Looks like Duke!

[kevinfootes]

I know what it means, but I thought it was ridiculous to put out the statement like that's what I was saying and then put a wink behind it to mask the intent of writing it in the first place.

Look, I don't think it's a perfect situation and of course it would be better if we got a return game, but obviously that wasn't on the table. Either was a home and home with other top BCS schools. At some point, if you want to play the best teams, you have to make the best deal you can and see what you got. We could sit around forever waiting with our chest stuck out saying we're SLU and you must give us a home and home. In the meantime we can continue to ***** about our poor strength of schedule.

Here's what I think. I think RM believes in this team and thinks that though an upset isn't likely, it's possible. I think he expects to be in the tourney and also believes that the experience a road game at Duke will bring to this team win or lose will help in the long run.

And in the end, I love the we'll play anyone anytime attitude.

Geez. Calm down.

[cheeseman]

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that the majority of this thread that feels this is a good game is not sound thinking? Cheese you are out numbered on this one,but then again we must not be sound thinking.

First of all, if the being in the majority makes you right then that is a sad affair. It is possible to be right and be in the minority. Second, I never said anybody was not sound thinking just that some - in my opinion - are not thinking sound on this topic. Even brilliant people can make a stupid mistake but not be stupid.

[cheeseman]

Cheese, I'm usually on board with your thinking and do see your point about Duke not returning the favor to SLU. However, at this stage of RM's rebuild this is nothing to sneeze at and a time to get excited. So we likely lose? Hey, they're in the top 5 and defending national champs, who's gonna be shocked? But this is too good for the team, the program, and, hopefully, a well played competitive game gains us some much needed national respect. Just think how excited the team must be after hearing this. I just hope they don't overlook the miserable opponent we might have before going to Durham and blow it. We're getting a shot at Duke. Who doesn't want to play the best? It's like getting a shot at playing Augusta national. You're probably gonna shoot a gazillion but you're not gonna say I'd rather play the muni at Forest Park. And most important, the chance for a monumental upset is staring us right in the face. We need this game for a lot of reasons.

Yes but when you play Augusta your performance will not be available for all to see nor are you trying to build a resume for you making the Pro Tour. This is newsworthy for a day and provides little for us unless we win. I thought people were tired of moral victories but I guess some are not there yet.

[cheeseman]

Ideally, we would be playing a home-and-home with a program like Duke. Unfortunately, based on our play the past 10 years, we're not in a position for those kind of things to happen right now. We're good enough for top teams to be worried about taking a loss to us if they come to St. Louis, but at the same time we haven't been quite good enough for those top teams to not have to worry about a loss to us being labeled as a bad loss come Selection Sunday. If beginning this season we begin to play at an NCAA Tournament caliber level, which I think is more than reasonable, and we maintain that level for a few years, then playing us home-and-home will make more sense from a scheduling standpoint for the so-called top teams.

If going down to Durham is more beneficial for us concerning the RPI or SOS than beating a 250 or 300+ RPI team like Mississippi Valley State, than it will help us eventually reach that level where the top teams like Duke might be willing to play us in a home-and-home setting.

I am not a stats whiz but if what others have said in the past about RPI ratings that a road win against a 150 team will help you more than a road loss to a top team. My point simply has been that we don't get that much out of this game not that it is a terrible thing. The problem with some - I am not singling you out - is that they don't understand gradients of ideas - you are either all in or all out. In this case, there are some positives but there also negatives and in my opinion the positives are not that much better.

[slufanskip]

I am not a stats whiz but if what others have said in the past about RPI ratings that a road win against a 150 team will help you more than a road loss to a top team. My point simply has been that we don't get that much out of this game not that it is a terrible thing. The problem with some - I am not singling you out - is that they don't understand gradients of ideas - you are either all in or all out. In this case, there are some positives but there also negatives and in my opinion the positives are not that much better.

who is saying this is a perfect scenario? or are as you say "all in" I haven't heard anyone say that. You say the positives aren't that much better, are they better at all? If so, I think that's what most are saying ... it's not perfect, but more positives than negatives, so we should play the game. And, since we are playing it, why not be excited about it? Do you think RM thinks we are going to go there and get our butts handed to us? I doubt it. Do you think the players aren't looking forward to this game, believing they can win?

