Barnett vs. Cassity

[ACE]

Considering that Barnett has filled Cassity's minutes, I wanted to take a look at the numbers to see how they stack up. Kyle was more of a 1/2 and Jake more of a 2/3, but JB has been the 4th perimeter player the way Kyle was.

KC: 17.9 mpg; 1.4 rpg 65 assists (season) 3. 3 ppg

JB: 16.5 mpg; 3.1 rpg 22 assists 3.9 ppg

Jake has the edge in points and rebounds in fewer minutes, Kyle has a significant edge in assists.

JB caught a lot of crap early in the year, but I think he has done a fine job filling his role. His defense has gotten a lot better and I see him doing a lot of the "little things" Kyle used to get praised for. I kinda think if Jake were from Washington, Mo. or some small town in Illinois, he'd get more respect. I think Jake has done a solid job. While he is not the gunslinger he was on a crappy Toledo team, he seems to have embraced his role and really enjoyed being a valuable role player on a winning team.

[JettFlight5]

Jake is filling his role very well.

Good for him, he seems like a good kid.

[MusicCityBilliken]

I beginning to have a lot of respect for Jake.

Next year he may move from a more role player to the status of CE,

[Pistol]

This is a good thread. Can't believe I hadn't thought of it in these terms. Thanks for posting.

[billiken_roy]

wasnt it pretty much board contention by the end of last year that cassity was a total loss and a failure? so barnett has similar numbers so now he is a great success?

personally, i loved kyle cassity. i admit he wasnt a scorer and that frustrated me because i believe he had the skills to score more. however by the end of his time at slu, he had justifiably had his minutes taken by increased time for mccall and jett and that was deserved. when compared to barnett, kyle's rebounding numbers would be less because he didnt play forward and barnett primarily does play forward. conversely that would explain why barnett is far behind cassity in assist numbers.

imo they arent really comparable except minutes played, that is where the comparison ends.

[Cowboy]

-I think part, most?, of the crap Jake catches here is people remember that Rick said he would be an all-conf player and that has not happened. He has another year to do it.

-I have been impressed with his rebounding

[Pistol]

wasnt it pretty much board contention by the end of last year that cassity was a total loss and a failure? so barnett has similar numbers so now he is a great success?

personally, i loved kyle cassity. i admit he wasnt a scorer and that frustrated me because i believe he had the skills to score more. however by the end of his time at slu, he had justifiably had his minutes taken by increased time for mccall and jett and that was deserved. when compared to barnett, kyle's rebounding numbers would be less because he didnt play forward and barnett primarily does play forward. conversely that would explain why barnett is far behind cassity in assist numbers.

imo they arent really comparable except minutes played, that is where the comparison ends.

Yeah, Roy. We know.

[Taj79]

Every team needs a Kyle Cassity and a Jake Barnett. Kyle was a key player for 2.5 to 3 years maybe even 3.5 but then started to be passed by by some of the younger, more physically-talented kids mentioned above. And in that passing, Kyle accepted his even more limited role by not being a distraction, as Josh Benson has done over at Dayton. You cannot measure in terms of numbers what that brings to a team, any team, as it moves down the stretch.

The numbers are comparable but the positions played are not. Jake really seems to put his nose into the grindstone when it comes to rebounding and sneaky defense. He was lurking a few times at Richmond as he did with Butler when he made a few key steals and helped fueled that overpowering run. The kid has savvy.

Kyel had savvy too ala Luke Meyer. Kids like these dot our program and it shows how successful the program is in that they are not the bucket carriers of the season but rather role players. For all the Chris Sloans, Drejajs, Iziks, Kenny Browns, Paul Eckerles and the rest, these guys all would have been more successful in more limited roles but because the entire team make up was weak, they had to do more and get put into places they could never be comfortable. As with Cassity, the talent level passed them by but they had to keep on plugging for ol' Saint Louie Ewie to keep our head above water. Barely ....

I'd kill to have some of those guys on this team today. Luke Meyer on this team. Heiney. Barry Eberhardt. Matt Baniak. Ryan Leuchtefeld.

