Kwamain- Where does he stand?

[Jaybird]

Neither Lisch or Mitchell would make my top ten players.

Top Ten from 1985 to present

1. Anthony Bonner

2. Erwin Claggett

3. Roland Gray

4. Monroe Douglass

5. Scott Highmark

6. Kevin Lisch

7. Tommie Liddell

8. Marque Perry

9. Kwamain Mitchell

10. Dwayne Evans

[almaman]

Top Ten from 1985 to present

1. Anthony Bonner

2. Erwin Claggett

3. Roland Gray

4. Monroe Douglass

5. Scott Highmark

6. Kevin Lisch

7. Tommie Liddell

8. Marque Perry

9. Kwamain Mitchell

10. Dwayne Evans

I'm guessin' you are only counting 4 year guys, or you are a Larry hater?

[jimbofive]

Top Ten from 1985 to present

1. Anthony Bonner

2. Erwin Claggett

3. Roland Gray

4. Monroe Douglass

5. Scott Highmark

6. Kevin Lisch

7. Tommie Liddell

8. Marque Perry

9. Kwamain Mitchell

10. Dwayne Evans

You're high, SHAFT is better than Liddell by a mile, though I still don't know if he belongs on this list JUST yet. If you have all the talent in the world and squander it, you don't belong. Len Bias isn't on anyone's top 10 Celtics lists is he? Get your gotdamn degree, Tommie. Then we're cool.

[brianstl]

Top Ten from 1985 to present 1. Anthony Bonner 2. Erwin Claggett 3. Roland Gray 4. Monroe Douglass 5. Scott Highmark 6. Kevin Lisch 7. Tommie Liddell 8. Marque Perry 9. Kwamain Mitchell10. Dwayne Evans

Mine in no paticular order

Bonner, Burden, Gray, Clagget, Hughes, H, Ian, Perry, Evans, Love.

[billiken_roy]

hughes and love belong on the list. if you want to penalize hughes a couple of spots for being a lottery pick i guess i wouldnt fight that, but he was the greatest talent we have ever seen in a billiken uniform. love has to get points for his fabulous senior season.

[NH]

A-10 ALL-DEFENSIVE

Kevin Lisch 2006-07

Kevin Lisch 2007-08

I'm aware. Take that as gospel if you will. I saw the guys play far more than the coaches who voted. Though obviously they know far more.

[NH]

You're high, SHAFT is better than Liddell by a mile, though I still don't know if he belongs on this list JUST yet. If you have all the talent in the world and squander it, you don't belong. Len Bias isn't on anyone's top 10 Celtics lists is he? Get your gotdamn degree, Tommie. Then we're cool.

I'd love to dispute this with you Jimbo. Not the Evans-Liddell debate but the part about him wasting talent.

[jimbofive]

I'd love to dispute this with you Jimbo. Not the Evans-Liddell debate but the part about him wasting talent.

you're saying he gave it his all on the court and in the classroom? can take to PMs if need be. i loved tommie, but he could have been even better. i know his style was smooth and unaffected, so he was likely playing harder than it looked like he was, but his not finishing school is a pretty big indicator to me of his work ethic. same with willie reed, ruben cotto, etc.

[thetorch]

Liddell was a system player. He excelled in Soderberg's system, not Majerus' which was much more disciplined.

As much as Lisch has been overrated since his career was over, Liddell has been underrated. He peaked early certainly. I don't know if he quit playing hard, was hurt more than let on, or just stopped improving. His freshman and sophomore years are among the 5 best among Billiken players all time. Top 10 in scoring, rebounds, assists, blocks his freshman year. Top ten in scoring, rebounds, 3 pt shooting, blocks his sophomore year. No one has done that ever. Liddell was still a good player his last 2 seasons, just not extraordinary. Those first two years he rivals anyone to ever play in a SLU uniform as an all around threat.

[Clock_Tower]

Liddell was a system player. He excelled in Soderberg's system, not Majerus' which was much more disciplined.

As much as Lisch has been overrated since his career was over, Liddell has been underrated. He peaked early certainly. I don't know if he quit playing hard, was hurt more than let on, or just stopped improving. His freshman and sophomore years are among the 5 best among Billiken players all time. Top 10 in scoring, rebounds, assists, blocks his freshman year. Top ten in scoring, rebounds, 3 pt shooting, blocks his sophomore year. No one has done that ever. Liddell was still a good player his last 2 seasons, just not extraordinary. Those first two years he rivals anyone to ever play in a SLU uniform as an all around threat.

