 6' 11"-7'

>0" Kowal) and started for DeSmet yet no one on this Board

>said we had to offer.

>

>I have watched Brandenburg play 3 times and, at this point,

>I don't see him as ACC quality. Maybe Brad wants to see if

>he develops beyond where he is currently. If he was as good

>as some of you believe, he would have some top-level school

>offers by now.

I have watched Brandenburg play over 20 times and I have watched him practice over the last few years as well. I have watched Brett Thompson play over ten times and I have watched him practice as well. John is the better player. The other point is no one has said he is an ACC quality recruit, even though I am sure he is on his way to receiving an offer from an ACC school.

But this is just getting goofy, so here is the deal. I know the real reason SLU hasn't offered John and it all centers around lack of opportunity. They have not been able to get in touch with him through the same channels they are using to get in touch with other players and that is the bottom line.

[Billiken Rich]

What are you saying? We need to hire a process server to get him an offer?

[Hardball]

I can think of many times BS either didn't offer or offered too late in Ahearn,Shaw,Stemler,Knollmeyer(first time around),Hill

BS makes a major recruiting mistake every year so why don't we just chalk Brandeberg up as the the mistake for his year.

As for him being good enough, if Missouri State and Southern Illinois have already offered he is good enough to play for SLU.

[cheeseman]

Hardball - Romar lost out on big talent locally also - Mckinney and Baker to name 2. Romar just lost out on just about everybody - nationally and locally.

[moytoy12]

This is where UB's (in)ability to evaluate talent comes into play. Assuming Brandenburg is at least a serviceable D-1 player (i know nothing about him), this would seem to be the time to offer (i.e. before the bigs come in).

[VTIME]

>>If your savior can't recruit in other cites and is going to

>>rely on only local talent to get the job done then he has no

>>choice but to offer Bradenberg.

>

>Are we sure that Brandenberg is the caliber of player that

>he's going to be a high-major target -- a "big-time"

>recruit? Has he produced to that degree? Has he displayed

>a lot of upside? Larry Hughes's potential was evident from

>early on, both by evaluation and statistics. Is it the same

>for Brandenberg?

Brandenburg is rated as the no. 6 center in the nation by scout.com

[VTIME]

>Some of the "must offer Brandenburg group" are missing one

>of the key points being made by 3-star and Thicks-just maybe

>Brandenburg isn't as good as most of you are assuming him to

>be. How many of you have seen him play? His stats

>certainly are not great for someone many are "sure" is an

>ACC-quality recruit. Just being 6' 10" doesn't make you a

>Duke recruit. His teammate last year at DeSmet is 6' 11"-7'

>0" Kowal) and started for DeSmet yet no one on this Board

>said we had to offer.

>

>I have watched Brandenburg play 3 times and, at this point,

>I don't see him as ACC quality. Maybe Brad wants to see if

>he develops beyond where he is currently. If he was as good

>as some of you believe, he would have some top-level school

>offers by now.

>

>We do seem to have a number of offers out for "future" type

>players i.e. Thompson, Suggs, McCombs and Griffey, so it's

>not like we haven't offered some outstanding young players.

>In addition, I think it's fair to assume that Brad has other

>offers out there that none of us are aware of. I don't

>believe his recent track record would suggest that he is NOT

>going to offer the top area players, e. g. TL & KL.

For future reference, AAU production is much, much more important than what you do during the high school regular season. High school season production is more important as far getting you on an AAU team.

[VTIME]

>I can think of many times BS either didn't offer or offered

>too late in Ahearn,Shaw,Stemler,Knollmeyer(first time

>around),Hill

>

>BS makes a major recruiting mistake every year so why don't

>we just chalk Brandeberg up as the the mistake for his year.

>

>As for him being good enough, if Missouri State and Southern

>Illinois have already offered he is good enough to play for

>SLU.

It makes sense

[Major Majerus]

I know post office addresses and telephone numbers are closely guarded secrets, but surely this kid has an email address that can be discovered. I didn't think DeSmet's whereabouts was a secret, though. }>

[Quality Is Job 1]

I like Dwayne Polk and Justin Johnson, but weren't they also rated pretty highly as underclassmen? Aren't those recruiting service ratings based on more speculation, guesswork, and innuendo than on bona fide evaulation? Brandenberg's Scout ranking might be based on the very talk that's running rampant around here. But then, as he plays against warm bodies in meaningful competition who doesn't tremble at his height, he'll come up very ordinary. I hope that isn't the case, for his own sake, wherever he chooses to attend college, but one must take it into consideration. Justin Johnson was very highly regarded, but he has only one year left to show that he wasn't a bust. Dwayne's injury set him back, but he seems to be affected by the same thing that has plagued every Vashon alumnus with the exception of Anthony Bonner. I hope Polk lives up to the hype he got before his injury, but the fact of the matter is that Vashon's system produces championships without developing skilled basketball players (Floyd Irons must be doing it with smoke and mirrors, and if you throw five Vashon jerseys out on the floor, most opponents, especially in Missouri, have already been intimidated into losing).

The bottom line is that Scout.com doesn't mean much. If Brandenberg really is the sixth-best center in the country in his class then don't you think Kentucky, Arizona, UCLA, and the ACC would have offered him? They may be looking at him, just like they looked at Xavier Price and Alex Tyus and Alex Barnett, and that's the reason the recruiting reactionaries are listing him so high, but if his game doesn't live up to the hype, the offers won't come and the ranking will drop, just like JJ's and Polk's.