The tale of two programs

[Bay Area Billiken]

116 games in 7 years. 100 games in 5 years. Post-season experiences and success....etc...how is that not roughly comparable? You are isolating a handful of games when the topic is the two programs during those two coach's time periods.

Courtside,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

OT- Now that we've exhausted the SLU-Marquette debate for another year, isn't it about time for our annual debate of the WCC v. the Pac-10, or should we save that for a rainy day? I've got a lot of fresh material ready for you on that one. The Galloping Gaels of St. Mary's are certainly helping the WCC cause, aren't they? Cal wants no part of the Gaels, I'll tell you that. Duck season continues not only in Boone County, Missouri, but also in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties, California, the greater East Bay.

And one thing the A-10 and WCC have in common- zebras. They must have come out of the same referee school.

[courtside]

Great post, all around, except Travis Diener is Drew Diener's cousin, not his brother. Drew's brother, Drake, played at DePaul. Travis's sister, Rachel, played at SLU and is Rick Majerus's secretary.

And, none of the players mentioned in his post were recruited after Wade. Not one. It'd be inaccurate to say that most of Marquette's success has been because of one player and luck. If you keep adding up player disparities, coaching disparities, commitment disparities, relationship disparities, facility disparities, budget and resource disparities, historical disparities, etc...and it becomes a lot less about one player and luck, and more about preparation meets opportunity over time.

[Majerus Magic]

I suspect Majerus will retire from SLU. I don't think he aspires to coach at a BCS school. He never has. He didn't even stick with the NBA, but he could certainly be an NBA assistant coach or head coach. However, I think he really likes the college environment, and he coaches at programs where the students are students, if you get my drift.

The only BCS school he considered was USC, which is still not a state school. If he were to leave SLU and still want to coach, where would he go? He isn't going to Alabama!

I met a guy over the summer who was from Utah, an older gentlemen, who owned a sport's magazine out there. When he found out I was from St. Louis he went on and on about how St. Louis was going to the promised land and how great Majerus was. He said he may rub people the wrong way, but give it time and we will have a winner. Anyway, back to the point of the story, he emailed me a story that he did with RM in which Rick and I quote "My ideal Job is a Midwestern Jesuit school, close enough for me to drive home. That would be perfect for me." So, he's not going anyway.

Anyone know how to make a pdf available for the entire board? I would love to share it with everyone.

[courtside]

Courtside, read my original post, I don't hate MU, I thought I was very complimentary of Crean and how I admired how MU has put together an outstanding program. Actually also I like Kevin O'Neill. I was working near Knoxville when Kevin was at UT. I heard him speak at a Catholic Business Mens group and he was great. Though I was never big fan of Deane. He seemed to me to be a strange bird on how he treated his players. Most of the MU grads I know also kind of agreed with me concerning Deane. Okay, you know ones that liked him, no big deal. BTW, Spoon had a 8-4 record with Deane, Bayarea corrected me.

Also, so you are big MU fan, no big deal, I consider myself a big biased Bills fan

I never said I was a big MU fan, and I am not sure if you mean Mizzou or Marquette. You must have misunderstood my posts, or you do not understand how I post. I post objectively regardless of school or team, and regardless if they are not liked here, and I do so with there being some relevance to SLU.

Actually, Kevin O'Neill has one of the most foul mouths and tempers of any coach out there, and that's saying something. I suggest you take a deeper sample of those who spent time around those people and ask them their opinions. Marquette has multiple message boards. Or even recent past contributor Mark Miller would oblige you as well. I believe the masses are closer to what the MU88 poster suggested here. I don't think it's a matter of a few here think this and a few here think that. Best way to find your answer is to go a large sample and ask it.

I said I thought most of your original post was a fair representation. I simply disagreed regarding Deane and Spoonhour, and I explained in detail why I thought so.

I don't think any reasonable objective person can say they didn't think the results of Deane and Spoonhour were roughly comparable. You are isolating a small handful of head to head games between the two of them. I am not.

If the topic instead was compare the head to head games between these two coaches during this time period, then the conversation would be different.

