Jeremy Felton

[moytoy12]

Its true that Roy wasnt the only one, there were several who shared the same or similar opinion. In response to the part about Brad asking him to wait, my question is why? I'm not sure how getting a commitment from a local center would've stopped him getting any of his other targets. Was Brad recruiting any other centers? Brad didnt have to recruit this kid to SLU, he asked to come. Thats what makes it so bad. The Billiken should be heading into this season with the reigning A-10 freshman of the year Josh Harrellson as a sophomore good enough to play for Kentucky. These are the kinds of mistakes that cost you a job. My argument was the timing of his firing, not that SLU shouldn't have made the move to get Majerus. I think Brad did a solid job overall given the circumstances., Brad made some HUGE mistakes in recruiting. I never had a problem with him losing on out on a player he recruited. I had a problem when he didnt recruit kids at all that he should've been recruiting in his own backyard, namely 3 Ahearn, Barnett, and Harrellson. Ahearn turned out to be a college star and NBA player, Barnett is might be the best Ivy League player in the country and Harrellson is playing for a program that many consider to be the best college basketball program of all-time.

Well said v, one of your best posts.

[willie]

Several people in this thread talk about how valuable and what a good job Thorpe did.{thats also my opinion} It begs the question why did RM let him go? Did they have personalitity problems,or was it just he's not my guy? Anybody got any real knowledge?

[billiken_roy]

Several people in this thread talk about how valuable and what a good job Thorpe did.{thats also my opinion} It begs the question why did RM let him go? Did they have personalitity problems,or was it just he's not my guy? Anybody got any real knowledge?

willie great post, because i agree with you. there appeared to be no sensible reason for angres to go, especially if rickma had an inkling that biancardi was indeed heading to espn.

[Guest BillikenReport]

another flat out lie nate. i was not the only one that had this opinion. i may have been the most vocal, but not the only one. and i believe that brad would not have bold faced lied in front of the entire tip off club where brad said that he asked him (harrelson) to wait and he wouldnt when asked about being offering harrelson a scholarship in the fall of his senior year(many others have attested to hear brad at that billiken club meeting make that statement).

considering harrelson's track record reneging on his loi to be closer to home and then heading to kentucky instead, plus leading slu on (one would believe that rickma pretty much figured harrelson was in the bag or he wouldnt have cleared the roster to the extent he did when he did) i would tend to believe soderberg more than harrelson.

Another? Please point out the lies I have told on this board.

Here's one for you Hypocrite Roy, I heard yesterday that BS did get a verbal commitment from a member of the Class of 2008 before he was fired but didn't want anybody to know about it so he kept it quiet. Good strategy. It probably cost him his job.

[Clock_Tower]

again probably semantics but of your "either or" selections, i guess the answer is mistaking the interest of the better guys who eventually said no. brad tried to hit homeruns to augment lisch and liddell instead of taking the safe hits at home. he obviously paid for it with his job. there is no argument there.

In my mind, Brad most likely underestimated JH and assumed he could land bigs like him at any time. I applaud Brad for trying to hit a home run. Had Brad simply got a few singles or a double the years prior, then no need for the homerun. Still, one of the biggest differences between Brad and RM is that RM knows when to move on to Plan B. For awhile, it appeared that RM was either playing with FJ or that FJ may have been a Plan B of RM's. Despite losing out to Suggs, Brandenburg, the McCluer North kid going to SIUC and others, RM landed what appears to be one of the best classes in years. Whether our class is a Plan A, Plan B or Plan C, certainly it is a good class and no strike-outs. Same appears to be true with this Fall's class.

[cheeseman]

cheese just as you took stlhi to task about his observance and opinion that brad had some positive inroads to local recruiting, (you said, "After Luke, TL and KL, his recruitment of locals had sputter out.") i pointed out that stlhi was indeed correct that brad had not "sputter out" and had a great hand in the bringing in of 3 of this year's prized class, plus other local recruits that rickma didnt like for whatever reason.

i did not say that brad was the sole reason we landed thompson, reed and john as you leaped to judgement of my words. if i said that in a post in this thread then please show me the quote.

i will say that while i agree brad isnt the sole reason they are at slu, i will say had brad and angres not done the preliminary ground work, i am doubting that rickma would have been in position to close the deal on the three of them, thus, reason you should give soderberg and angres some credit instead of complete "sputter out" claims.

Unfortunately all what you just said is speculation and just that. The kids signed on RM's watch not BS. They had plenty of chances to verbal for BS but choose not to for whatever the reason. To give any more credit to BS other than having introduced the kids to SLU and leaving a list of who we were looking at for RM is just not correct.

[billiken_roy]

Another? Please point out the lies I have told on this board.

Here's one for you Hypocrite Roy, I heard yesterday that BS did get a verbal commitment from a member of the Class of 2008 before he was fired but didn't want anybody to know about it so he kept it quiet. Good strategy. It probably cost him his job.

nate you love to take my words and create visions that arent true. you have done it over and over. when you want to call a truce i would be happy to give when you do.

as to the soderberg account you just gave, it doesnt surprise me. i have long complained here about slu and their "CIA" approach to things. i had multiple discussions with brad about his habit of secrecy and that i thought it hampered us more than helped us. so i agree with you completely that would have been stupid. unless the verbal was huge and then went elsewhere, then i doubt it cost him his job. what cost him his job was indeed his want to hit recruiting homeruns those last two years instead of continuing with what he did the first three years where he took the good player that flew under the radar.

