OT: Saint Louis Cardinals new players

[slufanskip]

I wouldn't trade Miller. On the pitcher front I was talking more about Kelly and Lynn.

On Adams you either keep him or Oscar. Not enough spots in the starting line up for both. I think Oscar brings more to the table long term, but would be willing to part with either in the right deal.

I'd part with anyone in the right deal. I don't know on Lynn part of me thinks he'll mature and pitch as well as his stuff says he should, but part of me thinks not. Kelly seems too hittable for his stuff, puts too many people on base for me. I'm not sure their value is so high though, a team like Baltimore that badly needs starting pitching wouldn't give up 1 year of Hardy for either or so it seems.

I disagree on Adams and OT having enough ab's. Matt H. is getting older, Craig hasn't shown the abiltity to stay healthy, you have more DH games. I'd play OT in center with Craig in left and Adams at 1b against righties alot and Bourjos would sit. It never hurts to have depth. Injuries happen.

What caliber of player do you trade Matt A for?

[slu72]

Is this why the Billikens are never relevant in St Louis Sports. We 're playing our biggest "move" game of the year and the lead thread is about the Card' s new players? C'mon, man, it's all about hoops. Billiken hoops!

[slufanskip]

Is this why the Billikens are never relevant in St Louis Sports. We 're playing our biggest "move" game of the year and the lead thread is about the Card' s new players? C'mon, man, it's all about hoops. Billiken hoops!

There isn't really a lead thread. The one that's last posted on moves to the top and you just moved it to the top again with your post lol

[Schasz]

Really like what Mo accomplished and he did it without trading any of our young cost controlled talent. What some of the supposed Cards fans forgot was how many pitchers we went thru in the 2013 162 marathon. We are in good shape next year if someone goes on the DL since we kept everyone. I was surprised when I saw where Peralta ranked ahead of Drew in fielding last year. I already knew he was a better hitter.

[GOSLU68]

Is Furcal still our player or his contract over?

[brianstl]

I'd part with anyone in the right deal. I don't know on Lynn part of me thinks he'll mature and pitch as well as his stuff says he should, but part of me thinks not. Kelly seems too hittable for his stuff, puts too many people on base for me. I'm not sure their value is so high though, a team like Baltimore that badly needs starting pitching wouldn't give up 1 year of Hardy for either or so it seems.

I disagree on Adams and OT having enough ab's. Matt H. is getting older, Craig hasn't shown the abiltity to stay healthy, you have more DH games. I'd play OT in center with Craig in left and Adams at 1b against righties alot and Bourjos would sit. It never hurts to have depth. Injuries happen.

What caliber of player do you trade Matt A for?

It isn't an option anymore because they got Fielder, but having him be a piece for a player like Profar would appeal to me.

[slu72]

There isn't really a lead thread. The one that's last posted on moves to the top and you just moved it to the top again with your post lol

Skip, baseball's over. You lost to Sawx. Time to move on. I'm pretty sure in St. Lou u guys have multiple Card's boards to post on about your new players.

[Bizziken]

Your talking about ridiculous contracts and then you want to lose Miller, Adams and a reliever for a guy who will make 134 mil dollars over the next 7 years so a little over 19 mil per. This is for his age 29 through 35 seasons. This same guy that has only played over 130 games 3 out of the 7 years he's been in the league ( not counting his first partial year where he played a few games) and only averaged about 121 a year. And he's averaged this in what should be his healthiest years ages 22 through 28. How many games do you think he'll average over the next 7? Any estimate that he'll be healthy as he ages is ludicrous. Hell I'd have to seriously think about taking him for free if I had to pay that entire contract much less give up Miller, Adams, plus.

It doesn't matter how many starters we have, it's been proven time and time again you can't have too many.

Free agent pitching is the riskiest sign. Look we paid 10 mil a year for Jake.

Listen, do I think the Cardinals will get Tulo? No...but I do think they should try. It's a myth that Tulowitzski can't stay healthy.

