Does Brad =Grawer?

[davidnark]

My father and I watched the Richmond game together the other night, and we both cringed at how similar Brad has become to Rich Grawer.

On the positive guys, both Brad and Rich appear to be genuinely nice, honest men with the right priorities. Each also recruited and signed top local talent.

On the negative side, both Rich and Brad were/are over-coaching workaholics who at times allow their stubbornness and emotions to get in the way of smart coaching. Both coaches frequently pulled/pull the plug on players who don't execute exactly to the coach's requirements. I remember Grawer holding back Claggett's offense during his freshmen year in much the same way Kevin Lisch is being held back by Brad. I remember Grawer giving Highmark the quick hook for taking and missing shots his freshmen year much like JJ/Tommie has been given the quick hook by Brad. Both coaches also leaned/lean on less talented players at the expense of the team because the less talented players “execute” the system. The scariest thing is that the Richmond game had the feeling of disorganization and potential player mutiny that was the hallmark of Grawer's last year at SLU.

When SLU brought Brad in is head coach, Biondi told us that his goal was to have a top 50 program, and Brad told us that his goal was to win a national championship at SLU. Now, three and a half years later, the NCAA tournament is still a fantasy. The biggest success we have had to date has been moral victories against Gonzaga and UNC. I frankly don't understand why more fans aren't upset with Brad.

BRAD, QUIT HOLDING THE KIDS BACK AND LET THEM PLAY

[Billikan]

It is good to see that your never ending negative tirades against our coach continue unabated and you can join the idiot brigade that has taken over this board.

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that Brad has held Kevin back. Kevin has played great ball and he is a more disciplined and better player than he was early in the season.

Let me remind you about Rich Grawer. He made the insane promise to Lee Winfield that Julian would play big minutes and would play the point. Julian was terrible at the position and it ruined the team. It prevented Claggett from getting the minutes he deserved and it meant that Scott would never get a decent pass. Rich was a real good man but that promise was his ultimate undoing.

To say that Brad has given Tommie a "quick hook" is an outrageous statement and it just shows me that people on this board are looking for a way to stir up contraversy to hurt the team. Tommie has played big minutes all year. He has played big minutes when he played good and big minutes when he did not play as well.

The only game where he sat for an extended period of time was the Richmond game when we rallied from a huge deficit that was created while he was in the game and the rally came while he was on the bench. Make no mistake, I love Tommie and I am sure he can do great things for our Bills but I watched the tape of the Richmond game yester day and in the time he was in the game Tommie played very little defense and his effort level on defense was so low that he did not even try to fight thru screens. He made 3 bad turnovers and at least 6 baskets, including several 3 point shots were made with him in the vicinity. I just mark that up to having a bad day just like we all have from time to time. He will come back and play great. But to say that Brad has had a quick hook with Tommie this year is ridiculous.

Finally, who is your saviour coach? You always want the coach to go so what great wiz do you think is available? No one thought this was an NCAA team this year but now you say he should go because we did not make the tournament. Give him until the end of next year. if we are not a better team that is fighting for a berth in the tournament then we can possibly consider something re the coach. But to get all over him at this point with the intent to try to create discontent that will get him fired is an outrage. I am really sick and tired of people who do not understand that coaching is a very tough job dealing with impressionable young kids and this kind of post can really hurt the team and the program. When your new coach comes in he will have to start over and we are back to square one. As my wife said today, I wish that we could have a coach for 10 or 15 years so we can have some continuity. But I know you will want to have him fired after the next loss.

[courtside]

Dude get a history lesson. Look at SLU before Grawer came on board and what he did while at SLU....considering the everything else going on at the school, admin-wise, aesthetically, facilities, on and on...Rich Grawer=Miracle worker. Period.

Can't compare that time to now. Beyond silly.

Read some of the other threads ...I commented on what SLU needs to be successful. Soderberg is a big part of it...but not the only one.

Why does Tommie Liddell get a free pass???? He

gasp makes mistakes. Just because SLU doesn't have any other player near his potential on the team, doesn't mean Liddell gets a free pass on mistakes. Enough already.

Do you watch hoops?