I don't recall Dwyane Wade having strong games at SLU the two times he had them. One of them I remember him having the flu, and he didn't have a great game in the other one either. Am I therefore going to conclude he wasn't all that great overall at Marquette? Of course not.

[courtside]

Courtside,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

OT- Now that we've exhausted the SLU-Marquette debate for another year, isn't it about time for our annual debate of the WCC v. the Pac-10, or should we save that for a rainy day? I've got a lot of fresh material ready for you on that one. The Galloping Gaels of St. Mary's are certainly helping the WCC cause, aren't they? Cal wants no part of the Gaels, I'll tell you that. Duck season continues not only in Boone County, Missouri, but also in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties, California, the greater East Bay.

And one thing the A-10 and WCC have in common- zebras. They must have come out of the same referee school.

In regards to WCC, Pac 10, etc...Everything depends on the year, the program, etc...ever changing.

Am I going to say Cal isn't a good, solid improved team this year because they lost by 30 to Mizzou? Nope.

St. Mary's and the Zags should be good. I think Keating will have SCU on the right track in a couple of years. They have had some tough losses this year.

De La Salle is in the USA Today 25 for hoops. (I'm not a fan of ranking high schools nationally in any sport)...but nice publicity nonetheless.

[Bay Area Billiken]

In regards to WCC, Pac 10, etc...Everything depends on the year, the program, etc...ever changing.

Am I going to say Cal isn't a good, solid improved team this year because they lost by 30 to Mizzou? Nope.

St. Mary's and the Zags should be good. I think Keating will have SCU on the right track in a couple of years. They have had some tough losses this year.

De La Salle is in the USA Today 25 for hoops. (I'm not a fan of ranking high schools nationally in any sport)...but nice publicity nonetheless.

Thanks for mentioning DeLaSalle, my son's alma mater. I saw DeLaSalle play for the first time on Saturday, and they are very good, an excellent high school team. The point guard, Brandon Smith, a 3 year starter, is headed for Cal. DLS goes 6'6", 6'6", 6'8" up front, and the 6'8" guy, John Macarthur, is a Junior. St. Mary's Coach Randy Bennett was seated a few rows in front of me. The word is that Santa Clara is heavily recruiting Bo Levesque, one of the 6'6" kids, and Bennett was there to see him too, among others.

I also saw St. Mary's play at USF. Patty Mills is a fantastic player. SMC plays at Gonzaga on Thursday night. SMC also has a big center in Omar Samhan and a solid PF in Diamon Simpson.

You are correct that Santa Clara has lost a lot of close games. SCU has a big center too.

I saw USF play toe to toe with Cal in Berkeley, but USF has fallen on hard times since, 0-5 in the WCC. Still, it appears that Rex Walters is going to be a good coach for USF.

Cal is certainly an improved team under Mike Montgomery, an excellent coach. But I really don't know what to make of Cal, given that 93-66 road loss to Mizzou. Strange things seem to happen to Cal teams, football and basketball, in their rare forays to the other side of the Rocky Mountains.

All of us hoops fans would dearly love to see St. Mary's play Cal. Those two schools are only a few miles and the Caldecutt Tunnel apart. But that won't happen any time soon, not as long as SMC is this good.

[courtside]

Thanks for mentioning DeLaSalle, my son's alma mater. I saw DeLaSalle play for the first time on Saturday, and they are very good, an excellent high school team. The point guard, Brandon Smith, a 3 year starter, is headed for Cal. DLS goes 6'6", 6'6", 6'8" up front, and the 6'8" guy, John Macarthur, is a Junior. St. Mary's Coach Randy Bennett was seated a few rows in front of me. The word is that Santa Clara is heavily recruiting Bo Levesque, one of the 6'6" kids, and Bennett was there to see him too, among others.

I also saw St. Mary's play at USF. Patty Mills is a fantastic player. SMC plays at Gonzaga on Thursday night. SMC also has a big center in Omar Samhan and a solid PF in Diamon Simpson.

You are correct that Santa Clara has lost a lot of close games. SCU has a big center too.

