OT - Are Mike Matheny and Mitchell Boggs

[JettFlight5]

Then it was the right move...any play for Duff is always the best play we can make.

Just because Brett Jolly isn't here. Because then it would be obvious.

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

The Cardinals suck anyway. Who cares.

[RiseAndGrind]

matheny isnt a manager. he has inherited a good team with a great starting staff and is winning in spite of his ignorance. remember this is a guy that couldnt balance his personal financial life when he had millions in the bank. the question is why he was ever picked to be the cardinal manager.

Woah there. Talk about making irrational conclusions.

[jbizzle09]

And it would seem that Mujica could have pitched. While he had made three straight appearances going into last night's game, he's been so efficient that his pitch count has been very low. I believe he made six pitches the night before.

It was actually 4 straight appearances. However, you are correct in that he has been super efficient in those appearances. His pitch counts were 15, 14, 10 and 6. So, he threw 45 pitches over 4 days. Not exactly a super heavy workload for that span. Also, Rosenthal pitched the 26th and threw 26 pitches, did not pitch the 27th, threw 16 pitches on the 28th and didn't pitch the 29th. So, he had 42 pitches over a 4 day span.

Matheny said about Rosenthal that he had warmed up in the bullpen during the games he didn't pitch, so he felt he was taxed and needed a day off. Again, why is he making the decision that his two best relievers need to have a pre-determined day off on the same day? Can't you rest one last night and the other today?

I know that we probably shouldn't be so hard on Matheny because the Cards have the best record in the NL. However, the season doesn't end this weekend. Last night was a game that should have been won that was lost due to his decision making. It can be stated that previous games this season were lost due to similar decisions. Those wins can't be recovered, and might end up biting the Cards in the a$$ in September, especially if the Reds and Pirates continue to play well. Hopefully it won't, and this will be quickly forgotten, but it was highly irritating watching it last night.

[Littlebill]

Woah there. Talk about making irrational conclusions.

+1

[MB73]

Whoa. Many here do not know anything about baseball, either.

Mujica and Rosenthal were not available last night. That is the way it works. Pitchers. We are talking about world class thoroughbred major league pitchers here. Their elbows, their shoulders... not some soccer player running in circles. Maybe another pitcher or two in the pen were not 100%, either. We do not know.

Sure I was concerned, a bit aghast when Boggs came in, a 2-1 game.

But Boggs had 34 holds last year, 2.21 ERA, a 5 year veteran. (8th inning holds are very equivalent to 9th inning saves... closers are overrated).

Matheny was put into a position that he had to use him, he could not give up on Boggs, at that point, yet.

I agree, last night might be the last straw.

Matheny is an excellent manager, extremely knowledgeable, organized, able to assess talent, and very importantly, born to lead. He will do well for a decade or two.

Boggs last night: Matheny had to do it... he might have blown them away, regained his confidence, and become a huge asset again.

So "that is that"... I would guess that Boggs will be relegated to mop up duty until something changes, but last night happened, and I understand.

So lets not stoop to name calling.

[Westy03]

Whoa. Many here do not know anything about baseball, either.

Mujica and Rosenthal were not available last night. That is the way it works. Pitchers. We are talking about world class thoroughbred major league pitchers here. Their elbows, their shoulders... not some soccer player running in circles. Maybe another pitcher or two in the pen were not 100%, either. We do not know.

Sure I was concerned, a bit aghast when Boggs came in, a 2-1 game.

But Boggs had 34 holds last year, 2.21 ERA, a 5 year veteran. (8th inning holds are very equivalent to 9th inning saves... closers are overrated).

Matheny was put into a position that he had to use him, he could not give up on Boggs, at that point, yet.

I agree, last night might be the last straw.

Matheny is an excellent manager, extremely knowledgeable, organized, able to assess talent, and very importantly, born to lead. He will do well for a decade or two.

Boggs last night: Matheny had to do it... he might have blown them away, regained his confidence, and become a huge asset again.

So "that is that"... I would guess that Boggs will be relegated to mop up duty until something changes, but last night happened, and I understand.

So lets not stoop to name calling.

He did not have to use Boggs last night. Kelly, Maness, and even Marte would of been better options. I think my 5 month old could mange this team to a winning record with the lineup and pitching staff the cardinals have

[MB73]

He did not have to use Boggs last night. Kelly, Maness, and even Marte would of been better options. I think my 5 month old could mange this team to a winning record with the lineup and pitching staff the cardinals have

Sure, that is the debate.

