A-10 vs. Big East

[JettFlight5]

Irrespective of Big East NCAA bids, it is always refreshing to see our "Jesuit Brethren" from Marquette lose, especially at home.

Are those fellow SLU Law School Alumni, whose loyalties lie with Marquette, aware of this latest tragic loss?

I doubt the Johnnies get in anyway absent winning the Big East Tournament.

But it will be a very interesting Selection Sunday this year.

I'm a SLU Law Alum, but I don't like Marquette. Is that allowed here?

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'm a SLU Law Alum, but I don't like Marquette. Is that allowed here?

Are SLU Law School Alumni who were Marquette undergrads a "suspect class?"

[Clock_Tower]

In many threads, including this one, you have pointed out that the RPI is the key determinant for seeding, have you not? Do you realize that Butler had an RPI of 22 last year on selection Sunday? That translates into a 6 seed, right? So you and Clock need to stop with the conspiracy crap that somehow Butler didn't deserve the 6 seed and it was based on reputation. It was based on RPI!

You do understand that the committee looks at a full season right and not just the order of finish in conference when determining its seed, right? Your comments about LaSalle mae me wonder if you understand how it works.

I was at the NCAA tourney game in 1994 when we were a 7 seed and lost to Joe Smith and Maryland. I don't need a lesson on SLU's history, thank you very much. But if you want an objective view on whether Butler's 6 seed plus one NCAA victory season from last year qualifies as a better season then SLU's 7 seed and first round loss, then yes it does. And doesn't it speak volume that Butler's 2012-13 season which you characterize as just good is better than all but one of SLU's 30+ past seasons?

We have never been in the Sweet 16 in the modern tournament structure. Counting periods when there were only 16 teams in the tourney doesn't count. Hell, last year I saw tickers on ESPN and CBS saying we we one win away from our first Sweet 16 appearance. I guess they forget to check with you first on that one!

Shoe. Stop the dishonesty bs. All you are doing is spinning facts in your fact and then acting like you are superior to everyone -- yet again. Sorry, but your sh#t stinks like it does for the rest of us MBMs and is getting old. First, Butler deserved the invite to the Big East over us due their prior 15 year record, their recent Final Fours and their head coach at the time. Stop acting like don't believe that. Second, Butler had some nice wins last year -- mostly early in the season -- but then were blown out on several occasions and also had some other bad losses. Reread their record/stats: they were only 11-5 and tied for 3rd with 2 other teams in the A10 and lost early in the A10 Tourney. Stop acting like they were really good last year just to make your argument.

[kshoe]

Shoe. Stop the dishonesty bs. All you are doing is spinning facts in your fact and then acting like you are superior to everyone -- yet again. Sorry, but your sh#t stinks like it does for the rest of us MBMs and is getting old. First, Butler deserved the invite to the Big East over us due their prior 15 year record, their recent Final Fours and their head coach at the time. Stop acting like don't believe that. Second, Butler had some nice wins last year -- mostly early in the season -- but then were blown out on several occasions and also had some other bad losses. Reread their record/stats: they were only 11-5 and tied for 3rd with 2 other teams in the A10 and lost early in the A10 Tourney. Stop acting like they were really good last year just to make your argument.

Clock, I never accused YOU of suggesting that Butler didn't belong in the BE. I accused BAB of suggesting that.

I accused you of downplaying that they had a good 2012-13 season after you said this:

Shoe. Then start being honest yourself. Yes, butler was a 6 seed last year but they were a weak 6 seed and did not earn a 6 seed based upon their on the court efforts last year but was given a 6 seed bc of their prior success, coach, name..

All I did from there was prove that Butler had a 22 RPI and was completely justified in its 6 seed.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Clock, I never accused YOU of suggesting that Butler didn't belong in the BE. I accused BAB of suggesting that.

I accused you of downplaying that they had a good 2012-13 season after you said this:

Shoe. Then start being honest yourself. Yes, butler was a 6 seed last year but they were a weak 6 seed and did not earn a 6 seed based upon their on the court efforts last year but was given a 6 seed bc of their prior success, coach, name..

All I did from there was prove that Butler had a 22 RPI and was completely justified in its 6 seed.

It's not a mere suggestion.

Butler did not and does not belong in the Big East, for multiple reasons, and certainly not in SLU's seat.

If SLU gets in the Big East, then I am fine with Butler's presence there because you always need an opponent you know you can beat.

Why don't we agree to disagree? We are ultimately on the same side.

It's a lot more fun debating VCWho and Bonnie interlopers anyway.

[majerus mojo]

So what counts? The '50's don't count, the 60's don't count, the 70's don't count (save and except for Creighton's last Sweet 16 appearance in 1974), in your world the '80's don't count, in your world the '90's don't count. It looks like the only thing that does count is Butler's 2 final game appearances, right? Your point is made. Got it.