I saw USF play toe to toe with Cal in Berkeley, but USF has fallen on hard times since, 0-5 in the WCC. Still, it appears that Rex Walters is going to be a good coach for USF.

Cal is certainly an improved team under Mike Montgomery, an excellent coach. But I really don't know what to make of Cal, given that 93-66 road loss to Mizzou. Strange things seem to happen to Cal teams, football and basketball, in their rare forays to the other side of the Rocky Mountains.

All of us hoops fans would dearly love to see St. Mary's play Cal. Those two schools are only a few miles and the Caldecutt Tunnel apart. But that won't happen any time soon, not as long as SMC is this good.

I was having some fun with the Cal v Mizzou game. I should have added that Mike Anderson can coach circles around Mike Montgomery, etc...blah blah...lol. The point obviously being that I won't be judging either team on one game.

The big kid from SCU sure plays better than he looks, and Samhan seemingly has been there forever at St. Mary's considering how much he played as a Frosh. Hopefully for SLU the Australians pay dividends as they did in Utah for Majerus and for Bennett now.

Rex Walters can coach. He coached at same school in Florida as Matt Dougherty due to their friendship. The other Bay Area schools are going to catch up in a few years.

And speaking of the Bay Area, how about Johnny Dawkins hiring Dick Davey, a very shrewd move there. Keating can recruit. He'll increase the talent base at SCU.

I always notice when the topic isn't a SLU board related hated school, everyone seems okay with posts and objectivity about other schools. Funny how that works.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I was having some fun with the Cal v Mizzou game. I should have added that Mike Anderson can coach circles around Mike Montgomery, etc...blah blah...lol. The point obviously being that I won't be judging either team on one game.

The big kid from SCU sure plays better than he looks, and Samhan seemingly has been there forever at St. Mary's considering how much he played as a Frosh. Hopefully for SLU the Australians pay dividends as they did in Utah for Majerus and for Bennett now.

Rex Walters can coach. He coached at same school in Florida as Matt Dougherty due to their friendship. The other Bay Area schools are going to catch up in a few years.

And speaking of the Bay Area, how about Johnny Dawkins hiring Dick Davey, a very shrewd move there. Keating can recruit. He'll increase the talent base at SCU.

I always notice when the topic isn't a SLU board related hated school, everyone seems okay with posts and objectivity about other schools. Funny how that works.

Come to think of it, I was in attendance when Stanford played at Santa Clara. That was bizarre seeing Dick Davey, the longtime Santa Clara Coach, as Johnny Dawkins' right hand man and #1 assistant at Stanford. I'm told that Santa Clara's big guy, Big John Bryant (6'11"), has lost 100 pounds since first coming to SCU. He's from Pinole Valley High School and has been playing against St. Mary's Omar Samhan (also 6'11") from San Ramon Valley High School, literally for years. You might know that Samhan originally committed to USF. We SLU supporters remember the similar Craig Upchurch situation.

[GoBills]

You, like many SLU fans, are too preoccupied in defending SLU at all costs, which also allows for envy to creep in of other places. My point was and is that SLU and Marquette were roughly comparable under Deane and Spoonhour. Marquette saw this as not good enough, and SLU saw it as pretty good, even great to some.

It's also important to not dismiss history, tradition, success, and relationships prior to these eras of Spoonhour and Deane. You can't simply say, well, both were at this similar point at that time, Marquette went one way and SLU went another. On the surface that is roughly comparable, but that would not be a complete picture.

SLU builds a shiny new expensive Arena and facilities, and people expect it to rain the first day.

Instead of saying our isolated handful of games over many decades was better than yours, how about thinking a little bigger than that, and without envy?