I like Kelly a lot after last year, but his last two outings this year he got pounded, his ERA was > 7 before last night. Never closed (IMO that is not such a factor but many think so... the pressure, etc... IMO a major league pitcher in the 7th is the same as a major league pitcher in the 9th... look at Mujica).

Marte? Nope.

Maness has some promise, maybe keeping him in would have been the safe move. But he's never closed, same as Kelly.

Boggs has.

It was a calculated risk, if Boggs had mowed them down, got his confidence back, then it would have been a multiple positive outcome.

It didn't happen.

Matheny supported his player. Boggs is still young and healthy, not like Izzy and Franklin.

But I agree, Boggs absolutely cannot be trusted in that kind of spot again. Mop up, see if he can get into a rhythm and gain his confidence again. But not with the game on the line.

[slufanskip]

So this was the straw that broke the camels back? The 10+ era and half a dozen failures to close this year in addition to the 5+ era and 5 walks in 5 innings in AAA weren't. If last night was ok, how come one more isn't. The argument against the next time isn't really going to be any difference than the argument this time except an 11+ era rather than a 10+ and 1 extra failure. Btw ... Joe Kelly was a college closer I believe. Not that he was the right option last night. He shouldn't have had is 8th and 9th inning guys both not available. Did he not think about who'd close a 1 or 2 run game in advance? He did, and he decided he was using Boggs. I believe Rosenthal or Mujica could have been used except for Matheny's desire to "right" Boggs. Before the game Matheny said Mujica was available.

I appreciate Matheny's loyalty to his players, but this was a bad decision and I do not for a minute believe it was his only option. I believe it was the option he wanted

[Westy03]

Sure, that is the debate.

I like Kelly a lot after last year, but his last two outings this year he got pounded, his ERA was > 7 before last night. Never closed (IMO that is not such a factor but many think so... the pressure, etc... IMO a major league pitcher in the 7th is the same as a major league pitcher in the 9th... look at Mujica).

Marte? Nope.

Maness has some promise, maybe keeping him in would have been the safe move. But he's never closed, same as Kelly.

Boggs has.

It was a calculated risk, if Boggs had mowed them down, got his confidence back, then it would have been a multiple positive outcome.

It didn't happen.

Matheny supported his player. Boggs is still young and healthy, not like Izzy and Franklin.

But I agree, Boggs absolutely cannot be trusted in that kind of spot again. Mop up, see if he can get into a rhythm and gain his confidence again. But not with the game on the line.

The only thing Boggs has proven is that he is atrocious in the 9th inning, look up his ERA this year and get back to me

[slufanskip]

The only thing Boggs has proven is that he is atrocious in the 9th inning, look up his ERA this year and get back to me

I like the he's closed before argument. His success percentage with the game on the line is attrocious. The fact he's done it before is why you know the odds againt success are so slim.

[billiken_roy]

mb your knowledge of baseball is astounding to me. i ask only you bookmark your own posts for this subject so when boggs is pitching in the mexican league in September you can go back and see how wrong wrong wrong you were on all counts. btw, ask around about matheny's previous managing record, i believe he never had a winning record coaching his son's "select" teams. i.e. he couldnt out coach a bunch of dads.

[Box and Won]

Semi-related: what a disaster Marte is. He apparently has not improved one iota since the last time he was on the Cards' roster. I'm a little surprised we kept him over Dirty Sanchez, who is now with the Cubs.

[RiseAndGrind]

mb your knowledge of baseball is astounding to me. i ask only you bookmark your own posts for this subject so when boggs is pitching in the mexican league in September you can go back and see how wrong wrong wrong you were on all counts. btw, ask around about matheny's previous managing record, i believe he never had a winning record coaching his son's "select" teams. i.e. he couldnt out coach a bunch of dads.

LOL. You go from citing his financial struggles as proof that he can't manage to "hearing" that his high school team didn't have a winning record. Geeze, the guy messed up with Boggs. Definitely a screw up. However, he lead the team to within one game of the World Series last year. His team currently has the best record in baseball while playing in arguably the hardest division in baseball. Give me a break. The team wins and it's because of great players. The team loses and Matheny is a loser. Tough gig.

