Billiken Law Drawdown

[Taj79]

Short of joey fluegel, I like everyone's posts and say to the Lawman, keep them coming. But in knowing the Lawman's pedigree, it brought me to a question and I'd like to poll the board.

The example is the Lawman ... a MU grad who is now in grad/law studies at SLU. Even if he get's a degree, is he truly "a Billiken." Does he think he is? Or once a Golden Warrior always a Golden Warrior?

I have one degree essentially, that from SLU. I have no other home from which to choose. Now, my pal, old Gen City Fan, has a son at Notre Shame and I cannot tell you how sickening it is to watch and hear him cheer for the Irish. He graduates (thankfully) this year but he can then move on and become an Illini dad with his daughter. My daughter is close to college and Maryland and Delaware are possibilities. Does being a Twerp dad or a Blue Hen rooster take away my true blue roots? I don't think so, but those dual degree issues like those of the Lawman ...... who would your allegiance rest with?

P.S. I really hate New Yorkers ... if the Mets suck they go Yankees. Giants down? Back the Jets. Nets-Knicks. Isles, Rangers and Devils make three for the party. What's the consensus? What does one do with a thicks?

[Taj79]

... with this A10 stuff, I get to drive to games at LaSalle, Temple, George Washington, and Richmond each year. Also, Duquesne, Dayton, Fordham and X are not that far out of the question. This could really turn out good! Sign Kid ... put me down for a couple of seats with you in DC.

[billiken_roy]

i personally believe you can only be a true fan to one team. you can respect, admire and observe others, but deep down, you are comparing that team to your loyalties ands just kidding yourself saying, "i am a fan of both". no you arent. you are just finding a safe landing in case you miss with your team. but one team truly has your heart.

the closest i come to being a two team fan is baseball where i am a longtime braves fan (in the fourth grade i was traded to atlanta with orlando cepeda for joe torre) and getting caught up in the cardinals occasionally. however when the playoffs roll around, i am glued to the set watching the el bravos close but no cigar act. btw, for those of you thinking i am just a bandwagon jumper for the braves, yeah, sure. you dont know the pain i suffered those years rooting for ralph garr, phil niekro, dale murphy, etc. a lot of heartache until the 90's i can assure you.

[billiken_roy]

i can just see you handing him the signs, both of you wearing your billikens.com gray t's and wearing your blue billiken hats.

btw, steve, you cant fool me, you wont ever waive signs for the gw team. so take that signature off there! :-)

[Tonka]

Roy, I think that's pretty subjective. I guess you have to define what the term "true fan" means. And then again, that is subjective in itself.

[Schasz]

I am a SLU Alum and no one on this website is any more passionate about the SLU Billikens in basketball. I like college football equally as well as I like college hoops, and SLU has no team. Before my lovely wife came along there was only one major college football team in the state so I became a Mizzou football fan and had season tickets from the Onofrio era until I jumped off Woody's Wagon.

In the meantime I met and married my wife who happened to be a UT Vols Alum. After my first visit to see UT play at Neyland Stadium, I instantly became a UT Vols fan and I'd wager that I am every bit as passionate a fan as many graduates of that school. While I might watch a UT basketball game, I don't consider myself a fan. I think it is easy to be a fan of more than one U especially seeing our circumstance of no football team. Go Vols...run the table and get that BCS bowl game!!!

[billiken_roy]

i agree you can be a fan of more than one school or team in different sports. but i just dont believe you can like two schools equally. one has your attention.

[slufanskip]

I grew up a huge OU fan ...and am still a huge OU fan, I follow them closely and even subscribe to Sooner Illustrated.

Since moving to St.Louis in '90 and starting to go to all the Bills games I have become a bigger SLU fan. I love college sports more than the pros. If OU played SLU I would have to cheer for SLU ... but it would be difficult.

I am not a college grad ... so I don't have that alumni bond ... but still live and die with the Bills ... even going to sit in the car to hear the game if it is not on TV anywhere as I can't get good reception.

So I would say like Roy ... my heart can only truly belong to one team.

[Schasz]

Yes, but Roy has already told us he doesn't care for college football at all...nothing wrong with that. We're different in that respect as I think there is nothing to match the pageantry of major college football. Right now, I'm trying to figure out what bowl game the Vols will play in, as if it is here in FL then we will want to go if we can get our hands on tickets.

I am waiting for the day until SLU plays the Vols in basketball...it could have happened last year in the NIT if we had each won a couple rounds. We'll have a friendly dispute in our house if, and when that happens.