Well at the risk of "defending SLU at all costs" or speaking out of "envy" I will attempt to weigh in. You certainly seem to know a lot of history about both programs, but I think that is what you are not factoring in enough when analyzing Spoonhour vs. Mike Deane. Admittedly, I don't remember much about Mike Deane, but you point out the numbers are pretty even, but again, I think you underestimate the historical context. I will defer to you on this, but I suspect that Deane probably did about what the prior Marquette coach or maybe even a little worse. How was the program he inherited? How much talent did he inherit? You do talk a lot about Marquette's great tradition and institutional support, etc. I am going to guess this is where Deane had a HUGE advantage overly Charlie. You can speak to the specifics about Deane, but here is what I remember about what Charlie inherited. A program that hadn't been to the NCAA Tournament in over three decades. A team that had something like just 5 wins the previous year. It was a team in shambles. Players quitting and transferring out. He basically only had two players. Now while those two players were good and blossomed to be outstanding, Charlie deserves credit for developing their talent. He also quickly surrounded those two players with a juco stud - Donnie Dobbs, a big-time, experienced point guard transfer in H Waldman, two excellent juco role players in David Robinson and Carl Turner, plus some nice role players further down the bench like Carlos Macauley, Jeff Harris and Donnie Campbell to add some depth. So after inheriting a 5 win team and having almost no time to put together a recruiting class, he comes back to win 12, which may not sound like much, but considering he was playing with a 7 man roster, that was quite impressive. He followed it up with back-to-back NCAA Tournament appearances at SLU - repeat the school that hadn't made the big dance in forever. Also, took a program with a mediocre fan following to top 10 in the country in attendance, which was amazing. I'm trying to look at this objectively and not through my Billiken Blue glasses, but I think Spoon clearly gets the nod considering the obstacles he faced and the advantages Deane enjoyed coming into his program with "tradition", "history" and "success."

[Milwaukee Billiken]

And, none of the players mentioned in his post were recruited after Wade. Not one. It'd be inaccurate to say that most of Marquette's success has been because of one player and luck. If you keep adding up player disparities, coaching disparities, commitment disparities, relationship disparities, facility disparities, budget and resource disparities, historical disparities, etc...and it becomes a lot less about one player and luck, and more about preparation meets opportunity over time.

You must have misread my original post. I mentioned the players I did to show that in addition to luck and Dwayne Wade, recruiting one's own city can be extremely beneficial to the strength of a program. That's something SLU has always struggled to do, at least since I started following the program. You're almost right though. All the local players I mentioned in my post were signed either before or at the same time as Wade, save Steve Novak. My point was that recruiting local players paid of in those instances. Although they were good, nobody predicted Diener or Novak would be NBA caliber players when they were recruited. Marquette recruited locally and it paid off.

What I failed to mention is that the 4 players currently starring for the team, Wes Matthews, Jerel McNeal, Dom James, and Lazar Hayward, were all recruited after Wade. MU has recruited three and four-star reruits every year since 2004, and their 2009 class looks to be the best in years. There has been an exponential improvement in recruiting at MU, post Wade.

I guess to set the record straight, I fundamentally disagree with your position. I obviously think MU success has a lot more to do with luck than anything else. You mention facility disparities, but they've always been even, with SLU now well ahead. You mention coaching disparities, but there really weren't any. The two teams played in the same conference for several years. They have similar budgets. The large differences are that Marquette won a national championship 31 years ago, and has always recruited well locally (maybe the 2 are related?). And yes, Marquette lucked out with Dwayne Wade. His success and that surrounding his teams led to an eventual Big East invite and improved recruits. It wasn't just landing Wade that was lucky, it was the timing. The improved recruits post Wade have turned Marquette into a competetive team in the Big East and in turn will continue to foster more recruits. As Bay Area Bill points out, SLU simply wasn't as lucky with Larry Hughes. With another year of Hughes, who knows what would have happened with the program? My main point is that with the pieces now apparently in place, SLU is primed to break out.