We're probably in agreement, some of us just prefer to focus on the positives and some the negatives.

[cheeseman]

who is saying this is a perfect scenario? or are as you say "all in" I haven't heard anyone say that. You say the positives aren't that much better, are they better at all? If so, I think that's what most are saying ... it's not perfect, but more positives than negatives, so we should play the game. And, since we are playing it, why not be excited about it? Do you think RM thinks we are going to go there and get our butts handed to us? I doubt it. Do you think the players aren't looking forward to this game, believing they can win?

We're probably in agreement, some of us just prefer to focus on the positives and some the negatives.

-1

[billiken_roy]

The duke game obviously replaces siu for one year on the schedule. I would assume next year we are back in carbondale playing the skinny mutts. Slu needed to slot one game for one year. I would guess that would be hard to do with a middling team without doing a two year deal. So either we take another worthless buy game at home or we be the buy game vs an elite program. If that was the scenario I say we hit a home run

[slufanskip]

-1

would you say the positives outweigh the negatives or vice-versa?

[Clock_Tower]

Coming late this thread so I will not repeat. Just put me down in the camp with the majority who think this is a good thing.

Too bad we don't have a head coach who has experience in scheduling and building a no-name program and turning it into a winner!! Oh wait, we do. Have some on this Board not realized that EVERYTHING RM does has a purpose behind it. Right or wrong, no one has put more thought behind the actions of SLU basketball. By actions, I am referring, in part, to his choice to hide from the media and not be interviewed early on, then his decision to start using the national media last year and now, with some good, young horses in the stable, he's on with Bernie talking freely about our match up with National Champion Duke. Again, trust RM. He knows what he's doing.

Cheese. Sometimes a loss is very important and good for a program. First, it's a measuring stick for the guys to realize how they need to improve and compete. Games against schools like Duke are usually won by Duke when the opposing team (SLU) makes some mental mistakes and has a bad 3 to 5 minute stretch. Next thing you know, Duke is up by 11, the building is going crazy and our guys get tested like they have never been tested before. Learning experiences like this are invaluable. I grew up watching (and believing in) coaches who would simply play the best teams they could. Rich Grawer in high school at DeSmet, Chenney at Temple, Denny Crum at Louisville. Sure, they took their lumps early, but when post-season came around, their teams excelled.

Also, remember that RM is recruiting some really top players (CE, MM and RL) and these guys (and future SLU recruits) are expecting some top competition. Every post so far in this thread has been about the fan -- what about the benefits of future recruiting. Yes, we play some Top 25 teams like X, Temple and Richmond but we also play schools like Duke....

[joe_davola]

Coming late this thread so I will not repeat. Just put me down in the camp with the majority who think this is a good thing.

Too bad we don't have a head coach who has experience in scheduling and building a no-name program and turning it into a winner!! Oh wait, we do. Have some on this Board not realized that EVERYTHING RM does has a purpose behind it. Right or wrong, no one has put more thought behind the actions of SLU basketball. By actions, I am referring, in part, to his choice to hide from the media and not be interviewed early on, then his decision to start using the national media last year and now, with some good, young horses in the stable, he's on with Bernie talking freely about our match up with National Champion Duke. Again, trust RM. He knows what he's doing.

Cheese. Sometimes a loss is very important and good for a program. First, it's a measuring stick for the guys to realize how they need to improve and compete. Games against schools like Duke are usually won by Duke when the opposing team (SLU) makes some mental mistakes and has a bad 3 to 5 minute stretch. Next thing you know, Duke is up by 11, the building is going crazy and our guys get tested like they have never been tested before. Learning experiences like this are invaluable. I grew up watching (and believing in) coaches who would simply play the best teams they could. Rich Grawer in high school at DeSmet, Chenney at Temple, Denny Crum at Louisville. Sure, they took their lumps early, but when post-season came around, their teams excelled.

