billiken_roy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 notre dame has been there at least off and on forever. georgetown got there in the early 80's by somehow getting the ncaa's to allow patrick ewing into the school. ewing couldnt even write his tests if my memory serves me. he was granted an exemption which allowed him to take his exams verbally and untimed. until that time, i had never heard of such a thing before. once they got ewing in, (imo, patrick ewing can be argued to be one of the 5 or 6 most influential college players of all time) it was pretty easy to build around that. now once you reach the mountain top, as both notre dame and georgetown have, it is far easier to stay there and regain your footing recruitingwise. the reputation remains etched in the minds of recruits and obviously enables the coaches to use that in bringing better players to campus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Roy's history lesson on the Zags is right on and I agree that they have stayed the course; however, when Grawer was fired I felt it was justified, as to me Rich had gotten us as far as he could and he seemed to be losing control of the team. Of course both Spoon and Romar left on their own. I feel that with Coach Soderberg just getting a 5 year extension that he has at least two more seasons to right the ship. Bernie is still sore because SLU did not consult him when they hired Coach Soderberg...my memory was the he wanted them to hire Gregory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Billiken Roy, I think you have some very valid points. Whatever the reason, there has just been too much change and lack of continuity at SLU, from coaches to AD's. If I recall from my early days out here, that first Gonzaga coach was Dan Fitzgerald, who was from the Bay Area. Gonzaga was not that good in those days, an average middle of the conference team in the WCC. Next came Monson, who is the son of the old Oregon coach. Then came the current coach, Few. Few was an assistant to Monson, who is now at Minnesota. But overall, the Zags seemed to play the same type of system. As far as I recall, they have always been an up tempo team. They always had hot 3 point shooting guards from Santangelo to Frahm to Dickau to the guy they have now. Gradually, the Zags began to get the bigs too, and they have two horses inside now. SLU has gone from Rich Grawer to Charlie Spoonhour to Lorenzo Romar to Brad Soderberg, all of them with different coaching styles and philosophies. Soderberg was only with Romar one year. How many AD's has SLU had? There was Jim Bakken, followed by Joe Yates, followed by Debbie Yow, followed by Doug Woolard, followed by Cheryl Levick. I still believe that Rich Grawer was the true saviour of the Billikens and the SLU basketball program. My 4 undergraduate years coincided with Ron Ekker's 4 years at SLU. There was no Billiken mascot, until my roommate and I sat in Ekker's office our Senior year and refused to leave until he let us restore the Billiken. There was no pep band (and the current SLU band is one of the very best pep bands); there was a rent a band of some sort. We formed our own renegade band in the dorm to play at the games on the other end. There were no cheerleaders; there were the Billy Lou Strutters. I was on the SLU campus the summer that Grawer arrived and heard him tell someone that he wanted to get a band that played next to the opponent's bench. For a time the old Alumni Trumpeteers were resurrected. Cheerleaders returned. The games moved back to Kiel Auditorium, which was a great venue for college hoops. Conventional wisdom at the time of Grawer's dismissal was that he could not get SLU to the next level. Part of that was due to NCAA gerrymandering on Selection Sunday, as one Grawer team won 25 games and another won 27 games. Those records should have resulted in NCAA bids. One of those teams was 24-9 on Selection Sunday and relegated to the NIT; another was 23-9 on Selection Sunday and again went to the NIT. I hated to see Grawer get fired, but I was happy and pleasantly surprised shortly thereafter when Charlie Spoonhour was hired. Charlie Spoonhour was revered at SLU. He was a good bench coach. He went to the NCAA largely with Grawer's recruits. Then he landed Larry Hughes and made another NCAA appearance. Hughes left after one year, and Spoon resigned after the following 15-16 disappointing season. After Spoonhour resigned, Lorenzo Romar was hired from Pepperdine. Romar has proven to be a good coach. He was not there long enough at SLU, only 3 years. IMO, his chief problem was going after all those blue chip West Coast recruits that he was unable to land. Continuity is important, and SLU has not had it. Plus, SLU has played in a much, much tougher conference over the years than Gonzaga. A fairer comparison would be comparing SLU with Marquette and DePaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 "If you lose your starting center and projected top scorer your probably going to have a rough year." Am i the only one who thought the year looked rough before either of these happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiphan Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 BillikenR, Understood. The program is not without its faults but Bernie would have been better served by offering critical analysis as opposed to personal attacks on the fans. The only reason I brought up the PE "major" thing was it