[mcglotherirvin]

ridiculous post once again. tommie is not scoring like he was as a sophomore, but that doesn't mean he got worse. RM made him into a good defender. he was a terrible defender before RM and BS knew it but couldn't do anything about it.

you don't think any of the freshmen are better than they were in December? First of all, that was a month ago so i would be shocked to see any major improvement. Second, in early December we were playing total cupcakes. Sure, Conklin, Reed, and Thompson looked like Olajuwon, Ewing, and Barkley a few times but now we are playing real teams so they don't stand out as much. What would they have looked like in December against Xavier. What would they look like now against UMBC?

thank god i'm not as negative as you. life must be depressing.

tommie is no where near the player he was as a sophomore imo. and his shot has continued to get worse form wise after being near perfect his sophomore year.

he is rebounding again this year as opposed to last, but it is my understanding he wasnt supposed to hit the boards last year and has been turned loose again this year. applause.

i will disagree on eckerle. i think he is slower and seems very tenative with the ball and i liked the freshman eckerle better than the sophomore eckerle.

other than mitchell, i dont think any of the freshmen is better than they were early december.

i will say that since xmas mitchell has hit the switch and imo is not a freshman anymore.

next time we go to lunch tower, i will be happy to tell you lisch stories if you want, but the board is tired of billiken roy lisch stories so i wont post them.

[billiken_roy]

thank god i'm not as negative as you. life must be depressing.

you got that line from me two years ago in a response to one of your previous gem posts.

dont worry, i have used the time to branch out from billiken basketball. it is no longer the priority it used to be. i still love teh billikens, but it doesnt rank as high as previously. i now spend more of my free time watching more high school ball. my daughter's belleville west team is one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the st louis area and i am having a ball watching them as well as other high school games. so agonizing over brutal rickma ball hasnt been a big concern.

[ACE]

you got that line from me two years ago in a response to one of your previous gem posts.

dont worry, i have used the time to branch out from billiken basketball. it is no longer the priority it used to be. i still love teh billikens, but it doesnt rank as high as previously. i now spend more of my free time watching more high school ball. my daughter's belleville west team is one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the st louis area and i am having a ball watching them as well as other high school games. so agonizing over brutal rickma ball hasnt been a big concern.

Yeah that "brutal rickma ball" is agonizing compared to that exciting, thrilling Sodie ball we were treated to.

[billiken_roy]

Yeah that "brutal rickma ball" is agonizing compared to that exciting, thrilling Sodie ball we were treated to.

one would have thought that sodie ball would never have held a candle to rickma ball. but thus far, rickma ball is indeed brutal and is worse than sodie ball. no if's buts or when's about it.

[SLUDrew]

one would have thought that sodie ball would never have held a candle to rickma ball. but thus far, rickma ball is indeed brutal and is worse than sodie ball. no if's buts or when's about it.

Roy, when did Soderberg EVER put together a class like this year's, let alone back it up with a class like next year's? Coach has not even been here for two years and you are ready to go back to Sodie ball? I miss the days of beating out Stetson, SEMO and Elon for recruits as much as the next guy, but I'll take beating out Alabama, Wake Forest, and Notre Dame any day.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, when did Soderberg EVER put together a class like this year's, let alone back it up with a class like next year's? Coach has not even been here for two years and you are ready to go back to Sodie ball? I miss the days of beating out Stetson, SEMO and Elon for recruits as much as the next guy, but I'll take beating out Alabama, Wake Forest, and Notre Dame any day.

drew, you are now mixing subject matter. i am talking about on the court play. i am not talking about back to back recruiting classes. if all you care about billiken basketball is to talk about recruiting, you are 100% correct. my previous comments though in this thread are about the play on the floor.

and if you are correct, that we have so much more talent, then one would think by this point in this season rickma x's and o's would be shining through. even with the inexperience factor.

[ACE]

one would have thought that sodie ball would never have held a candle to rickma ball. but thus far, rickma ball is indeed brutal and is worse than sodie ball. no if's buts or when's about it.

You forget 2004-05? (Here come the excuses about injuries)

16-13 the next year was better, but not exactly knocking them dead either.

This year, we are seeing the results of two and a half years of terrible recruiting by Sodie.

[RB2.0]

This year, we are seeing the results of two and a half years of terrible recruiting by Sodie.

That has been my point throughout many of my posts thus far. The position we are in is because of just an awful few years of recruiting where we were playing Division 2 6th man's as starters on a major (or mid major, depending on your opinion) conference team. BS was a great coach...for a Division 3 school. He's now where he belongs in Iowa and probably will be much happier and succesful.