[TheA_Bomb]

I am a SLU FAN. I think in the case of the Billiken Barrister he should be a MU fan. Most people will stick with their undergrad school for sports loyalties. I am also an Auburn fan (we beat UT earlier this year) so much so I am flying to see the AU v. Bama game next week. SLU doesn't have college football so no conflict there. However, if SLU ever played them in basketball or anyother sport I would talk so much trash to the rest of my family (all AU fans).

Roy, I didn't know you were a Braves Fan I knew I liked you for some reason. When I was a kid in GA we would go to Fulton County to buy tickets and ask, "what time does the game start?" The ticket vendor would say, "What time can you show up?" That's how badly I suffered. Hey I got Dale Murphy, Charlie Kerchiff (really fat pitcher for the Braves back in 89'), Francisco Cabrera (before the rbi driving in Sid Bream the slowest man in the MLB in the NLCS), Terry Pendleton, and even Claudell Washington's autographs back in the day.

[Schasz]

A Bomb...I know all about that Auburn game as that loss is what is keeping the Vols from being right in the BCS hunt even though the team is lacking in the skill positions, especially WR. I hope your team takes care of GA tomorrow while Holtz and his boys take care of those Gators.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Roy, I disagree with you. I consider myself a fan of both SLU and Missouri. Sure, SLU is more intesting to me (it's closer, so that I may go to games and practices and have gotten to meet the players and coaches), but make no mistake: I want Missouri to win. I want Mizzou to win the National Championship this year.

I didn't graduate from either SLU or Mizzou. My degree is from UMSL, and while I guess I want the Rivermen to win (and I hope Chris Pilz does well as the coach), I couldn't care less about going to an UMSL game. Nor do I have their website bookmarked so I can read about each game and compile the stats. I do those things for both SLU and Missouri.

As I've said before, I'm just a homer. Saint Louis and Missouri are my home teams. It all comes down to a decision. I've decided to root for SLU and Missouri, and I've done so for 15 years. As long as the programs aren't dirty, I'm going to root for them.

[Quickdraw]

I was with you down to your final sentence. Exactly what does it take to convince you that a program is "dirty?"

[Quality Is Job 1]

First of all, don't judge me on one post; rather, judge me on my "body of work." I've been saying for some time now that I've been favoring Saint Louis more and Missouri less. I've also said that it isn't as much fun to follow Missouri as before or compared to SLU. I even suggested as much in the post you responded to.

To answer your question, I'll be convinced that Missouri is dirty when the NCAA announces that they've found major violations and a pattern of behavior indicative of a renegade program. I fear they may do something like that, but I'm hoping not. If they hit Missouri with major sanctions, then Quin Snyder should be fired, period. If he's not fired, I'll consider not following Missouri until he's gone or until he demonstrates he'll play by the rules (hmm -- yeah, right! If he's been following them, except for a couple of honest minor mistakes, all along then there should be no sanctions, but if he's been intentionally bending, subverting, or breaking rules, then I don't think he'll change). But, at this point Ricky Clemons is gone and I don't think the other players were gotten by shady means, and I've gotten "attached" to them, so I won't stop rooting for them. I don't think it's fair for them to put out all that they have to have a chance at a championship taken away because their coach was short-sided and sneaky.

I know many of you have already convicted Missouri of being dirty in your hearts because you hate Mizzou and WANT them to be tarnished, but I'm waiting for the NCAA announcement (but some of you hate Missouri so much that even if the NCAA announces it found nothing major and gives Snyder and Alden a slap on the wrist for the extra benefit of some promotioal clothing, you'll say that they just got away with dirty behavior thanks to "inducements" by Missouri boosters). If the shoe were on the other foot, I would give SLU the same consideration. Hey, SLU has been sanctioned for major violations before: how many fans totally gave up on the program then?

[slufanskip]

I agree with your statement ... it is not fair to the players to be punished for a coach.

The NCAA is a joke on this. If a coach gets nailed for major violations ... he and the players involved (including the Head Coach involved or not) should be suspended for 1 year for the 1st violation. They should not be allowed to have anything to do with the NCAA during that period, including TV work.

Take away a coaches million dollar salary for a year he will learn the rules and pay attention to his subordinates. The player loses a year of eligibility and can not participate with any team in any way.

[billiken_roy]

thicks said, "As long as the programs aren't dirty, I'm going to root for them."

well if that sentence doesnt make your whole post a contradiction i dont know what does.

[billiken_roy]

thicks, clemons isnt the only player that was brought in by ill gotten gains. they have admitted to trickery with johnson, paulding, conley and now pulley. they continue to use the "i didnt know" in the explanation, but it is a fact that there were illegal phone calls, visits, grades, plane rides etc involved to some degree with all of them.