2007- 155 Games/609 ABs

2008- 101 Games/377 ABs (Got Hurt)

2009- 151 Games/543 ABs

2010- 122 Games/470 ABs (Stint on 15-Day DL)

2011- 143 Games/537 ABs

2012- 47 Games/181 ABs (Got Hurt)

2013- 126 Games/446 ABs (Stint on 15-Day DL)

7 Seasons: 3 Full, 3 Partial (over 100 Games), and 1 Injury Riddled. His WAR is off the charts for his position, and he could help us win 2 World Series NOW.

Yes, he's making about $18.5 Million per year (on average) until 2020...that's not TOO much given the expected influx of payroll. Plus, the Rockies already have Tulo's replacement in Trevor Story. I could give a crap about Adams (I think he's the next Chris Duncan). And if we can keep Siegrist and Rosenthal, I'd say the Cardinals should seriously consider it. Miller would be a HUGE loss, but with Wainwright, Lynn, Kelly, Garcia, Martinez, Wacha, Rosenthal (who wants to start), Jenkins, Gast, Lyons, and Gonzalez I think we can field a pretty decent rotation. To me, it would boil down to Miller for Tulo.

[Schasz]

Is Furcal still our player or his contract over?

His contract is up and he is a FA.

[slufanskip]

Skip, baseball's over. You lost to Sawx. Time to move on. I'm pretty sure in St. Lou u guys have multiple Card's boards to post on about your new players.

Did you misunderstand the title of the thread? Getting too old to move that cursor the few extra inches to skip it? We did lose to the Sawx and to be honest, it was hard for me to hate them as I like they way they play.

[cheeseman]

Jhonny Peralta: not a fan of known PED users: I hope he is trade bait as I think if he stops using he won't compete to the last couple of year's levels. I lived in Detroit when Howard Johnson was an average utility ballplayer before going to the Mets and starting and hitting 20 and 30 home runs per year. Some teams have had the guts to keep known users off their playoff and World Series rosters even if that is what got them there.

Who wants a tainted world series victory.

The Thread on UMass vacating their Marcus Camby wins is another example of this type of condoned cheating

His worse season was when he was using whatever he was using - apparently it made him worse so maybe if he does not use then he will be fine. I have no problem with them signing him - the problem is if you sign anybody that has not been caught then that does not mean he is not using - just not caught yet. I am not sure what a team is suppose to do with any free agent. I do think baseball needs to put in stronger penalities such as multiple year suspensions without pay not just 50 games.

[cheeseman]

The Cardinals have lots of money coming off the books and an additional $25 million coming in from national media rights starting this year. Add to that the extra money generated by playoff runs the last few years. The Cardinals have plenty of money right now.

The money Peralta got is what the going rate should be per year for a player like him who doesn't require giving up a draft pick. The only thing that I don't like about the deal is that it is four years and not three. That and it doesn't improve the team defensively.

I beg to differ I think it does improve the team defensively - Peralta is at least as good as Descalso at short has been and yes I know he is not as good as ( sorry the other guy - his name is escaping me now) - but over all the infield defense is better. Carpenter is better at 3rd then Freese and Wong is better then Carpenter at second so the sum of the total is better then the individual added at least that is how I see it. Additionally we are better in center and yes I accept we may not be better in RF defensively so the outfield is probably the same but no worse.

[cheeseman]

Wong does not have much trade sex appeal yet - he may after a year of playing so I do not think he will be traded now. Taveras - his injury last year has made this a tougher map for MO - we do not know if he is ready for the Bigs or not - I think he starts out at Memphis and then comes up at some point assuming he performs well down there. MO is done except for improving the bench unless someone comes in and offers us a stud and asks for very little.

[slufanskip]

Listen, do I think the Cardinals will get Tulo? No...but I do think they should try. It's a myth that Tulowitzski can't stay healthy.

2007- 155 Games/609 ABs

2008- 101 Games/377 ABs (Got Hurt)

2009- 151 Games/543 ABs

2010- 122 Games/470 ABs (Stint on 15-Day DL)

2011- 143 Games/537 ABs

2012- 47 Games/181 ABs (Got Hurt)

2013- 126 Games/446 ABs (Stint on 15-Day DL)

7 Seasons: 3 Full, 3 Partial (over 100 Games), and 1 Injury Riddled. His WAR is off the charts for his position, and he could help us win 2 World Series NOW.