[MB73]

Wow broy hates Matheny, kinda like Majerus. Did Matheny treat someone in So Illinois rudely? bizzleboy... look into it.

Matheny went partners with the wrong guy, lost his ass in real estate, some Chesterfield Valley commercial space, therefore he cannot manage baseball.

By that logic, let's hire Donald Trump.

Some do not get it that Matheny gave Boggs another chance, hoping he would revert to form. The other options were few. Kelly got pounded his last 2 outings. Maness, ok, but still unproven, so-so stuff. Marte-no-way.

Why not give Boggs a shot and see if he can get back on track?

Matheny, our pitching coach, bullpen coaches, Molina, Mo, everyone discusses and confers on these matters, how Bogg's "stuff" has been looking, his attitude, confidence, etc, for days, before, during, and after the game. Unfortunately, Boggs did a Dwayne Bobick.

(I know a kid, going nowhere, but coach believed in him... then he hit TWO home runs in one baseball game. After that, he flourished, now has a great family and is a successful executive with a major firm.)

[jbizzle09]

Semi-related: what a disaster Marte is. He apparently has not improved one iota since the last time he was on the Cards' roster. I'm a little surprised we kept him over Dirty Sanchez, who is now with the Cubs.

That one shocked me, too. I know Sanchez had a rough go of it at the end of last year with Memphis after being sent back down, but he is still only 24 and his stuff is much more electric than Marte's. Also, he has had at least a little bit of success at the major league level (in 2011.) It would seem like there is more potential with Sanchez than Marte. Just a bit of a head scratcher.

[jbizzle09]

Wow broy hates Matheny, kinda like Majerus. Did Matheny treat someone in So Illinois rudely? Bizzleboy... look into it!

Matheny went partners with the wrong guy, lost his ass in real estate, some Chesterfield Valley commercial space, therefore he cannot manage baseball.

By that logic, let's hire Donald Trump.

Some do not get it that Matheny gave Boggs another chance, hoping he would revert to form. The other options were few. Why not give Boggs a shot and see if he can get back on track?

Matheny, our pitching coach, bullpen coaches, Molina, Mo, everyone discusses these matters, how Bogg's "stuff" has been looking for days, his attitude, etc, before, during, and after the game. Unfortunately, Boggs did a Dwayne Bobick.

(I know a kid, going nowhere, but coach believed in him... then he hit TWO home runs in one baseball game. After that, he flourished, now has a great family and is a successful executive with a major firm.)

Really, MB isn't really saying anything crazy in this thread. It seems to me that he is presenting what Matheny's train of thought was (...see if Boggs can do it in the 9th...the 'We believe in you!' theory.) The one thing I will disagree with him (and just a little bit here) is that a pitcher is the same in the 7th as he is in the 9th. While I think theoretically that is true, I think it has been shown time and time again that some pitchers just can't handle the pressure of closing and have the same statistical output that they did when they were pitching in middle relief. Boggs seems to be a perfect case, as he was also unable to handle the job for the short time he had it in 2011, and this season has been disastrous. However, in 2012, he was really, really good as the primary setup guy. Obviously, the pressure of the situation has affected him, proving he is not the same pitcher as he was when in less pressure-driven situations, spotlight inducing situations.

Mainly, I think it is pretty fair to give Matheny some criticism for this move, and he should expect it, as a major league manager. Meanwhile, just like last season, he will be judged by the overall success of the team this season. Hopefully, this will not have a significant impact on this season, and will not prove to be a part of a noticeable pattern. But if we see similar situations occur weeks and months from now, this will be something that will be brought up once again, by both media and the fans.

[MB73]

On the air at 2:50pm today, successful experienced former professional pitchers Ricky Horton and Al Hrabosky both agreed with MB73's position on this matter. It was a good move, albeit a risk, to bring in Boggs at the time the decision was made.

I haven't played golf with Al in awhile, but I see Ricky every week or so... I will thank them both.

[Westy03]

On the air at 2:50pm today, successful experienced former professional pitchers Ricky Horton and Al Hrabosky both agreed with MB73's position on this matter. It was a good move, albeit a risk, to bring in Boggs at the time the decision was made.

I haven't played golf with Al in awhile, but I see Ricky every week or so... I will thank them both.

Yeah they are very objective

[jbizzle09]

On the air at 2:50pm today, successful experienced former professional pitchers Ricky Horton and Al Hrabosky both agreed with MB73's position on this matter. It was a good move, albeit a risk, to bring in Boggs at the time the decision was made.