[bonwich]

Well, if you really want some multidirectional loyalties, consider my situation: I was born in South Bend into a family of native South Benders and spent a good part of the first six years of my life on the Notre Dame campus, even to the point of playing catch with the ND coach after practice. (He would go on to be the most forgettable ND coach in history, a pattern that has haunted my fandom ever since.) So if there's a Notre Dame football game on, I watch it -- unless it conflicts with a Billiken basketball game.

Luckily, at age 7 the old man switched from ND to SLU and immediately started taking me to games, so that loyalty became the strongest. Then when I was at SLU myself, I spent lots of time volunteering in the athletic department to try to promote the program during the reign of two (or was it three -- I can never remember if Albrecht-called-Albright was coach while I was actually there) of the most forgettable coaches in SLU history. They rewarded me by dropping my beloved hockey program and threatening to drop all athletics to D2.

So then I went to the University of Wisconsin, which at that time had basically the worst football and basketball teams in the Big 10. (I never could get into Badger hockey, whose fandom lacked the spontaneity and cleverness of the smaller but louder Billiken fan base.) The one redeeming part of the Wisconsin experience was that, about 15 years later, it proved that it was, in fact, possible to improve an athletic program's lot in life. (It's perhaps not coincidental which state is also home to last year's Cinderella Final Four team and is the native state of a certain up-and-coming coach.)

Anyway, I'd have to disagree that you can't have strong ties to multiple schools, especially out here in the land of the team that invented the forward pass but no longer has a football team.

[billiken_roy]

skip, i agree and dont agree. i would hate to see innocent players going down with a program. in missouri's case though, you have to look pretty hard to find an impact player that wasnt involved in one of snyder's escapades though. i.e. they are as guilty as the coach. the ncaa goes to great lengths to educate the players about what they can or cannot do. they know when they are committing a violation. the fact is that they are agreeing to turn their head.

[Schasz]

I still follow the Mizzou football program from afar...kind of hard to completely forget all the years I spen going to games at Faurot Field. I watched a lot of their win over the Huskers at the sports bar in Tampa that we go to watch the UT games with the Tampa Chapter of UT Vol fans. I still enjoy seeing Mizzou win in football, and I am pleased that Gary Pinkel (who I think has a lot of Brad's attributes) has the football program on the right track.

[TheA_Bomb]

We are in the same boat the loss to Ole Miss put AU out of SEC West contention. AU can beat UGA the road team always wins for some reason.

[Major Majerus]

I think a cornerstone of the Jesuit philosophy is that it's never too late to see the light - i.e., seek forgiveness. Thus we must open our arms to all who find Billiken Nation, regardless of how late it comes in life. I matriculated at Swamp-east MO, yet had early Billiken training by my dad, a double SLU grad, and at SLUH. Welcome Billiken Law.

[Scrivener]

Great topic, Taj. I'm surprised to say that, considering the source... ;-)

My two cents: Only one team leads me to act like a fool in public -- the Billikens. (When the Billikens beat Minnesota in the Big Dance a few years back, I jumped up and down so enthusiastically in my office that my downstairs "neighbors" actually poked their heads in our suite, to make sure that someone hadn't been murdered.)

That said, I have lost my voice at Cardinal games...and the Rams can get my blood racing from time to time. And I get this warm feeling in my heart when other "favorite" teams do well -- including a few college b-ball squads. (Any Majerus-coached team, for example... or most other Jesuit schools when they're not playing the Billikens.)

But I don't understand how thicks and others can divide their loyalties between SLU and Mizzou. I believe that thicks is sincere in saying so...I just don't understand it. There's bad blood between the two programs, IMHO. And I usually find that I get that same warm feeling in my heart when Mizzou loses...as when my "second-favorite" teams win.

[SluSignGuy]

hehe.. I have been to one GW game so far (only exhibition), and boy were they pitiful. No inside game, and Brad would of had a heart attack if he saw the first half, god they did not take care of the ball at all. I plan to attend a lot of games, I just enjoy going to them, College Basketball is by far the best sport, and I might as well take advantage to 4 years of it for FREE. (BTW Savviss is a palace, a plain palace (they microwave the hot dogs here))

But you are right I won't waive signs for GW, too much work (making all those things), I am a SLU Faithful but a GW Student. So maybe my "blue" hat will be a little darker shade of blue with yellow on it... We will see, I want to see other games. I mean, this place will be my Alma mater...

Steve

[Quality Is Job 1]

If George Washington gets good within the next four years, there may be a real battle for the loyalty of the SluSignGuy. I mean, what happens if he gets a big-time job in D.C. (in some up-and-coming politician's campaign headquarters?) and never returns to St. Louis?

The reason that SLU will always be first in my heart is that I didn't become a fan of college hoops until after I'd started college, and the schools I attended were Div. III (Lake Forest) and Div. II (UMSL). Such is not the case for Steve.