How about this quote I read scoping the college landscape just this week. U Wisconsin-Milwaukee(UWM) coach Rob Jeter was asked why he yanked star player Joah Tucker late in a 1 point big game....after Tucker had made a a couple of mistaks in a row......Answer: Jeter matter of factly states simply..."We went with someone else."

If I had a nickel for how often I see this.....

Liddell is a Freshman, promising talent...will be a difference maker....he has a hard time currently with consistency, shooting, and finishing near the basket.

Liddell is a good solid top 100 recruit...he is not MORE than that, i.e. superhuman. He makes mistakes. Has bad games. etc....it happens.

If you want to discuss the dire need of multiple two to three in a rown recruiting classes or many other things, I'd be happy to do so....

[tseugnekillib]

1) The answer to your subject question is a big NO. While both are great guys, strong faith-bound family men, hard working and loyal, the difference is that Brad has a optimistic dream for the Billiken program that Rich never had. imo, if Rich would had shown a little more optimism about the SLU program, I believe Ms. Yow would have given him more time.

2) At every practice, Coach Soderberg pleads with his players to "just play" the game. A motion offensive, and transition basketball, gives the players great liberty to read the defense and make their own decision on which way to move. With the freedom to "just play", comes the obligation not do anything really stupid.

3) david, from reading years of your posts, I have come to believe the reason you are negative on every coach (and it would probably fit your baseball, football, hockey comments as well) is that you really believe you know more than the head coach. To me, there is a very big difference in saying that I personally would coach a particular situation differently ..... then saying ..... the professional coach is wrong. (david, I hope you have the time to coach your kids teams....you'll love and learn from the experience.)

[SLUDrew]

Some on this board act like the state of our program is so fragile that if we are hard on the coach an expect a lot out of him, it may all come crashing down?

For all the strengths the man has, and I believe they are many, he is certainly not beyond reproach.

1) He has always said that if he had it his way we would run. If any team would make a coach want to run it would be this team. I can't remember a billiken team that had more "athletes" on it, and on top of that we can't shoot in the halfcourt to save our necks. Yet we continue to plod along. Many times this year I have seen our guys get a board, a quick outlet, have numbers on the other end, and then pull it out. Now, maybe that is just the players not being aggresive enough, or maybe it is that they are afraid to make a mistake so they take the easy route and set-up the offense.

2) Coach does play his "system" guys a lot. I know many on this board like him, but Luke Meyer is just not a D-1 ballplayer. Newborne is not a D-1 ballplayer either for that matter. Yet both continue to get key minutes. KL, TL, DB, AD, IV, JJ, and BH should be your main rotation. I still think DP has a big upside and I love his speed on the floor so gets in there as well. Especially at the pace we are playing right now, you do not need to go any deeper than that. If he starts to "run" then you may need to go deeper, but not now.

[tseugnekillib]

for you to say LM is not a D1 player is insane and it tells me you know very little about D1 basketball. If you would have stated that LM is not your typical ACC type player, you get no argument from me. LM is a D1 player.

[willie]

Guest without getting involved in the Brad vs. Rich argument ,from years of reading your thoughtfull posts you have a "Father KNOWS Best Attitude". That is that the coaches always know what is best for their team. Sure they know more than we do but they are not always right,just as you and I are not always right in our proffessions. Sometimes someone from a distance can get a better picture of whats right or wrong then coaches living it on the practice floor every day. Take a JJ. I don't know what it's like dealing with this kid everyday but from a basketball sense most of us feel he makes a better team. I'm just not willing to agree that Brad ,or any coach is always right in how they deal with people. Second guessing is why a board like this exists. By the way coaching Kid's teams is very hard.

[billiken_roy]

there are 334 division one teams take that times 13 players per team my math says that is a lot of players that apparently are better than luke meyer if he is not a divison one player.

since luke is likely the 7 th or 8 th best player on the billikens, i think luke is an above average division one player.

maybe what you meant to say is that luke isnt an elite divison one player.

[tseugnekillib]

If I have a "father knows best attitude" it may come from being 64 years old and from being a father for 40 years.

As to coaching kids ..... that is where you can truly appreciate having or not having talent!

[SShoe]

Willie had great talent.