[AMDG]

His rebounding and defense have been great. He seems mentally tough as well. I remember a home game this year where he stole a pass, we up to dunk it and it rimmed out. A couple of minutes later, he got a chance at a three and nailed it. There are some players on our team who wouldn't have been able to forget about the missed dunk and drain the three. I was impressed.

[moytoy12]

wasnt it pretty much board contention by the end of last year that cassity was a total loss and a failure? so barnett has similar numbers so now he is a great success?

I think a lot of the angst had to do with KC being a starter or one of the first 2 off the bench. JB has pretty consistently been the 8th/9th man in the rotation. If KC were the 3rd or 4th guy off the bench, I'm guessing he wouldn't have received as much negativity as he did.

[Pistol]

wasnt it pretty much board contention by the end of last year that cassity was a total loss and a failure? so barnett has similar numbers so now he is a great success?

personally, i loved kyle cassity. i admit he wasnt a scorer and that frustrated me because i believe he had the skills to score more. however by the end of his time at slu, he had justifiably had his minutes taken by increased time for mccall and jett and that was deserved. when compared to barnett, kyle's rebounding numbers would be less because he didnt play forward and barnett primarily does play forward. conversely that would explain why barnett is far behind cassity in assist numbers.

imo they arent really comparable except minutes played, that is where the comparison ends.

But to respond to this, it has everything to do with roles and expectations.

Cassity came into last year as a senior co-captain starter. Barnett came into this year as the 8th man.

Cassity's role decreased throughout the year as his offensive contribution failed to materialize and his defense wasn't up to the level played by the younger guys. Barnett continues to be the 8th man and his production is roughly equivalent to Cassity's last year.

I'm not 100% satisfied with Barnett's production - I'd love to see him take and hit more 3-pointers - but his trendline is where it started the season. Cassity contributed less and less as last season went on, and that was all the more frustrating based on what we wanted and needed out of him. I wish there were a stat for passing up open looks because he might be SLU's all-time leader.

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

I wish there were a stat for passing up open looks because he might be SLU's all-time leader.

+1

[showthebill]

Jake still has another year so hopefully he can continue to get a little better, but I don't think he has much higher of a ceiling.

Also, Cassity had 18 turnovers on the year his senior year (3.44 assist to turnover ratio) whereas Barnett has 18 turnovers already this year.

[billiken_roy]

Yeah, Roy. We know.

yet pistol you pretty much agreed with ace's thinking that a comparison to cassity = barnett a big success. i dont understand. how can you be one of the kyle haters but then a barnett defender?

[ACE]

wasnt it pretty much board contention by the end of last year that cassity was a total loss and a failure? so barnett has similar numbers so now he is a great success?

personally, i loved kyle cassity. i admit he wasnt a scorer and that frustrated me because i believe he had the skills to score more. however by the end of his time at slu, he had justifiably had his minutes taken by increased time for mccall and jett and that was deserved. when compared to barnett, kyle's rebounding numbers would be less because he didnt play forward and barnett primarily does play forward. conversely that would explain why barnett is far behind cassity in assist numbers.

imo they arent really comparable except minutes played, that is where the comparison ends.

I think part of the frustration that some fans had was that Kyle was him getting too many minutes. I think RM could be loyal to a fault and I felt like he should have made the switch to MM a little sooner. I think once Kyle started getting the minutes more in line with his production (meaning less than 20 mpg) I don't think you heard many people complaining. Kyle did fine once RM put him in his proper role. I think if Barnett were getting more than 20 mpg, you would hear more complaining, but he has pretty much been in his proper role all season.

[billiken_roy]

I think part of the frustration that some fans had was that Kyle was him getting too many minutes. I think RM could be loyal to a fault and I felt like he should have made the switch to MM a little sooner. I think once Kyle started getting the minutes more in line with his production (meaning less than 20 mpg) I don't think you heard many people complaining. Kyle did fine once RM put him in his proper role. I think if Barnett were getting more than 20 mpg, you would hear more complaining, but he has pretty much been in his proper role all season.

i.e. there is no comparison. thanks

[Pistol]

yet pistol you pretty much agreed with ace's thinking that a comparison to cassity = barnett a big success. i dont understand. how can you be one of the kyle haters but then a barnett defender?

I'm not sure I qualify as either a Cassity "hater" or Barnett "defender."