seems like some, not yourself, lean on that too much as an excuse as to why SLU misses some players. I wasn't sure of the exact rule so I asked. I think we can all agree that the program has not been as successful as maybe we would like it to be. I'm curious to see what people would be happy with. How many NCAA tourney and/or NIT bids every 5 years. No worse than what place in the conference standings? What do you think is realistic for the next five years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I would argue with his statement about SLU fans. No fan here or in the Saavis center would argue that SLU does not have to win more games. That is a no Brainer statement, non controversial. My problem with Bernie is that he spouts off about Gordon, makes a blanket generalization about SLU which, in some cases is true, but Gordon's case was not. Moreover, his critique is old news, and Brad has addressed it. Bernie thinks we need higher standards, I do have them, I have a standard that when a columnist writes about a subject, he needs to do the work and back his statements up. I expect the lead sports opinin writer of the post to be professional. Even in this article it is almost comical how he holds up Romar's success in Washington, as if it was SLU's fault he missed out on recruits from california. Moreover, to go back to SLU missing out on local recruits, it was Romar who missed on Brooks, Hairston, and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Alright - I am sorry but I have to respond somewhat lenghty to all this nonsense. 1. no one shoulld respond to BM. It is those of you who make enraged responses to him that cause him to do things like this article - leave it alone. 2. the Gonzaga comparison is what everyone will be making to any program in this country who does not have a football program. Just because Gonzaga found a formula that worked for them does not mean you can transplant it everywhere and get the same results - businesses are full of examples of those who brought a strategy that was successful one place but it bombed elsewhere (different factors is what causes this to happen). 3. with the changes being made by the NCAA regarding graduation rates and scholarships, most JUCO recruiting will be curtailed and everyone will be going after h.s. school kids and prep players so this is a mute point. 4. Romar has been successful at WU but his recruiting strategy was not ever going to be successful at SLU but is a fit at WU - different factors at both places. 5. the funding for the research facility is finished and the final piece of property was acquired in an out of court settlement a couple of weeks ago. Why do you think Biondi was the one who got the $1 million match donation - he said he would not get involved in raising money for the arena until the research center was fully funded. 6. the infamous missed recruits - some were not eligible but some were and we either did not recruit them or got into the game late. BM has a valid point here we all just need to accept it and move on. 7. BM's comments about expectations - I will use last night's game as an example: When the Bills were trying to hold off Memphis's late drive we were getting fouled and missing our FTs - this has been a problem all year. Now I know we finished shooting 66% but that did not happen until Luke and IO started going to the foul line at the very end and DB hit 4 in a row. Up until then we were easily shooting 50% or less. I was lamanting the fact that we have to hit our FTs and I had a person turn and look at me like I was crazy - another person by me told me that I was not be supportive of the players when I would bemoan their missed FTs and if a poor play was made by one of our players. I am sorry - I have higher expectations for this team and it includes making FTs and not turning the ball over on stupid passes. I am sorry if some others are happy with the "little engine" that could mentality but these are not 8 years old playing in a community league - they are playing D1 ball and we have every expectation that they should perform. If anybody thinks the fans at Gonzaga are sitting in the stands and not complaining when their team makes a bone-head play or misses key FTs then they are living a dream world. It is time that all of us hold this program accountable for being successful and stop accepting this "we were close" mentality as being OK. I wanted to win that game and not go home with a moral victory - I no longer am willing to accept moral victories - we must start playing and expecting to win! BM is right on this account. And, of course when things get better and he starts supporting us then some of you will say he is jumping on the band wagon - do not forget, it is not his job to support SLU just his job to report and for some of you the truth hurts but never the less it is still the truth. I have supported this team emotionally and financial for years and I have a right to expect results! - all of do and should!