[TEE]

I don't think people should jump all over david for expressing his

opinion. I get the impression that david is beginning set expectations for what he would like to see from Saint Louis Billiken Basketball, and those expectations are HIGH. SLU is a wonderful school and SHOULD have a top 20 program, WHY NOT? Everyone has their own opinion, we all have the same agenda which is good SLU basketball. I can visualize a time, and it is not to far away when SLU puts visiting teams into the meat grinder for 40 minutes, wins 20 plus a year and two or more in the tournament. You have to have expectations, How good do you want to be?

[davidnark]

>3) david, from reading years of your posts, I have come to

>believe the reason you are negative on every coach (and it

>would probably fit your baseball, football, hockey comments

>as well) is that you really believe you know more than the

>head coach. To me, there is a very big difference in saying

>that I personally would coach a particular situation

>differently ..... then saying ..... the professional coach

>is wrong. (david, I hope you have the time to coach your

>kids teams....you'll love and learn from the experience.)

You must have me confused with another poster. I am a big Tony LaRussa fan, and I didn't have any big issues with Mike Martz. I also defended Romar while he was here, but in hindsight believe he left our program in shambles. I challenge you to dig up my posts where I criticize other coaches.

I think we differ on our views regarding what constitutes "supporting" a program. Like you, I am a season ticket holder and a member of the booster club. We both want to see the program succeed and have invested time and money in the program. Where we differ, however, is that I believe that our very well-paid coach and high-level athletic administrators should be constructively criticized and challenged when they aren't getting results. It keeps them honest. I don't take cheap shots at Brad, and I don't make personal attacks. (I don't take cheap shots at other posters for that mattter.) I offer my OPINION regarding what I think he is doing wrong as a coach. Brad has forgotten more about basketball then most of us will ever learn, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes. Heck, if fans didn't engage in debate regarding their teams and coaches, following sports wouldn't be a very interesting hobby.

[davidnark]

>It is absolutely ridiculous to say that Brad has held Kevin

>back. Kevin has played great ball and he is a more

>disciplined and better player than he was early in the

>season.

We struggle to score in the half-court set. A very strong argument can be made that Kevin is our biggest offensive threat outside of Ian in the half-court set. So why is Kevin only taking 7 or so shots per game? The staff may not be intentionally holding him back, but by not running plays for Kevin or insisting that he shoot more open looks, they are holding him back.

[SLUDrew]

Fine, if you want to get involved in semantics, Luke Meyer is a D-1 player but more of a player that should playing for some of the weaker opponents we played at the beginning of the year. Does that work for you?

If he is anyuthing more than a very limited role player then our team is not that good.

By the way, did I ever question how much you know about college basketball? I think you thibnk of D-1 athletes as they were years ago and I look at the landscape of college basketball TODAY and assess what type of athletes we need to compete.

I thought we were all Billiken fans in this forum Most of us, myself included, are season ticket holders and we all want the same for the team. We disagree and that is fine and creates good disucssion. Do we need to tell other posters they are "insane" or, "know very little about college baketball?"

[SShoe]

So I'm watching the Duke game and I thought it was interesting that Paulus made a number of freshman mistakes. A series of turnovers, etc. Coach K, arguably one of the best all-time college coaches, was obviously upset, but he didn't overreact and yank one of his best players and put in somebody else. He sticks with him, despite the mistakes. So when watching a number of the best coaches most have a set lineup and roll with their player's mistakes. Brad has trouble with that and so I think some of Nark's criticisms are definately warrented.

Brad, consistently will yank a player for mistakes they make. That can have a serious effect on a player's psyche, causing them to not want to make any mistakes. This causes them to lose aggressiveness on the offensive end, and can cause a player to tense up. JJ comes to mind. But also Danny, Kevin, Tommie, Dwayne. Sometimes you just gotta let a player be.

While most of us are upset with Brad's recent coaching, I think the majority feel he's got the program in the right direction with the local recruiting and upswing from last year's team. I honestly can't blame him for last year, because of the state of the program he inherited with the MCClain, Edwin, Pulley, Kern, Hollins departures and injuries to Reggie and Tom. But if we don't improve next year, and are still playing .500 ball, then Brad has got to be put on the hot seat.