I haven't played golf with Al in awhile, but I see Ricky every week or so... I will thank them both.

I also watched the entire early game (as well as the late game), and while they did somewhat say that, they also were somewhat critical of Matheny. Their main point of contention was that Matheny put himself in that position by stating that Mujica and Rosenthal were unavailable for that game. Al's point of view was that you can't go into a game with both your 8th and 9th inning guys being given the day off. Also, while watching Thursday night's game, I noticed that Al was quite critical of the fact that Mujica was apparently 'unavailable' that night. He stated, during the broadcast, that closers should always be ready as that is what they do. Of course, as a point of reference, he pointed to his own career.

I have not been critical of what you have said in this thread (other than my slight objection to your equation of 7th inning pitching stats to the 9th inning.) However, you really should not pat yourself on the back here, as you are just taking a piece of what Rick and Al said and acting as if they are in complete agreement with you. And, even if they were in complete agreement with what you stated, these are guys who toe the company line. Hell, I've listened to Al give a reason why every Cardinal position player deserved a Gold Glove during pretty much every broadcast he's ever made. I swear I have heard him state that Skip Schumaker, Matt Holiday, Lance Berkman and Ryan Ludwick deserve Gold Gloves during broadcasts. That is what he does...he blindly supports the Cards, as does Rick Horton. They make the unpalatable palatable.

[MB73]

I also watched the entire early game (as well as the late game), and while they did somewhat say that, they also were somewhat critical of Matheny. Their main point of contention was that Matheny put himself in that position by stating that Mujica and Rosenthal were unavailable for that game. Al's point of view was that you can't go into a game with both your 8th and 9th inning guys being given the day off. Also, while watching Thursday night's game, I noticed that Al was quite critical of the fact that Mujica was apparently 'unavailable' that night. He stated, during the broadcast, that closers should always be ready as that is what they do. Of course, as a point of reference, he pointed to his own career.

I have not been critical of what you have said in this thread (other than my slight objection to your equation of 7th inning pitching stats to the 9th inning.) However, you really should not pat yourself on the back here, as you are just taking a piece of what Rick and Al said and acting as if they are in complete agreement with you. And, even if they were in complete agreement with what you stated, these are guys who toe the company line. Hell, I've listened to Al give a reason why every Cardinal position player deserved a Gold Glove during pretty much every broadcast he's ever made. I swear I have heard him state that Skip Schumaker, Matt Holiday, Lance Berkman and Ryan Ludwick deserve Gold Gloves during broadcasts. That is what he does...he blindly supports the Cards, as does Rick Horton. They make the unpalatable palatable.

No, they do not blindly support the Cardinals. Yes, they generally support the overall Cardinal agenda, keep things positive, but they both have presented dissenting opinions, I have heard them both on numerous occasions over the years. Whoa, Al blasting Molina for jogging to first base a few years ago, that went on and on for weeks.

I am just pointing out for those that do not really know the game that 1) the options were few, I like him but Kelly had been hammered the last 2, no-way-Marte, and Maness is still a question mark (though hindsight says he should have pitched) and 2) in the majors, the bullpen catchers, bullpen coach, pitching coach, Molina, and even Mo had all conferred with Matheny on Boggs's status (mechanics, attitude, etc) and had almost certainly decided it was time to give Boggs another chance at some point, even though risky.

Boggs failed.

He will probably not get any kind of meaningful work in a critical situation for quite some time, if at all. Perhaps a change in scenery, as Al and Ricky said... the kiss of death, he might be gone forever.

I think Boggs will bounce back someday and be productive again, maybe somewhere else, and probably not like his league leading 34 holds last year with a 2.21, but be moderately successful. He obviously has issues of some sort, many thought after last year's performance they were behind him.

It was a calculated risk. HUGE upside. Boggs CAN do it, he has done it, but something is clearly wrong, we all know it.

But do not question or ridicule Matheny for this, this is how it is done, 162 game schedule, sure it was Matheny's final decision for that game but 1) others contributed and probably decided that Boggs should get a shot at some point soon, and 2) it WAS the right baseball move... to see where Boggs was... his final audition, so the organization knows what we have or do not have... now we know.

