davidnark Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I made it to the Shootout for the EStl game and the first half of the Peoria game. It was my first time watching Liddell and Grimes in person. EStl won the game by a point, and both players were fantastic. Tommie's outside shot wasn't falling, but he still led all scorers. Those folks who describe him as silky smooth are dead on; he just glides across the court. I was most impressed with his ballhanding and passing. He was the source of several oohs and aahs. Coach Soderberg and his son sat a few rows in front of me, and coach's son was rolling in his chair after a few of Tommie's passes. Tommie can best be described as a poor man's Shaun Livingston (see below). Grimes was equally impressive. He is one wide and strong man. He is built like Shaq minus a few inches. He had several thunderous dunks and was a beast on the boards, but his teammates didn't feed him the ball near enough. He is going to have a great college career (whereever that may be). I watched the first half of the Peoria game. This kid Livingston is flat out amazing. He handles the ball like a yo-yo, he is fast, he can jump out of the gym, and, most importantly, I swear he has eyes behind his head. When he had the ball in his hands everyone just waited for the highlight to happen. He would fly down the court, juke defenders, and leave his feet prior to making a great pass or shot all the while having complete control of his body. He also had several showtime dunks. Duke is lucky if they get one year out of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 The problem with Grimes is he asserts himself about once every three games. If this pattern continues, as it has for the last 3 1/2 years, it will drive his college coach crazy. Before this game the 6'8 260 lb Grimes was only averaging 7.5 rebounds per outing. That's unacceptable. Matt Akins, a 6'8 205 lb stringbean who plays for Jennings, is averaging about 10 boards a game. Give me the kid who brings it every game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 12, 2003 Author Share Posted December 12, 2003 I am obviously judging Grimes from less than 30 minutes, but if I were his college coach I would be estatic about his size, strength, and athleticism. I bet the so-called experts were ready to rank him a top 75 player without even seeing him touch a basketball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan Alum Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Nark, I agree with you wholehearedly about your view of Tommie vs. Kalen. Tommie could have had at least seven more assists if his teammates could have finished those layups. He plays so calmly and never in a hurry, he is fun to watch. He definitely makes those around him better because he makes so many good decisions on the court. Can't wait for next year. I have seen Kalen play a couple times a year since he was a freshman, and this was the best I've ever seen him play, both offensively and defensively. I really liked Alex Tyus, too. I saw Livingston play last year in the shootout also and he is worth the price of admission all by himself. His alley oop, one-handed dunk at the start of the game was breath taking. The sloppiest game of the day was the Webster-Portland (Tenn.) game. That Corey Brewer kid is just the latest in Billy Donovan's out-of-control players he recruits for Florida. I feel bad for David Lee because he is the one kid down there that will work within the confines of a real offense. Landon Shipley had 28 for Lafayette in the opening game. He should make some small college coach happy. Beal had 26 for Vianney, but Paradoski was ineffective. Anyway, fun day at Savvis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I agree with everything said about Tommie ... I am very glad he is going to be a Bill. Kalen looked much better than last year ... he would be starting for us right now. Livingston ... the opponent was so used to him making no look passes ... a couple of times he looked directly at the teammate he was passing to so long the other team committed the other way expecting the no look ... then he passed right where he was looking creating an open layup for his team. This kid is awesome. Brandon Rush ... WOW..WOW..WOW can this guy get up with incredible body control. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 imo here were the 5 best players there today. livingston is one of the best i have ever seen at the shootout. his floor vision and confidence is outstanding. magic like. better than hardaway was when he was here years ago. second best player was the wright kid that is going to depaul. i give the aldridge kid third place. probably never see a minute of college being he is almost 7 feet and very athletic. reminded me of chris bosh. 4th best is the brewer kid that will be going to florida. might have looked selfish or out of control, but what was he gonna do with the poor poor supporting staff he had. 5th best brandon rush. a lot probably want to rank him higher as he was quite the highlight film. however, it is all about brandon. and with the supporting cast around him, that doesnt have to be. as to tommie, played very good. probably the calm amongst the storm in a wild team. dont be fooled by this score, neither team played slow. they just didnt make shots. as was mentioned above, a few missed layups, some fouls on shots, and some balls that would have been caught, liddell could easily have had 12 assists imo. he didnt shoot real well, but he has that nose for getting open and making stuff happen. his steal with less than 10 seconds left was huge. i too saw brad beaming a number of times. best i ever saw grimes play. he was moving for the ball and