Almost positive this is exactly how the Big East looked at it.. Sub Doug McDermott and a full arena for Creighton's qualifications.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Almost positive this is exactly how the Big East looked at it.. Sub Doug McDermott and a full arena for Creighton's qualifications.

In Butler's case, yes.

In Creighton's case, it wasn't anywhere near quite that simple. Those two were factors in Creighton's favor, however.

[Dwayne's_World]

Creighton and Butler will both be garbage next year. If I was the commissioner of the big east, I would be looking at my options in expanding fast. Adding the St. Louis market to the big east will be huge for the tv ratings.

Let's be honest, the casual sports fans in St. Louis that don't really follow Billiken basketball will be more inclined to watch our games if we are playing the likes of Georgetown/Villanova/Marquette. Granted, some of those teams are having down years, but they will return to the top 25. The big east will expand if they know they can get better ratings. Why in God's name would they hold off letting slu in if they knew they'd be losing out on potential $$$?

[brianstl]

In Butler's case, yes.

In Creighton's case, it wasn't anywhere near quite that simple. Those two were factors in Creighton's favor, however.

Creighton has better connections and relationships with the other member schools.

[MB73]

Summary:

• SLU didn't get into the BE because Biondi did not give a sh*t, not just at the critical time, but for so many years.
• Butler will continue to falter, their run is over, Stevens is gone.
• Creighton will also slip, especially if coach McDermott leaves for a power conference gig, which I anticipate.
• St. Johns deserves to get into the NCAA's, so talented, jelling.
• I hope Marquette loses every game the next five years, with that Curly Howard looking motherf*cker coach and all the thugs he recruits.
• We NEED to get into the BE for so many solid important reasons... I think it will happen.

[slufan13]

I would assume Butler does better with attendance than we do. Could be wrong. I really don't know.

[JettFlight5]

I would assume Butler does better with attendance than we do. Could be wrong. I really don't know.

I think the attendance is pretty close.

[JMM28]

MB - I agree with your points except McDermott. He has already gone the BCS route and failed. I'd assume Creighton is his forever job. Or until he gets fired because his son isn't there anymore.

[JettFlight5]

MB - I agree with your points except McDermott. He has already gone the BCS route and failed. I'd assume Creighton is his forever job. Or until he gets fired because his son isn't there anymore.

I'd bet on the latter.

[MB73]

MB - I agree with your points except McDermott. He has already gone the BCS route and failed. I'd assume Creighton is his forever job. Or until he gets fired because his son isn't there anymore.

HA! I went 5-1.

Re McDermott, I agree to some extent, but if the right deal is offered, McDermott might get out of Creighton on a high note while he can... and some power schools who lose their coach might see him as an attractive alternative.

We shall see.

[Natty]

Creighton and Butler will both be garbage next year. If I was the commissioner of the big east, I would be looking at my options in expanding fast. Adding the St. Louis market to the big east will be huge for the tv ratings.

Creighton loses 64.8% of their scoring next season. SLU loses 74.5%. If you want to assume they'll be garbage because of what they lose, well... go right ahead.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Creighton loses 64.8% of their scoring next season. SLU loses 74.5%. If you want to assume they'll be garbage because of what they lose, well... go right ahead.

Spring forward!

Do we already have an early Sunday Morning visit from yet another follower of the former "Richmond Professional Institute" (RPI), complete with apparently researched percentages? I see they were interloping on this Board last night too, Saturday Night in Cyberspace, Somewhere or is it Nowhere, USA. My, my, they sure are interested in Saint Louis U., aren't they? Do they crave our Stamp of Approval? They clearly have an incessant need to be noticed, and that is obvious from the backs of their team's warm up tops.

They say to not feed the Trolls, but in VCWho's case, feeding is too much fun. They are already making bold predictions about SLU's imminent doom in Brooklyn. They are joined by the Bonnie from the Enchanted Mountains in that regard. What a wannabe combination they make- Gimmick and Bonawelders. Of course, neither are guaranteed to even be playing SLU. But we wouldn't want that little technicality to stop their bold predictions.

As for Creighton, among the departees is probable National Player of the Year, Doug McDermott. Now you Richmond Professional institute folks, double and triple check your stats to make sure you've included Dougie, and report back to us.

[Clock_Tower]

Clock, I never accused YOU of suggesting that Butler didn't belong in the BE. I accused BAB of suggesting that.

I accused you of downplaying that they had a good 2012-13 season after you said this:

Shoe. Then start being honest yourself. Yes, butler was a 6 seed last year but they were a weak 6 seed and did not earn a 6 seed based upon their on the court efforts last year but was given a 6 seed bc of their prior success, coach, name..