(and I say most closers are overrated other than the rare superstars, and if you take a good hard nosed effective 7th or 8th inning guy like Mujica most will do fine in the 9th... these are goddam major leaguers... the 9th inning does not scare them more than the 8th for 99% of them)

[Westy03]

No, they do not blindly support the Cardinals. Yes, they generally support the overall Cardinal agenda, keep things positive, but they both have presented dissenting opinions, I have heard them both on numerous occasions over the years. Whoa, Al blasting Molina for jogging to first base a few years ago, that went on and on for weeks.

I am just pointing out for those that do not really know the game that 1) the options were few, I like him but Kelly had been hammered the last 2, no-way-Marte, and Maness is still a question mark (though hindsight says he should have pitched) and 2) in the majors, the bullpen catchers, bullpen coach, pitching coach, Molina, and even Mo have all conferred with Matheny on Boggs's status (mechanics, attitude, etc) and had almost certainly decided it was time to give Boggs another chance at some point, even though risky.

He failed.

He will probably not get any kind of meaningful work in a critical situation for quite some time, if at all. Perhaps a change in scenery, as Al and Ricky said... the kiss of death, he might be gone forever.

I think Boggs will bounce back someday and be productive again, maybe somewhere else, and probably not like his league leading 34 holds last year with a 2.21, but be moderately successful. He obviously has issues of some sort, many thought after last year's performance they were behind him.

It was a calculated risk. HUGE upside. Boggs CAN do it, he has done it, but something is clearly wrong, we all know it.

But do not question or ridicule Matheny for this, this is how it is done, 162 game schedule, sure it was Matheny's final decision for that game but 1) others contributed and probably decided that Boggs should get a shot at some point soon, and 2) it WAS the right baseball move... to see where Boggs was... his final audition, so the organization knows what we have or do not have... now we know.

I'm sorry but if Mo and Matheny thought that Boggs deserved another chance in a high leverage situation after his dreadful performance in the minors then I want the stuff they are smoking. I'm not arguing using Boggs but to put him in a 2-1 game after a 21 year old kid pitched his butt off is beyond stupid.

[MB73]

I'm sorry but if Mo and Matheny thought that Boggs deserved another chance in a high leverage situation after his dreadful performance in the minors then I want the stuff they are smoking. I'm not arguing using Boggs but to put him in a 2-1 game after a 21 year old kid pitched his butt off is beyond stupid.

We have the best record in baseball, now you question their decision.

They knew the risk / reward.

And it isn't just Mo and Matheny: Molina, the bullpen coach, bullpen catchers, and of course Lindquist all provided feedback. Boggs might have a small tweak in his arm and then he told everyone it was loose and ready to go. Or his attitude might have seemed better.

A lot of this happens with pitchers. Some are more delicate mentally and physically. Matheny-Mo et al know, not all of this gets to the fans. Who knows?

(The buck stops with Matheny on this, though, I am not saying he didn't know anything about it or that he just heard about it from the press like all of us or that that he did not read what he signed.)

I agree it is time to move on with Boggs, he should not be in our plans for a long time, if at all. But the decision to go with him was a baseball decision, OK.

[Westy03]

We have the best record in baseball, now you question their decision.

They knew the risk / reward.

And it isn't just Mo and Matheny: Molina, the bullpen coach, bullpen catchers, and of course Lindquist all provided feedback. Boggs might have a small tweak in his arm and then he told everyone it was loose and ready to go. Or his attitude might have seemed better.

A lot of this happens with pitchers. Some are more delicate mentally and physically. Matheny-Mo et al know, not all of this gets to the fans. Who knows?

(The buck stops with Matheny on this, though, I am not saying he didn't know anything about it or that he just heard about it from the press like all of us or that that he did not read what he signed.)

I agree it is time to move on with Boggs, he should not be in our plans for a long time, if at all. But the decision to go with him was a baseball decision, OK.

Overall Matheny has done a very good job but it was a complete brain fart when he put Boggs in. Oh we'll. they will try and trade Boggs later in June into July and hopefully get a reliable backup SS.

[BillikenLaw]

I don't think "brain fart" is the right term. When people say "brain fart" it usually means their minds stopped working for a second, they forgot something, etc. I think it's pretty naive to think that Matheny didn't think very hard about the decision to use Boggs. It's just that it backfired. And now Boggs is gone for awhile, so nothing to worry about.

MB has been pretty much spot-on throughout this thread.

Let's move on.