Rick Ma realized this immediatly and acted the way he did. However, I do have to agree with BRoy when he says we haven't made much improvement since the beginning of the season. In fact, I think we may have regressed. Now whether its the talent, coaching, or scheme is up for debate, but the fact remains, we should be better.

MU doesn't necessarily have down years. They reload. I'm hoping Rick Ma can get to that point with the SLU program.

[MU88]

I obviously think MU success has a lot more to do with luck than anything else. You mention facility disparities, but they've always been even, with SLU now well ahead. You mention coaching disparities, but there really weren't any. The two teams played in the same conference for several years. They have similar budgets. The large differences are that Marquette won a national championship 31 years ago, and has always recruited well locally (maybe the 2 are related?). And yes, Marquette lucked out with Dwayne Wade. His success and that surrounding his teams led to an eventual Big East invite and improved recruits. It wasn't just landing Wade that was lucky, it was the timing. The improved recruits post Wade have turned Marquette into a competetive team in the Big East and in turn will continue to foster more recruits. As Bay Area Bill points out, SLU simply wasn't as lucky with Larry Hughes. With another year of Hughes, who knows what would have happened with the program? My main point is that with the pieces now apparently in place, SLU is primed to break out.

Facilities: The AL at Marquette is considered the finest practice facility in the country according to Sporting News. The BC is about 6 blocks from campus (as was the arena before it). It is considered a primary tenant in that building. Until SLU's new arena was built, MU enjoyed a huge advantage over the past few years.

Budgets: MU had the 4th highest bball expenses in the country last year, around $8 million. SLU's budget was around $2.4 million. Even in CUSA, MU spent a lot on hoops.

Recruiting: MU rarely recruits locally. I am not sure if there are any Wisconsin kids on the roster this year, but for Matthews. Al made a name for itself recruiting NY. Chicago has produced many of MU's greats, Ellis, Rivers, McNeal, etc. Sure, a Novak or Chones comes around once in a while, but not all that often.

Wade and BE: Little or nothing to do with MU's entry in the BE. MU almost entered the BE with ND in the early 90s. It was a long term goal put in place by MU prior AD. I think their relationship with ND was MU's foot in the door.

Success: I am not sure Wade is the reason MU is successful now. MU has always been successful to differing degrees. 40 winning seasons in 43 years is proof of that. Joining the BE allowed MU has allowed MU to take a good program and make it better. Is luck a part? Sure, but you kind of make your own luck. 10+ years of banging on the door of the BE coupled with a huge financial investment in the program put them in this position. That said, a few mistakes and it all could slip away. Staying good requires a lot more than luck.

BTW, O'Neil was a huge potty mouth and a pain in the heinie. But, the man could recruit and coach on the defensive end. Deane inherited a Sweet 16 with a top recruiting class coming in. Deane was a terrific, albeit eccentric coach, but he was a terrible recruiter. After his statement that an NIT should be considered a good year and that the best MU fans could hope for was an occasional NCAA run, he was fired. The administration found his comments unacceptable.

[Bay Area Billiken]

MU88 wrote: I think their relationship with ND was MU's foot in the door.

Thanks for this, and I suspect you are right on the money re how Marquette received the Big East invite.

Courtside often posts re Marquette's "relationships" and SLU's lack of them. I'm not sure what SLU could do about the Notre Dame situation, however. SLU could not make ND play SLU, and especially could not make ND play SLU in St. Louis in the modern era. The only regular season games betwen SLU and ND since the early 1970's were both single shot (perhaps "buy" games) played in South Bend. More recently, even an apparent SLU "home" game in the NIT, perhaps that would have been at Family Arena, was mysteriously "transferred" at the last minute to the "neutral site" of Ft. Wayne, Indiana.

My point is that you can't have had a "relationship" if the other party didn't want to have one.

This being said, SLU and ND are scheduled to be in the same tournament next year in suburban Chicago. So maybe some type of SLU-ND "relationship" is being rekindled.