Yes, he's making about $18.5 Million per year (on average) until 2020...that's not TOO much given the expected influx of payroll. Plus, the Rockies already have Tulo's replacement in Trevor Story. I could give a crap about Adams (I think he's the next Chris Duncan). And if we can keep Siegrist and Rosenthal, I'd say the Cardinals should seriously consider it. Miller would be a HUGE loss, but with Wainwright, Lynn, Kelly, Garcia, Martinez, Wacha, Rosenthal (who wants to start), Jenkins, Gast, Lyons, and Gonzalez I think we can field a pretty decent rotation. To me, it would boil down to Miller for Tulo.

It's not a myth that he hasn't stayed healthy. Anyone who believes with any amount of certainty that a player will be healthier in his age 29-35 years than they were in their 22-28 years is just fooling themselves. Of course it's not impossible, but it's pretty damn rare.

I like Tulo. He's the best in the game, but like I said I'd have to seriously think about paying him as a free agent what he's due with his injury history which isn't a myth, it's fact. It's a fact he's averaged less than 110 in his last 4 years. There are also very few people that believe he'll play more than 4 or 5 more at SS.

No guarantee on Adams but I'd suggest you never looked at the swing of either. And ... Chris Duncan's downfall was injuries. In the field Duncan was big and lumbering with choppy movements. Adams is suprisingly mobile with quick soft hands. He's better defensively imo than Craig at 1b. You probably didn't watch him every day when he was there, if so you'd have been surprised at his play.

Pitching without Miller right now. We have

Wainwright as our 1.

Lynn - pitches like a #2 for stretches then pitches like a guy you want to drop from the rotation for stretches.

Kelly - He averages under 6 innings per start, gives up over a hit an inning. He has a 1.36 whip and K's about 6 per 9. His stuff seems to play better but his whip and low k rate don't lead me to believe in him long term despite his good era

Wacha - I'm a believer but still pretty unproven

Garcia - Coming off injury? I like him if healthy as a #3ish

Martinez - He's a wild card I'm a real believer though

Jenkins - really? Pretty close to calling this a bust. Maybe he gets healthy and figures it out. But my money wouldn't be on it

Gast - Just dropped him from the 40 I believe and coming off injury, he's not in the mix. Maybe down the road

Lyons - I'll pass. Maybe a back of the rotation guy. Maybe

Gonzalez - Can we let him pitch a little before putting him in the rotation

Rosie - he's our closer. Though like you I guess if Motte is back in pre injury form I could see him start and do well

But the reality of it for this year is without Miller - Waino, Wacha, Lynn, Kelly then Garcia or Martinez in the 5th spot That's not bad but

Waino, Miller, Wacha, Lynn, Kelly fills your rotation and leaves Martinez or Garcia to push Lynn or Kelly out. How many starters did we use last year? We aren't as overloaded as it may seem. Plus you wanted to give up a bullpen arm.

Lastly, I like how strong Miller makes our top 3 in the playoffs. Losing him puts Kelly, Lynn, Martinez, or Garcia in that mix

And we got Peralta without having to give up Miller or Adams for over 5 mil less per season plus just 4 years not 7. I don't believe our rotation would have fallen apart had we traded Miller from it. But I love it with Miller in it. We could with a little more experience have the best rotation 1-5 in the game ... all young and cost controlled besides Waino.

[slufanskip]

I wouldn't trade Miller. On the pitcher front I was talking more about Kelly and Lynn.

On Adams you either keep him or Oscar. Not enough spots in the starting line up for both. I think Oscar brings more to the table long term, but would be willing to part with either in the right deal.