All I did from there was prove that Butler had a 22 RPI and was completely justified in its 6 seed.

Here we go again…. The topic at issue is the A10 v. the new Big East and whether Butler should have taken SLU's seat as a founding member. Bay Area makes many great points -- all of which are appreciated and enjoyable to read. You, KShoe, apparently don't agree and then attack him and anyone with him as being dishonest. Sad but typical. Then, to support your position, you have now become Butler's biggest fan giving us the spin (I'd call it borderline dishonesty - your word not mine) to convince us that Butler was really a good team last year. So now let's focus on your side issue which avoids the topic at hand.

Butler was not that great of a team last year. They lacked a true point guard and got exposed badly. Yes, they did beat a really good IU team and a mediocre N. Carolina (24-10) in the early season and did beat good Marquette early in the season - in Hawaii - by one (1) point. But before that, they did lose to a bad Xavier (17-14) team by 15 points. And then later in the year, they lost to an average Illini (22-13) team by 17 points, they lost to us three (3) times including a blowout win here at home. Coming down the stretch/end of the season, Butler not only lost to us (second time) at Hinkle but then followed that up with a 32 humiliating loss at VCU!! Good teams don't lose by 32 points!!! Of course, teams are given a second chance in their conference tournaments and Butler against lost to us for a third time.

And yes, Butler did have an RPI of 22 around the time they were seeded by the NCAA. But they also had a ranking of 29 in the AP, of 31 in the Coaches Poll and 34 in the NPI. With recent losses to the better A10 teams (SLU and VCU) and their A10 semi-final loss to SLU (third time), their RPI did not fall but their rankings ended at the above 29, 31 and 34. Pick whatever ranking you want but teams that ranked by the NCAA Committee as being 21-24 get the 6 seeds and teams ranked 25-28 get the 7 seeds while teams ranked in 29-34 get the 8/9 seeds. And by comparison, SLU had an RPI of 16 around the time they were seeded as a 4 by the NCAA while having a ranking of 13 in the AP, 13 in the Coaches Poll and 11 in the NPI. NCAA gave SLU what they deserved -- a 4 seed while it gave Butler a favorable 6 seed based upon their prior accomplishments. The numbers just don't back up your suggestions.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Here we go again…. The topic at issue is the A10 v. the new Big East and whether Butler should have taken SLU's seat as a founding member. Bay Area makes many great points -- all of which are appreciated and enjoyable to read. You, KShoe, apparently don't agree and then attack him and anyone with him as being dishonest. Sad but typical. Then, to support your position, you have now become Butler's biggest fan giving us the spin (I'd call it borderline dishonesty - your word not mine) to convince us that Butler was really a good team last year. So now let's focus on your side issue which avoids the topic at hand.

Butler was not that great of a team last year. They lacked a true point guard and got exposed badly. Yes, they did beat a really good IU team and a mediocre N. Carolina (24-10) in the early season and did beat good Marquette early in the season - in Hawaii - by one (1) point. But before that, they did lose to a bad Xavier (17-14) team by 15 points. And then later in the year, they lost to an average Illini (22-13) team by 17 points, they lost to us three (3) times including a blowout win here at home. Coming down the stretch/end of the season, Butler not only lost to us (second time) at Hinkle but then followed that up with a 32 humiliating loss at VCU!! Good teams don't lose by 32 points!!! Of course, teams are given a second chance in their conference tournaments and Butler against lost to us for a third time.

And yes, Butler did have an RPI of 22 around the time they were seeded by the NCAA. But they also had a ranking of 29 in the AP, of 31 in the Coaches Poll and 34 in the NPI. With recent losses to the better A10 teams (SLU and VCU) and their A10 semi-final loss to SLU (third time), their RPI did not fall but their rankings ended at the above 29, 31 and 34. Pick whatever ranking you want but teams that ranked by the NCAA Committee as being 21-24 get the 6 seeds and teams ranked 25-28 get the 7 seeds while teams ranked in 29-34 get the 8/9 seeds. And by comparison, SLU had an RPI of 16 around the time they were seeded as a 4 by the NCAA while having a ranking of 13 in the AP, 13 in the Coaches Poll and 11 in the NPI. NCAA gave SLU what they deserved -- a 4 seed while it gave Butler a favorable 6 seed based upon their prior accomplishments. The numbers just don't back up your suggestions.

Butler beat Seton Hall yesterday to finish 4-14 in the new Big East, in 9th place in that 10 team league, 1 game ahead of last place and bottom feeder DePaul. 4-14 for a Baseball pitcher usually means sayonara for the following year. Unfortunately, there has been no word of a Relegation Clause in the Big East contract in which Butler could be relegated back to the Horizon League, where it belongs, and replaced by SLU.