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SluSignGuy Posted March 3, 2005 Author Share Posted March 3, 2005 >"If you lose your starting center and projected top scorer >your probably going to have a rough year." > >Am i the only one who thought the year looked rough before >either of these happened? I am not letting you get away with that buddy. http://www.billikens.com/04-05predictions.htm 20-13 I don't think equals a rough year for SLU "before either of these happened" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ...Frericks played 11 games this year, didn't he? It didn't take 11 games to know something was awry with this bills team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Perhaps you are right that no response to Bernie M. is the best response. It may be best to not feed more to the columnist. Personally, I just don't like my double alma mater being ripped like that at this time for no legitimate reason, without taking into account the totality of the circumstances, and with the attack evidently spawned by that columnist's own failure to get his facts straight and being called on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 The responses so far from the Billiken supporters in Bernie's Press Box have been solid and well reasoned. It is best to take the high road here, knowing that better days lie ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Moofan...the thing with Tom was he had a series of concussions...I believe it was like 3. Obviously, he played games that he shouldn't have before the decision was made to shut him down for the season. In other words, he was probably NEVER even close to 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Cheesy that was a good post. It does little good to fight with Bernie. Even if your right you can't win. He does make some valid points. I'm also tired of the little engine crap. Biondi/Levick need to step up and do this building now. Winning cures everything but we need to give Brad everything he needs to win. If that means changing what we accept from Junior colleges so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Break ground on the arena NOW! Don't wait until some magical amount of money has been raised and interest rates have risen. It could be ready for the start of the '06-'07 season if they break ground today! I know that's not practical, but aren't we about to fall two years behind schedule from when it was first announced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 i am not sure there is a quanifiable number that makes me happy about the programs success. no doubt going to the tourney every year would make me very happy, but getting in trouble as mi$$ouri did would negate the whole thing. i would disown my allegiance in a second should that sort of nonsense ever happen and be allowed to go on as mi$$ouri has done by keeping $nyder around. i think that these kind of years are tollerable if progress can still be seen. for example we are losing, but we are losing with freshmen and sophomores playing major minutes and roles. now take the year before hughes, cant say that. that was miserable. or take the year after hughes. the whole team back except hughes and add love and we arent even 500? huh? that was frustrating. i guess if i have to quanify it, i want to be at the ncaa 3 out 4 years. i want to always be in the top half of the conference and be in contention for winning it every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I want to get to the point where making the N.I.T. is considered failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 The article in today's USA Today indicates that even Memphis --who had 4 juco recruits this year-- will stop recruiting juco players because of the new academic rules and penalties. Maybe we will get back to a more level playing field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 or more likely, some program will figure out how to use the jucos that were getting spread around and hit the jackpot. the suggestion by the one juco guy to treat jucos like prep schools was the best suggestion from a basketball standpoint, but it makes no sense academically. why would i want to spend that time at a juco and not get college credits for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Roy, if I remember correctly that first year Love was here he back problems and missed at least the first half of the year and never really go to be 100%. The second year when he was healthy was when we played 500 and won the CUSA tourney for the auto bid to the NCAAs tourney. I actually would like more than a 75% Big dance record - why not every year or miss one in 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 as i stated in the opening paragraph, i really am not into quanifying "success". were you satisfied with the year after hughes year? i wasnt. and yes love had back problems off and on that year, but he had really good games through out as well. and again we had everyone else back. plus the great ricky cranford was in town as well. oh i get p!ssed just remembering. spoon's worst job by far. he needed to "retire" after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Roy, not satisfied but they did get to the Big Dance and afterall that is the goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 >Roy, not satisfied but they did get to the Big Dance and >afterall that is the goal. The 1998-99 Billikens squad (the year after Hughes) did not reach postseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Thicks, I think you misread my post - I said that Love had been hurt the first year he was here - that the year after Hughes left. I also said we went to the NCAAs the year after that - would have been Romar's first year here. Spoon still was coaching when Love first came. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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