Also, remember that RM is recruiting some really top players (CE, MM and RL) and these guys (and future SLU recruits) are expecting some top competition. Every post so far in this thread has been about the fan -- what about the benefits of future recruiting. Yes, we play some Top 25 teams like X, Temple and Richmond but we also play schools like Duke....

Nice Post...agree with everything you said...I don't blame folks for wanting to have a home and home with a powerhouse (God knows we deserve some of those home games) but with this type of scheduling, this can only help our future and we will see the home and home series soon enough.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

First of all, if the being in the majority makes you right then that is a sad affair. It is possible to be right and be in the minority. Second, I never said anybody was not sound thinking just that some - in my opinion - are not thinking sound on this topic. Even brilliant people can make a stupid mistake but not be stupid.

Sounds like we need to settle this with a good old fashion, arm wraslin match

[cheeseman]

would you say the positives outweigh the negatives or vice-versa?

It is a push either way

[cheeseman]

Coming late this thread so I will not repeat. Just put me down in the camp with the majority who think this is a good thing.

Too bad we don't have a head coach who has experience in scheduling and building a no-name program and turning it into a winner!! Oh wait, we do. Have some on this Board not realized that EVERYTHING RM does has a purpose behind it. Right or wrong, no one has put more thought behind the actions of SLU basketball. By actions, I am referring, in part, to his choice to hide from the media and not be interviewed early on, then his decision to start using the national media last year and now, with some good, young horses in the stable, he's on with Bernie talking freely about our match up with National Champion Duke. Again, trust RM. He knows what he's doing.

Cheese. Sometimes a loss is very important and good for a program. First, it's a measuring stick for the guys to realize how they need to improve and compete. Games against schools like Duke are usually won by Duke when the opposing team (SLU) makes some mental mistakes and has a bad 3 to 5 minute stretch. Next thing you know, Duke is up by 11, the building is going crazy and our guys get tested like they have never been tested before. Learning experiences like this are invaluable. I grew up watching (and believing in) coaches who would simply play the best teams they could. Rich Grawer in high school at DeSmet, Chenney at Temple, Denny Crum at Louisville. Sure, they took their lumps early, but when post-season came around, their teams excelled.

Also, remember that RM is recruiting some really top players (CE, MM and RL) and these guys (and future SLU recruits) are expecting some top competition. Every post so far in this thread has been about the fan -- what about the benefits of future recruiting. Yes, we play some Top 25 teams like X, Temple and Richmond but we also play schools like Duke....

As much as I have been a supporter of RM he is not the Pope when it comes to his decision making. This is the type of thing that can be spinned both ways - so there is likely not going to be agreement on it. We have had "good losses" in the past - such as to UNC there, AZ here, MO there and here - none of those propelled us forward. They are just what they were moral victories that resulted in a loss on the W-L record and forgotten about 2 days later. Playing a Duke can be a step forward if we play well and we follow up winning other tough games during the season. Not saying this won't happen but if we play poorly and loose those tough games during the season then we have gained nothing. Look at the risk reward factor - high risk for high reward or high risk for low reward depending how it turns out. As I said before, not saying we should not play the game just wish we had gotten more in return not on the come.

[cheeseman]

The duke game obviously replaces siu for one year on the schedule. I would assume next year we are back in carbondale playing the skinny mutts. Slu needed to slot one game for one year. I would guess that would be hard to do with a middling team without doing a two year deal. So either we take another worthless buy game at home or we be the buy game vs an elite program. If that was the scenario I say we hit a home run

Fair point - but I am not so sure we could not have gotten a home and home with a top 100 team either.

[moytoy12]

Fair point - but I am not so sure we could not have gotten a home and home with a top 100 team either.

Are you saying that you'd rather have a home and home with the 100th ranked team instead of a buy game at Duke? I think you said something along this line earlier in the thread, but just wanted to see if I was misunderstanding you.

[slufanskip]

It is a push either way

Fair enough.

Regarding your post below, what makes you think we could have gotten a home and home with a top 100 but chose not to?