I'd give up Adams for Profar and possibly OT, but really don't have the inside info to say I would for sure. My eye test tells me we'd be giving up a future .300/25/100/15 guy in OT, what I'm not sure on is Profar, but to have SS cemented for the next 6 years and longer if we extend him with a very good defensive and a guy who should hit .280/15/75/30 from the SS position is huge. As we see with Peralta SS's aren't cheap and we'd be giving up alot of bat but I guess I'd lean to having the premium position filled and make the trade if I spent more time studying Profar and believed he was going to be that guy

[Cowboy]

I'd give up Adams for Profar and possibly OT, but really don't have the inside info to say I would for sure. My eye test tells me we'd be giving up a future .300/25/100/15 guy in OT, what I'm not sure on is Profar, but to have SS cemented for the next 6 years and longer if we extend him with a very good defensive and a guy who should hit .280/15/75/30 from the SS position is huge. As we see with Peralta SS's aren't cheap and we'd be giving up alot of bat but I guess I'd lean to having the premium position filled and make the trade if I spent more time studying Profar and believed he was going to be that guy

-it is a fantasy but I would love to know what 29 other gm's would give Mo in exchange for OT just to see how they value him

[MB73]

We are a better team, speed and "D" in CF, plus a great OF prospect (24th overall pick), and yes Peralta makes us better at SS. And we kept our team intact, Freese and Salas were not long term solutions. We are now very, very deep at every position, the only players that cannot be replaced are Molina and to a lesser extent, Wainwright.

But I do not like the Peralta move, 4 years and $ 53M is too much, he is a known PED felon... his range is already limited and we have him for ages 32-36. He played left field in the playoffs... what does that tell you? He also disrupts the clubhouse pecking order, him bringing in $ 13+M a year, a lifetime .268 hitter in the American League.

Back to the PED thing, sure, a lot of the MLB players are using HGH, I would wager > 66%, Peralta just got caught in the Biogenesis mistake (MLB does not want to catch these guys but they could not ignore the publicized Biogenesis blow up). With Peralta being so obnoxiously obvious, The Cardinals hurt their image, the values they stand for, by brining in Peralta. It matters. I'd have gambled on getting Drew or just get a one year free agent plug if that didn't work. I would not want to go forward with .220 hitters like Kosma and Descalzo but a one year plug free agent would be better than investing $ 53M on Peralta. IMO.

[slufanskip]

We are a better team, speed and "D" in CF, plus a great OF prospect (24th overall pick), and yes Peralta makes us better at SS. And we kept our team intact, Freese and Salas were not long term solutions. We are now very, very deep at every position, the only players that cannot be replaced are Molina and to a lesser extent, Wainwright.

But I do not like the Peralta move, 4 years and $ 53M is too much, he is a known PED felon... his range is already limited and we have him for ages 32-36. He played left field in the playoffs... what does that tell you? He also disrupts the clubhouse pecking order, him bringing in $ 13+M a year, a lifetime .268 hitter in the American League.

Back to the PED thing, sure, a lot of the MLB players are using HGH, I would wager > 66%, Peralta just got caught in the Biogenesis mistake (MLB does not want to catch these guys but they could not ignore the publicized Biogenesis blow up). With Peralta being so obnoxiously obvious, The Cardinals hurt their image, the values they stand for, by brining in Peralta. It matters. I'd have gambled on getting Drew or just get a one year free agent plug if that didn't work. I would not want to go forward with .220 hitters like Kosma and Descalzo but a one year plug free agent would be better than investing $ 53M on Peralta. IMO.

Who is the one year plug?

What pecking order? We have Waino, Molina, and Holliday as established vets who all make more money than JP.

Drew bats left and waiting for him could have left us with Koz again.

But I think most agree we overpaid, but that's the market.

Their image? Franklin, Big Mac, TLR, Freese and DUI's?