[Tonka]

I have always wondered that as well. Why is the coach untouchable in regards to criticism? The media will say what they want to say, for the most part. Why can't somebody on this board? These coaches agree to be in the public eye and are well compensated for it - I think taking criticism should be expected and taken for what it is. I wish more public media would ask Brad the tough questions which nobody seems to do.

In regards to this post, I don't think Brad is Grawer and also agree that Brad shouldn't be held to the fire till the end of next year. That doesn't mean he can't be criticized or questioned in the process though.

[Tonka]

I don't think anyone of us are in a position to know if Luke Meyer is a D1 at this point. I personally think he definitely is but he hasn't seen enough time yet for me to draw any conclusions. Also, keep in mind that many players don't evolve till their Junior or Senior season. I don't think anybody thought Luke would come into SLU and set the world on fire and make a trememdous impact his first 2 seasons. At least I didn't.

[SLUDrew]

How dare you question coach Soderberg? Don't you know if you question him at this pivotal time you are dooming the program? What is wrong with the program anyway? We have a ton of moral victories this year. We are never going to get to the next level so why can't we just be happy being the cuddly little Billikens that every once in a while will give a good scare to a real good team.

I thought I would just save all of the "Coach is God" posters a few minutes and summarize what a post from one of them would look like.

Actually, I am a huge Soderberg supporter. Just because I question some things he does, do not infer from that that I think he is a bad coach. I think he does a great job coaching the fundamentals of defense and I would not hesitate to let my son (I do not have one yet) play for him. BUT, we are not doing him, oursleves as fans, or the program in general any favors by not questioning some of things he does.

[Taj79]

--- living with Brad. From one aspect, I think david is right ... that is, the mistake and the quick hook. Grawer did the same thing to Monroe Douglas his freshman year. It wasn't until that stopped that Monroe seemed to accept his role better.

Douglas was ballyhooed as the savior. Then the "fab five" class of Claggs/Winfield/Hmark/Smith/??? were the saviors. Then it was Hughes. Now it appears to be Liddell. Frankly, agreeing with me or not, I for one am getting tired of having "saviors."

But I think we would all agree that it is hard enough to play college basketball looking forward, let alone having to look over your shoulder because you were less than perfect in the heat of the moment. I watched the same game SShoe did today and not only did Paulus make mistakes, so too did senior Sheldon Williams, who scored what two or so points today in Duke's loss. Did Coach K yank Sheldon?

Some times talent ain't perfect. But do you yank a JJ, who many agree makes us a somewhat more talented team, and put in a Ross Varner type just to prove a point? I don't think you can do that ... not if winning is the bottom line. You live and die with the Sekue's of the world when that's all that's on your bench. How does one get a rhythem when all you're doing is yo-yo-ing up and down yanking guys when a mistake is made. It would be nice to have a "spell check" on your game to get it right the first time but that doesn't happen.

I sat right behind Brad at GeeDub and there were at least three instances where he yanked JJ in such a manner. In all three, JJ went to the bench and sat down ... hard. On one occassion, I remember Angres talking to him. On two others once Grunk gave him a hand slap and on another so did Chris Sloan. Brad never said squat to the kid. And isn't a hand slap something positive? Yet the kid was yanked. I don't get that. And I've coached before ... game time was me and the team against the opposition. No place for showmanship in my book.

I don't like the yank and I don't like the coach essentially ignoring him on the yank either. For some, a kick in the butt is needed. For others, that kick becomes a pat on the back or a rub of the shoulder. A good coach has to know what to use when, when to change his ways, and to adjust on the fly. Paterno found out freshmen CAN play.

Grawer saved the program. Then he got burned out. I like Brad. But its not above the law to question just what he is doing at time.

[Battlecat455]

I take exception to the posts which rewrite history with regard to Rich Grawer. It was hardly Grawer's lack of optimism that caused his departure. He was torpedoed by Yow. He also had little support from the administration. Does anyone remember the Craig Upchurch fiasco? Spoonhour subsequently took the program to heights not seen since the 1940's, largely with Grawer's recruits. This also coincided with the Bills' inclusion in an elite basketball conference. I believe that he only coached in the Great Midwest one year. Grawer's failure to make the tournament was in large part due to being in the substandard MCC and running into the same brickwall we encounter tomorrow; Xavier.