Would you rather have a one time game at Duke or a home and home with a midmajor school ranked around 75 -100?

[cheeseman]

Are you saying that you'd rather have a home and home with the 100th ranked team instead of a buy game at Duke? I think you said something along this line earlier in the thread, but just wanted to see if I was misunderstanding you.

If it means we don't get a Delta State game at home. The Duke game away does nothing for us as season tix holders schedule wise.

[cheeseman]

Fair enough.

Regarding your post below, what makes you think we could have gotten a home and home with a top 100 but chose not to?

Would you rather have a one time game at Duke or a home and home with a midmajor school ranked around 75 -100?

In the big picture yes but if you look at it in a vacuum then I can see how the game at Duke is viewed by some.

[Westy03]

Just a sidenote Rick on the Bernie show today mentioned that Tulsa lost by 35 to Duke at Cameron and it increased their RPI ranking by 30 points

[slufanskip]

In the big picture yes but if you look at it in a vacuum then I can see how the game at Duke is viewed by some.

yes to what? The one game at Duke or the home and home with a 75 -100 rpi midmajor school

[slu72]

The duke game obviously replaces siu for one year on the schedule. I would assume next year we are back in carbondale playing the skinny mutts. Slu needed to slot one game for one year. I would guess that would be hard to do with a middling team without doing a two year deal. So either we take another worthless buy game at home or we be the buy game vs an elite program. If that was the scenario I say we hit a home run

Sounds more like the A-10 has some kind of under the table deal w/ Duke to toss up a sacrificial lamb every year... we'll be the 5th A-10 team to play at Cameron in the last five years.

[Archy McNally]

I am not a stats whiz but if what others have said in the past about RPI ratings that a road win against a 150 team will help you more than a road loss to a top team. My point simply has been that we don't get that much out of this game not that it is a terrible thing. The problem with some - I am not singling you out - is that they don't understand gradients of ideas - you are either all in or all out. In this case, there are some positives but there also negatives and in my opinion the positives are not that much better.

I think what you said is generally the case, but the rpi is 25% your record, 50% opponent's record, and 25% opponent's opponent's record and all schedules are adjusted for home and away by a factor. In this case, we lose a partial game on the 1st piece, but Duke's overall record, and Duke's opponent's records are going to be pretty darn good in total, so overall the rpi should go up just by losing to them on the road, depending what the Bill's rpi is.

[Clock_Tower]

As much as I have been a supporter of RM he is not the Pope when it comes to his decision making. This is the type of thing that can be spinned both ways - so there is likely not going to be agreement on it. We have had "good losses" in the past - such as to UNC there, AZ here, MO there and here - none of those propelled us forward. They are just what they were moral victories that resulted in a loss on the W-L record and forgotten about 2 days later. Playing a Duke can be a step forward if we play well and we follow up winning other tough games during the season. Not saying this won't happen but if we play poorly and loose those tough games during the season then we have gained nothing. Look at the risk reward factor - high risk for high reward or high risk for low reward depending how it turns out. As I said before, not saying we should not play the game just wish we had gotten more in return not on the come.

Fair points. RM can still be criticized and questioned. No one is suggested cannonization. Just the benefit of the doubt.

As to moral victories, normally I would agreee with you. Now, though, I believe we are starting to tread on different ground. No one is expecting a win by SLU but if RM can take our young Billikens to Duke's home court and have a good showing against Duke and also roll up some wins (even against no names and lesser names), then the Majerus magic will return and the nation will really start to notice SLU. Guys like Soderberg and Romar simply lack the stature, credibility and respect to turn either a good win or a moral victory into a momentum building or watershed event.

[billiken_roy]

Fair point - but I am not so sure we could not have gotten a home and home with a top 100 team either.

I don't know if they want that. I am saying we needed a one year game to fill the one year siu break

[maverick]

I don't know if they want that. I am saying we needed a one year game to fill the one year siu break

Tuning in late to the conversation, but looking forward to a trip to NC in December. Hope we can get a little contingent down there.