[NextYearBill]

I've heard some good Freese tid bits. I might call dibs on making his 30 for 30 documentary. It might have a Chris Herren theme to it

[For-DaLove]

I've heard some good Freese tid bits. I might call dibs on making his 30 for 30 documentary. It might have a Chris Herren theme to it

Ha! Isn't that stuff about Freese pretty well known? Him and Josh Hamilton could have quite the time together in LA

[NextYearBill]

A reliable source told me Freese was attempting to buy drugs DURING the world series from an undercover sting operation. The officer told him, "I know who you are, you better get the hell out of here"

[cheeseman]

I would think it would be best not to spread rumors or supposedly reliable sources info about someone that you have no evidence that they are drug or alcohol abusers. I am sure many of you who are saying these things have been known to bend an elbow once in awhile. I have thought Freese was going to be traded the last two years so this is not a surprise to be but my interest in trading him was due to his quality of play not unfounded rumors.

[For-DaLove]

I would think it would be best not to spread rumors or supposedly reliable sources info about someone that you have no evidence that they are drug or alcohol abusers. I am sure many of you who are saying these things have been known to bend an elbow once in awhile. I have thought Freese was going to be traded the last two years so this is not a surprise to be but my interest in trading him was due to his quality of play not unfounded rumors.

These things are very well known. Not trying to spread rumors

[MB73]

Peralta is a documented PED user who just was

Who is the one year plug?

What pecking order? We have Waino, Molina, and Holliday as established vets who all make more money than JP.

Drew bats left and waiting for him could have left us with Koz again.

But I think most agree we overpaid, but that's the market.

Their image? Franklin, Big Mac, TLR, Freese and DUI's?

We could have won the World Series with Kozma / Descalso, both true "plus" fielders, if 1) Craig wasn't banged up, and / or if 2) we got timely hits that we had all year but not in the Series but Sox DID, and / or 3) if Lester hadn't cheated his ass off and loaded the ball with green gunk.

So I'd rather stick with Kozma / Descalso or wait for someone to come along between now and April for a one year plug or small trade* than pay goddam Peralta $ 53+M for 4 years:

• SS is the most important defensive position in baseball, bar none; his defensive skills are questionable, especially his range, and he is aging.
• He is a very big man (6'2" 215 they say) for a SS, already has declining range, we are getting him at age 32-36 (OLD for a SS), his range will almost certainly decline further; hell, he played left field in the playoffs this year. Try to think of larger SS's who's range declined with age. Plenty of them. Little SS's maintain their range more often with age than big guys. Either way, he is getting old for a SS.
• Yes there is a pecking order beyond the 3 guys you mentioned, Peralta getting $ 13M is, what, sometimes 10+ times more than a lot of our position player starters and key pitchers... Waino, Molina, and Holliday clearly deserve big bucks, you say Peralta is in their category? .268 with limited range, aging for a SS? Tell me.
• He is only a .268 lifetime hitter in the AL, a much easier environment with a DH in the lineup.
• He is a known PED felon: documented nationally, no denying it, no where to hide, that matters as opposed to rumors or rumblings, and as a shortstop he will be in the middle of OUR field, THE ST. LOUIS CARDINALS, for 4 years... our culture, our values are clearly compromised, we are rewarding a cheater. A $ 53+M SS is different from a batting coach who last played 12 years ago, far different than rumors, unsubstantiated heresay, tittle-tattle. As to issues about Freese, that's pathetic to bring him up, why drag him in the mud, and argument wise, he is irrelevant, not a valid comparison, not apples to apples, he did not cheat baseball, his rumors are mostly RE: booze (who hasn't gotten loaded amongst us?) which is different than cheating with PED's to win professional baseball games and cheat fans and steal salary money.
• The $ 13+M a year will affect us in the long run when some of our younger players are eligible for arbitration or are eligible for free agency, we'll have old fat ass Peralta at age 35 & 36 getting $ 13+M playing some 3B here and there and we will need the money to spend elsewhere. Similar to Pujols... though not as impactful, Pujols wanted to con us out of $ 25M a year... remember I took the position that we should let his big butt go so we could spend money on productive players, a plug or two, re-sign some good ones?

*I like Adams but with our surplus of current and high potential minor league outfielders, do we want Craig in RF for the next 5 years? IMO he needs to play 1st base.

[slubillikens43]

A reliable source told me Freese was attempting to buy drugs DURING the world series from an undercover sting operation. The officer told him, "I know who you are, you better get the hell out of here"

This year's world series or 2011?