IMO, TLIII was a true athletic talent but he was individually talented. Brad wanted and needed the talents of both TL and KL. Brad changes his coaching to his newfound talent, modified his offensive/defensive schemes and ran his offense to suit them. Specifically, Brad allowed the offense to take more risk (be less concerned about his "points per possession") and increase the tempo. It was as if Brad knew that he would lose TL if Brad did not accomodate him. At the time, I was reminded of Grawer who got into real trouble when he promised guys starting positions (Winfield could play PG even though his ball handling wasn't there to increase his chances of making the NBA). Then, along came RM who was not interested in individual talents, who had coached players with more talent than TL and who frankly didn't care if TL stayed or not. Instead of having double/different standards for his star players, RM was actually tougher on his stars. Just look at our team this year and last. Some guys better than others but no real stars.

Absolutely agree that if Brad had stayed two (2) more years, the surrounding cast would have gotten weaker and weaker, our team would have won less games with the weaker surrounding talent but TL and KL would have had much better stats than they did.

[ACE]

I really liked Marque and what he did the last month of his senior season was awesome, but KM had a better overall career. The Lisch v. Mitchell debate is interesting, but KM gets the nod. KM and KL played on the same team for one year, so they had the same supporting cast for that period. During that one season, I thought KM had already become one of the top two players on the team with Kevin. KM hit the game-winner in the A-10 tournament and hit numerous huge shots throughout the rest of his career. One thing that separates KM from KL is that Mitchell led his team to the CBI finals the year AFTER KL & TL graduated. That particular team was the youngest in America and didn't have Cody join up until second semester. That team was a borderline NIT team and if Cody were there from the beginning would have at least been an NIT lock and possibly an NCAA bubble team. That was a hell of an accomplishment for KM to be the leader of that team. As the surroudning cast got better, I thought KM did a great job of fitting in. His career numbers were less precisely because he had a better supporting cast. He became more of a distributor. While not the pure shooter Kevin was, KM had more ways he could score and set up his teammates. KM was great at driving and scoring around the basket for a player his size. He made those around him better and hit a bunch of clutch shots in big games - Memphis and the conference tournament. KM could play the one or two and alternate between the role of scorer and distributor better than KL. No knock on KL, but KM had a better career.

[BillyKen]

that might be the stupidest point i have ever read in regards to who was the better all time billiken. how could either athlete control their surrounding cast? or forgive me, if the real question was about just being on a good team.

in reality, the fact that kevin contributed to winning teams for all four seasons with his much less surrounding cast means a lot. mitchell agreed the four years he actually was on the court also had winning seasons, however, he had much better teamates. let's not forget that mitchell was a major contributor in the scenario that could have easily ruined the program and was suspended for a year as a result. in that suspension year, the billikens had one of their worst seasons in history. had he not gotten in trouble, maybe that season is erased.

while many want to give mitchell a complete pass for the situation, i dont think that is right when you look at the overall picture. i commend mitchell for taking responsibility, for serving his punishment and coming back to finish his career.

lisch being from belleville has no bearing on my thoughts on this comparison. i believe my analysis is right period.

Actually, it is quite telling if both players would look at a synopsis of each career and both would choose Kwam's.

Also, you are blowing the difference between the supporting casts way out of proportion. Sure, I agree that Kwam had a stronger supporting cast, but it is not as extreme of a difference as you make it out to be. Kevin had Ian and Tommy. We all know that that team underperformed and was a post season tournament snub.

I also do not think "the situation" should even be a factor. If anything it should be an extra plus on the Kwam side. He did not have to come back. Despite his obvious mistake, the school did screw him over. He easily could have transferred. Rather, he stuck with it, was the only player who was involved to stay and complete his college career as a Billiken.

You say Kwam "could have easily ruined the program." HE DID NOT THOUGH. We made two consecutive tournaments with Kwam at the helm. Sure, a lot of things COULD have happened., but history can only be evaluated based on what actually occurred. While the Situation could contribute to Kwam not being your personal 'favorite' Billiken, it really doesn't diminish his on-court accomplishments.

[ACE]

The more I think about KM's sophomore season, the more impressive it really is. The "better supporting cast" argument can not be used against KM during that season. In addition to being the youngest team in America, think of all the turmoil during that season? Cody not getting cleared by the NCAA until second semester. KM got poked in the eye during the Belmont game and had to miss the next one... when we lost to Mo State. Jeff Reid got drilled early in the year by that Hansbrough thug from ND and it ended his season. Femi, who started several games early in the season, was in and out of the lineup and ultimately had his season cut short due to injury. Conklin got off to a hot start, but then had a severe ankle injury and was never 100% the rest of the season. As for the supporting cast, outside of Willie, it wasn't that great. Freshmen: Salecich, Jordan and Remekun. Sophs: Cassity and Conklin. That was a team with a lot of injuries and inexperience and KM really carried them to the postseason. Clear edge to KM over KL.

[JettFlight5]

Fast forward 1 year with a Billiken Sweet 16 next year:

Dwayne Evans as one of the top Billikens ever?

[Littlebill]

Fast forward 1 year with a Billiken Sweet 16 next year:

Dwayne Evans as one of the top Billikens ever?

After he averages 20 and 10? Most definitely