When Grawer took over the program, we were descibed as "braindead" and serious discussions were underway about de-emphasizing the sport entirely. The truth is that this board and the current program would likely not exist at all but for Rich Grawer. I also seem to recall that he had some issues with AB that are analogous to UB's recent issue with TL.

I'm not suggesting that Grawer should be canonized. He had his problems as a coach. However, I don't feel that he should be equated with failure, regardless of the definition of that word.

It is my feeling that UB's team is about where most folks thought they would be; hovering around .500. Really, not too bad, considering that we start 4 guards and two freshmen. It is frustrating at times, but I believe better days are ahead.

[jjray]

>>Brad, consistently will yank a player for mistakes they make. That can have a serious effect on a player's psyche, causing them to not want to make any mistakes. This causes them to lose aggressiveness on the offensive end, and can cause a player to tense up. JJ comes to mind. But also Danny, Kevin, Tommie, Dwayne. Sometimes you just gotta let a player be.<<

Agree with shoe here. Especially when the player involved is a talented freshman or soph. Also agree that Brad has done a tremendous job to dig the program out of the hole that LoRo left it in; however, game management style ala Grawer can hamper the progress of the program when it lands talented players. Brad had a bad night at Richmond but I'm not ready to lump him in with Grawer just yet. I had next to zero complaints with the way he coached the team during the NC and Zags games. Let's hope it's not trend (and I don't want to see both Dwayne and Drejaj in the starting lineup sunday).

[Bay Area Billiken]

Agreed. This business about a player making one mistake and he gets yanked has simply got to go. That is not the modern game. It does not work. It makes the players play too tentative, afraid of making that mistake. We don't need that anymore at St. Louis U.

[Bay Area Billiken]

There are certainly similarities.

First, let me say that Rich Grawer was the saviour of the St. Louis U. basketball program. There can be no doubt whatsoever about that. My four undergraduate years at SLU coincided with the "Ron Ekker Era." We were positively at rock bottom at the end of those four years. A game against #1 ranked DePaul drew something like 3,200 fans. We actually lost a home game to McKendree College. There was talk that St. Louis U. would drop down to Division 2. Then Rich Grawer was hired. And Billiken Basketball underwent a rebirth, a veritable Renaissance.

But Grawer did have that tendency to yank players after one mistake. The year after Anthony Bonner graduated, Grawer tried to play an up tempo attack ala the then Loyola-Marymount powerhouse teams. That didn't last very long, as Grawer soon reverted to the old half court, slow down game. The similarities to what Brad Soderberg said he was going to do this year are there. What happened to wanting to run, to play up tempo? Why do these players have to be yanked after one mistake? We are all human. We all make mistakes.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Rich Grawer can hardly be considered to have been a failure at SLU. He saved the SLU basketball program. He had 3 NIT teams, two of which were the NIT runner-ups. One of his teams won 27 games; another won 25 games.

I could go on and on about how bad things were with the SLU basketball program before Grawer took over. Suffice it to say that we were at rock bottom. Younger fans really have no idea how bad it was in those days. We actually lost a home game to McKendree College.

The Craig Upchurch fiasco probably cost SLU and Grawer a trip or two to the NCAA. You are right in that at that time SLU was in the MCC (now known as the Horizon League), a mid-major one bid league. And the perennial roadblock was Xavier. SLU had one good big, Anthony Bonner. Xavier always had two, one of which was Tyrone Hill. If SLU had two bigs (i.e. Upchurch to go with Bonner) perhaps SLU could have beaten Xavier.

And Charlie Spoonhour, a good coach, took two teams comprised of many Grawer recruits (Erwin Claggett, Scott Highmark) to two NCAA's.

Many thought it was unfair when Grawer was dismissed after a 5-23 year in the first year of the Great Midwest, a much harder league than the MCC, a year in which Grawer was playing those freshman recruits.

[courtside]

How in the wrold can you compare 20 years ago to now??? The situations were ...uh...er...uh...just slightly different, don'tya think?