My feelings on Barnett are neutral. He started this season at the 8th man and remains the 8th man. I'd be disappointed if he were only getting garbage minutes, and I'd be thrilled if he had worked his way up in the rotation. As it stands, I'm neither.

Cassity was a disappointment for me, but not to the point of hatred. Just frustration. I didn't see as much potential in him as you ever did. He was starting out of necessity. But the fact remains that last year he was a senior, co-captain, and starter, and that he played his way out of the starting lineup - or everyone else played their way into his minutes. He was tentative on offense and routinely burned on defense one-on-one, despite being a solid off-the-ball defender.

To say "there is no comparison" makes no sense. Barnett is a guard who entered the rotation this season, and Cassity was the only guard who left after last season. That begs comparison.

[Pistol]

Another point: look at what we did late last season, as Cassity's minutes dwindled. We kept getting better as he kept moving down the bench.

Another point: Roy, no one else on this board had the love you did for Cassity. He's a Catholic white kid from Southern Illinois. Your favorite Billikens all seem to fit the same profile.

[billiken_roy]

Another point: look at what we did late last season, as Cassity's minutes dwindled. We kept getting better as he kept moving down the bench.

Another point: Roy, no one else on this board had the love you did for Cassity. He's a Catholic white kid from Southern Illinois. Your favorite Billikens all seem to fit the same profile.

my all time favorite billikens are lisch (who granted fits your above discription, however i watched him develop from ymca ball at age 6 through present) followed by hughes, love, bonner and david burns. cassity would be quite far down my list. i defended kyle because the attacks were off base, but he wasnt neccessarily a favorite.

btw, my current favorites are our juniors jett, mccall and evans. they also dont fit your accusation pistol.

[ACE]

I'm not sure I qualify as either a Cassity "hater" or Barnett "defender."

My feelings on Barnett are neutral. He started this season at the 8th man and remains the 8th man. I'd be disappointed if he were only getting garbage minutes, and I'd be thrilled if he had worked his way up in the rotation. As it stands, I'm neither.

Cassity was a disappointment for me, but not to the point of hatred. Just frustration. I didn't see as much potential in him as you ever did. He was starting out of necessity. But the fact remains that last year he was a senior, co-captain, and starter, and that he played his way out of the starting lineup - or everyone else played their way into his minutes. He was tentative on offense and routinely burned on defense one-on-one, despite being a solid off-the-ball defender.

To say "there is no comparison" makes no sense. Barnett is a guard who entered the rotation this season, and Cassity was the only guard who left after last season. That begs comparison.

+1

[SShoe]

btw, my current favorites are our juniors jett, mccall and evans. they also dont fit your accusation pistol.

No, but it tells me you have a prejudice against dudes with blue hair.

[billiken_roy]

honestly, blue hair, tatoos etc typically do influence me. but the fact i have accepted jordair's hair is definitely a step in the right direction.

[Pistol]

my all time favorite billikens are lisch (who granted fits your above discription, however i watched him develop from ymca ball at age 6 through present) followed by hughes, love, bonner and david burns. cassity would be quite far down my list. i defended kyle because the attacks were off base, but he wasnt neccessarily a favorite.

btw, my current favorites are our juniors jett, mccall and evans. they also dont fit your accusation pistol.

Roy, I'm not new to the board. Nor are a lot of other people reading this. You've seen all the Southern Illinois-area kids through rose colored glasses more consistently than anyone else here. I don't think that's an accusation as much as an observation. Your love and defense of those kids is disproportionate to your take on other guys.

[JettFlight5]

They're both kids that filled a specific role on their teams.

I like the Southern Illinois kids as well. That said, both guys are going to be contributors to good teams.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, I'm not new to the board. Nor are a lot of other people reading this. You've seen all the Southern Illinois-area kids through rose colored glasses more consistently than anyone else here. I don't think that's an accusation as much as an observation. Your love and defense of those kids is disproportionate to your take on other guys.

maybe it is more a statement on what i see as a mistreatment of that type of kid by posters on this messageboard. i recall defending the attacks on drew diener the same way. but drew in no way is an all time favorite either. i just didnt think the personal attacks and insinuations were fair.