Evidently "the Presidents" did get what they wanted- another lousy also ran. After all, Georgetown (8-10, 7th Place, playing in 7-10 opening round game in Big East Tournament, but sweep of Butler) and Marquette (9-9, 6th Place, split with Butler) did need someone they could beat.

As for last season, I was at the Butler at SLU game in which SLU annihilated Butler in a total blowout. I have never been prouder to be a Billiken than that night. And not to defend Marquette, of all teams, but that Butler win last year over Marquette in Maui was on a buzzer beating Butler prayer- even if Butler is not a Catholic school, but was picked to play this year in the de facto Catholic League.

[majerus mojo]

I'm pretty sure all kshoe was doing was pointing out why the committee chose Butler over SLU, which, they did. Anyone with a serious problem with their 6-seed must imagine the committee to be perfect in formulating the bracket each year. It was close enough.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Butler beat Seton Hall yesterday to finish 4-14 in the new Big East, in 9th place in that 10 team league, 1 game ahead of last place and bottom feeder DePaul. 4-14 for a Baseball pitcher usually means sayonara for the following year. Unfortunately, there has been no word of a Relegation Clause in the Big East contract in which Butler could be relegated back to the Horizon League, where it belongs, and replaced by SLU.

Evidently "the Presidents" did get what they wanted- another lousy also ran. After all, Georgetown (8-10, 7th Place, playing in 7-10 opening round game in Big East Tournament, but sweep of Butler) and Marquette (9-9, 6th Place, split with Butler) did need someone they could beat.

As for last season, I was at the Butler at SLU game in which SLU annihilated Butler in a total blowout. I have never been prouder to be a Billiken than that night. And not to defend Marquette, of all teams, but that Butler win last year over Marquette in Maui was on a buzzer beating Butler prayer.

I am not big Butler fan but I have to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Since a NCAA appearance is the primary goal.

Take the last decade (03-13): Butler appearances 7, SLU 2

SLU never made it past the 3rd round in those 2. Butler has 2 sweet 16s and 2 championship appearances.

I wish it was but its not even close.

Now if you want to argue the future of both programs, that's open for debate but still just speculation. Personally I think Butler will be the next DePaul.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I am not big Butler fan but I have to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Since a NCAA appearance is the primary goal.

Take the last decade (03-13): Butler appearances 7, SLU 2

SLU never made it past the 3rd round in those 2. Butler has 2 sweet 16s and 2 championship appearances.

I wish it was but its not even close.

Now if you want to argue the future of both programs, that's open for debate but still just speculation. Personally I think Butler will be the next DePaul.

My point is Butler did that as the only fish in the little Horizon League pond.

How many of those NCAA appearances in the last decade would Butler have even have had, as in at all, had Butler been in SLU's leagues, the then rugged C-USA and even the Atlantic 10? And the same argument can be made against Creighton coming out of the mid-major Missouri Valley.

As I noted above, absent winning that (mid-major) Horizon League Tournament title, that 2nd Butler final game may well not have happened because there was a very good chance Butler would not have received an NCAA At Large bid from the traditional Juan Bid Horizon League.

That is where the Big East decision makers fell short in making their assessments.

As the late Paul Harvey would say, "and now you know the rest of the story." It's too bad the decision makers either did not know, or ignored, the rest of the story. It was patently obvious to this observer.

[MusicCityBilliken]

My point is Butler did that as the only fish in the little Horizon League pond.

How many of those NCAA appearances in the last decade would Butler have even have had, as in at all, had Butler been in SLU's leagues, the then rugged C-USA and even the Atlantic 10? And the same argument can be made against Creighton coming out of the mid-major Missouri Valley.

As I noted above, absent winning that (mid-major) Horizon League Tournament title, that 2nd Butler final game may well not have happened because there was a very good chance Butler would not have received an NCAA At Large bid from the traditional Juan Bid Horizon League.

That is where the Big East decision makers fell short in making their assessments.

As the late Paul Harvey would say, "and now you know the rest of the story." It's too bad the decision makers either did not know, or ignored, the rest of the story. It was patently obvious to this observer.

Yea, you can argue that point till the cows come home. Fact, they did very well in those tourneys. You can say it was luck, I wish we had some of that luck.

I do think we have the better future with the building of Chaifetz, hiring of Majerus (unfortunate passing but the hiring of his handpicked successor), increased budget, etc..

Hopefully we are in the next heat.

[JMM28]

BAB - if my aunt had balls, I'd call her my uncle.

Butler has been better than SLU the last 10-15 years. That's why they are in.

[JettFlight5]

As much as I hate Butler, they're in and not going anywhere.

At the same time, the Eastern Focus of Father Biondi has us in the A-10.