he went after rebounds like i have never seen him. still, all things considered, considering his size advantage, he should have done more. the danridge kid for mt zion was a surprise. i was suspecting more of a straight shooter. oh he could shoot, but he also was very strong, handled pretty good, and had a couple of dunks. missouri is getting quite a player with him. the whole mt zion team was amazing. i would guess they would finish in the top 5 of conference usa. their 6th man is going to alabama. the starting 5 only rush hasnt committed to a major school yet. the team they played had a 7'3" center that was better than our centers now coming off the bench. as i stated above, the dorrell wright kid is fantastic. angres thorpe was there the entire day. brad only showed for tommie's game and half of the livingston show. belleville west beat a very good lanier team from mississippi. the lanier team had a top 10 junior (very similar player to rush, maybe more of a shooter and not quite as much of a dunker) monta ellis and a 6'9" kid that is heading to misssippi state, last name rhodes i think. he reminded me of chris wilcox. west played a very nice game to beat them by a few. chaminade played against aurora west and gave them a very good game. i was very impressed with vaughn west. shame he isnt a few inches taller. the pruitt kid from aurora that is heading to illinois was ok, but wanted to go left all the time and to be honest, doesnt appear to be over his leg injury i guess from last year. still he fouled out west and 3 other bigs for chaminade had 4 fouls each. so overall he did his job. justin cersoli was not as spectacular as last year. but he was solid. he handles the ball well. he is headed to seton hall if i remembered correctly. the opening game of vianny and lafeyette was a nice game. lafeyette had a nice guard that is a junior, langdon shipley i think was his name. shot very well and did ok with the ball. he outplayed paradowski imo. paradowski missed a lot of shots. however that said, his shot looked ok and he could get it when he wanted. he handles the ball well, but he is very small. i am guessing phil hunt is bigger. semo is a good choice. which reminds me of monroe douglas. sorry. he isnt going to play d-1 imo. doesnt shoot well, and he turned it over quite a bit. all in all, another fabulous shoot out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeSmetBilliken Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 This was my first Shootout and I really enjoyed it. Let me just say that Roy hit everything pretty much on the nose, so there is no need to repeat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 You know I left the South Kent-Mt. Zion game at halftime, but what I saw in the first half left me unimpressed with Jermaine Middleton. He's 7-3, but that's about it. He doesn't run well, he's not very mobile or quick, he's not strong, he can't hold position, he can't shoot, he can't catch the ball, and he didn't block shots. Did he look that much better in the second half? Then again, maybe I'm being to hard on him, because the talent he was playing against was well beyond high-school talent. Still, as a fifth-year player, he should have been better than that. I don't think he's any better than Ian Vouyoukas or Bryce Husak, and Tom Frericks would chew him up and spit him out (despite being seven or so inches shorter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 i wasnt impressed with middleton one bit. so my comments were as much as swipe at what i consider our own disappointing inside game. you are probably correct that frericks could best him assuming tom wasnt fouled out after 5 minutes. let's leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 12, 2003 Author Share Posted December 12, 2003 Roy, I don't understand why you repeatedly rip Ian and Husak when none of us have seen them play a single minute. How can you claim that some high school kid is better than a pair of SLU centers you have never seen play? I understand your frustration with Frerick's foul issues and Varner's limited ability, but it isn't fair or logical to criticize Ian or Husak. SLU hasn't exactly been a mecca for all-american centers, so I wouldn't be surprised of Ian and/or Husak end up being as good or better than any center we have had in a long, long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 i hope you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 That's just Roy's way. If a player has "upside" but hasn't really proved anything yet, he doesn't count on that player to produce. I think it's a self-defense mechanism so he isn't disappointed. If Middleton was our center and Husak was the kid coming off of Zion's bench, I bet Middleton would be in Roy's doghouse. If I'm way off here, Roy, please feel free to interject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 "He is going to have a great college career (whereever that may be)." ...You mean, Mizzou? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 12, 2003 Author Share Posted December 12, 2003 I have no idea what to expect from Ian, although I am positive. In the several practices I have watched Bryce has shown real nice coordination and a good work ethic. Plus, his is very, very, very tall. I bet Bryce will be able to count on one big hand the number of guys he plays against during his college career who are taller than him. I have high expecations for Bryce in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 12, 2003 Author Share Posted December 12, 2003 Only if he wants to play for Brian Grawer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 sources say (if Kleitzman can use that term to prove anything he says so can i) He's not planning on going anywhere. He'll be at Mizzou next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 let's just say that we have been burned by "projects" enough that i am not betting the farm on them anymore. good observation 3 star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I was sitting with the relatives of an asst coach at Hazelwood Central and because they learned that I am on a school board they wanted to know the rule about Kalen's ability to transfer if MU went on probation and I informed them of the new rule that was established in the Baylor situation. They seemed relieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 12, 2003 Author Share Posted December 12, 2003 Have we ever had a "project" that was 7'2" and over 250 lbs.? I don't consider Ian a project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 While most SLU fans have not seen Ian and Bryce play or practice, imo one needs to be careful in their early evaluations of these young players. Ian is both big and strong for an 18 year old. He has good hands, a soft touch and is both a capable mid-range shooter and a capable, willing passer. However, Ian has just started to learn the American college game, where nearly all post players are extremely physical, and where a thunderous dunk is common and preferable to a finessed or casual finger-roll of the ball over the rim. Bryce is also learning to play against strong post players closer to his height. He has a nice touch to about 10 feet and is a willing mixer. Like all SLU freshmen, Bryce is learning that focus, concentration and maximum effort is expected on each and every drill. After SLU fans catch their first glimpse of IV in a couple of weeks, hopefully they will be able consider his size and skills and then project him 2-3-4 years down the road. Think back to Fish four years ago versus today, think about Sloan's four year maturing process, simply think about your first look at JJ last October versus his 15 minutes against Arizona just fourteen months later. Player development and program development takes time. On the plus side, it appears next year's perimeter recruits will start their development from a very high skill set level. Imo, our bball program is very much walking in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 If the coaching staff continues to bring in 6'10+ big men with good fundamentals, one or more of them is going to pan out. The question is, which one(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 I couldn't agree more that the basketball program is heading in the right direction. You have to understand though. IO was getting praise early on and he has done nothing to date and has impressed nobody. I also heard last year that he was adjusting to the American game and apparently hasn't done so yet. If he doesn't soon, his contribution won't be in his entire Billiken career. AS far as Husak, I can't say, as I have never seem him play and have taken the word of others. I can say that I sit right behind the Billiken bench and he is tall! Very tall! He really needs to hit the weights though as he is extremely skinny. Ian, I have seen limited play and I agree with you that we have to wait till later in the season to make an assessment. I just hope his contribution is sooner than later. I agree he will be an asset years from now, but I am hoping he can contribute later this year and definitely by next year. I will disagree with something you said though. He is tall, but he is tremendously undersized. He looks like he has a boy's body that grew very quickly and he heasn't grown into it yet. He needs to hit the weights as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 ian did not overly impress me in the couple of preseason practices i attended. i saw some good hands and some dribble skills a lot of big guys normally dont have, but he also tended to roam. drift away from the action and appear lost on occasion. let's put it this way. i think ian is the worthwhile project. he has potential that is more than size. but i do not expect him to be any great answer to our 5th player riddle that is this team's main concern right now. anyone expecting jan 1 to be a turn around day because ian is available after that might be in for a rude awakening. now i will say that come the 2005-2006 season, it wouldnt surprise me that ian has become a monster. i hope your bryce expectations are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 tseugnekillib great post that i completely buy into. missed you yesterday. where'd you sit? my whole focus on our bigs, which i apparently am doing a horrible job of presenting, is that i am having a hard time seeing any of them give us any immediate help. i definitely agree that ian and justin have big time potential. i agree that husak has an advantage that only few players ever get the god given chance at, being 7 foot plus tall. all i am saying is that i have doubts that any will be able to fill the gap that this team sorely needs to compete for an ncaa spot. considering the good group of guards we have and the high level chris sloan competes at, that is a big disappointment to me. my feelings and blame are of course misguided and i will try hard to keep them to myself hereforward. the greatest thing in the world that could happen is that justin, or tom or ian or a combination of the three prove me wrong before march. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 that said Mizzou was about to get a favorable ruling from the NCAA on all of this? Those sources (guys like Rage Dave on the Tigerboard) have been very quite the past few days. I wonder why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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