[Box and Won]

BTW, O'Neil was a huge potty mouth and a pain in the heinie. But, the man could recruit and coach on the defensive end.

He had that awesome recruiting video featuring the hit song "I Had the Time of My Life" from the Dirty Dancing soundtrack that was featured in Hoop Dreams. If Grawer would have had a video like that, he might still be coaching at SLU.

[courtside]

You must have misread my original post. I mentioned the players I did to show that in addition to luck and Dwayne Wade, recruiting one's own city can be extremely beneficial to the strength of a program. That's something SLU has always struggled to do, at least since I started following the program. You're almost right though. All the local players I mentioned in my post were signed either before or at the same time as Wade, save Steve Novak. My point was that recruiting local players paid of in those instances. Although they were good, nobody predicted Diener or Novak would be NBA caliber players when they were recruited. Marquette recruited locally and it paid off.

What I failed to mention is that the 4 players currently starring for the team, Wes Matthews, Jerel McNeal, Dom James, and Lazar Hayward, were all recruited after Wade. MU has recruited three and four-star reruits every year since 2004, and their 2009 class looks to be the best in years. There has been an exponential improvement in recruiting at MU, post Wade.

I guess to set the record straight, I fundamentally disagree with your position. I obviously think MU success has a lot more to do with luck than anything else. You mention facility disparities, but they've always been even, with SLU now well ahead. You mention coaching disparities, but there really weren't any. The two teams played in the same conference for several years. They have [/b]similar budgets.[/b] The large differences are that Marquette won a national championship 31 years ago, and has always recruited well locally (maybe the 2 are related?). And yes, Marquette lucked out with Dwayne Wade. His success and that surrounding his teams led to an eventual Big East invite and improved recruits. It wasn't just landing Wade that was lucky, it was the timing. The improved recruits post Wade have turned Marquette into a competetive team in the Big East and in turn will continue to foster more recruits. As Bay Area Bill points out, SLU simply wasn't as lucky with Larry Hughes. With another year of Hughes, who knows what would have happened with the program? My main point is that with the pieces now apparently in place, SLU is primed to break out.

MU88 covers this. Try midmajority.com for some budget information. Budgets and resources haven't been close in recent years until SLU's new facility.

O'Neill recruited multiple top 100 in state players with little resources when he first arrived at Marquette and took that team from 11-18 to Sweet 16 their Senior season with more recruits along the way. That wasn't luck, he was a closer. Coffee's for closers and he was a guy who could do more with less. Many people can't. Had his own destructive personality not gotten in the way, and had resources and facilities improved, he'd have been long term highly successful at Marquette. As it turns out, it didn't happen.

Jim McIlvaine, Chris Crawford, Amal McCaskill, Steve Novak, Travis Diener, Dwyane Wade, ...etc..all NBA players from O'Neill to the present. Other guys you mentioned like Meritt etc..When do you say to yourself it is more than just luck?

It's a disservice to SLU to say it was or is just luck. That doesn't allow SLU to learn how others have had success and how to build and maintain it. Isn't that really the point here?

[jimbofive]

one would have thought that sodie ball would never have held a candle to rickma ball. but thus far, rickma ball is indeed brutal and is worse than sodie ball. no if's buts or when's about it.

Nuh uh. Willie Reed dunks it all the time. So it's better.

[eastsidejoe]

one would have thought that sodie ball would never have held a candle to rickma ball. but thus far, rickma ball is indeed brutal and is worse than sodie ball. no if's buts or when's about it.

no way rickma ball is worse than sodie ball. right now we have some problems, but if you thing what we watched for 4 years before rickma ball was better than we are watching now, let me know what you are smokin or drinkin.

[moytoy12]

no way rickma ball is worse than sodie ball. right now we have some problems, but if you thing what we watched for 4 years before rickma ball was better than we are watching now, let me know what you are smokin or drinkin.

Joe, not trying to be a jerk here, but could you explained to me what our offense is trying to accomplish when it gets the ball. I can't really decipher it, but I will admit, I'm not a basketball x's and o's guy.