[billiken_roy]

In my mind, Brad most likely underestimated JH and assumed he could land bigs like him at any time. I applaud Brad for trying to hit a home run. Had Brad simply got a few singles or a double the years prior, then no need for the homerun. Still, one of the biggest differences between Brad and RM is that RM knows when to move on to Plan B. For awhile, it appeared that RM was either playing with FJ or that FJ may have been a Plan B of RM's. Despite losing out to Suggs, Brandenburg, the McCluer North kid going to SIUC and others, RM landed what appears to be one of the best classes in years. Whether our class is a Plan A, Plan B or Plan C, certainly it is a good class and no strike-outs. Same appears to be true with this Fall's class.

totally agree. john is the perfect example. rickma saw suggs was a very extreme longshot and cashed in and took the very good as well john. it wouldnt have surprised me at all if brad sensed the same either or he would have played out the suggs hand and likely finished second to lorenzo.

(that said, i think brad was planning on john and suggs both. rickma though used spots with conklin and mitchell and couldnt follow brad's plan).

for what it is worth, if the picture we have been painted about conklin and mitchell are true, rickma did much better than if we would have subbed suggs and kramer in their place imo.

[billiken_roy]

Unfortunately all what you just said is speculation and just that. The kids signed on RM's watch not BS. They had plenty of chances to verbal for BS but choose not to for whatever the reason. To give any more credit to BS other than having introduced the kids to SLU and leaving a list of who we were looking at for RM is just not correct.

for them to have verballed for soderberg would have entailed veballing before school was even out for their junior year. that makes no sense at all. you surely arent serious.

[STL Hoops Insider]

Again, I dont want to bash Brad. The overall job was fine, it was just so up and down without consistency. I give him a B grade overall. It was just ups and downs. Drejaj hitting the game-winning shot in the NIT was a great moment, I will always remember. Beating #2 Louisville was classic. NIT's, a 20 win season, finishing 3rd in A-10 in the first season in the conference with two freshman starters, all great stuff. Although his style of play often made games hard to watch, I wont argue with the coaching. He did make some critical personnel mistakes that cost him a job. He didnt offer Harrellson, but Majerus did and that says it all. The kid was good enough to say thanks, but no thanks to Majerus, but Brad just didnt see it in his own backyard on his son's rival team. I have to say that part of it is on Josh. If Josh would've played with the Eagles, he would've been a national recruit and Brad would've had no choice.

[Cowboy]

cowboy if cheese had said, "brad's local recruiting efforts were sputtering" i wouldnt have argued about that. however he said, "sputtering OUT". OUT as in nothing. dead. over.

let me know when you need more help with your 3rd grade reader assignments. you are doing better and soon should be up to needed levels to keep up.

Note to other fandom readers: the above last statement may be extreme, however he did call me nuts first.

i did not call you nuts, i said in my opinion trying to defend brad's recruiting was nuts - as in not making sense to me

and i don't believe i have ever on this board resorted to name calling

many people say "print out" when talking about printing a page, where the word is out is not necessary

to say it again, defending brad's recruiting is nuts - it does not make sense to me, look at the results

[cheeseman]

cowboy if cheese had said, "brad's local recruiting efforts were sputtering" i wouldnt have argued about that. however he said, "sputtering OUT". OUT as in nothing. dead. over.

let me know when you need more help with your 3rd grade reader assignments. you are doing better and soon should be up to needed levels to keep up.

Note to other fandom readers: the above last statement may be extreme, however he did call me nuts first.

OK so who now is talking semantics? Since none of the locals that RM signed had verballed for SLU by the time BS was fired, nobody will actually know if BS had made any actual successful recruiting of local talent. Sputtering or sputtering out - what is the difference? You can try to parse words for your answer to this question but the truth is that you continue to make the same mistake over and over. You take such offense to anything that anybody says that is not in 100% agreement with you that you end up nit picking to try to justify what you have said to the point that the overall gest of the comments get lost. I know you will respond angrily to this post but I am sorry it is something I had to finally say to you. I hope you are mature enough to take my comment as a constructive and not a personal attack. I did say anything about you personally as some wrongly do - my comments were about your behavior only.

[Clock_Tower]

Another? Please point out the lies I have told on this board.

Here's one for you Hypocrite Roy, I heard yesterday that BS did get a verbal commitment from a member of the Class of 2008 before he was fired but didn't want anybody to know about it so he kept it quiet. Good strategy. It probably cost him his job.

I presume you mean from someone other than his son, Kramer? Are you at liberty or care to disclose who?

[cheeseman]

for them to have verballed for soderberg would have entailed veballing before school was even out for their junior year. that makes no sense at all. you surely arent serious.

Once again, my point is simply that if my expectations - which are not - that they should have verballed that early are wrong then yours are also wrong when you try to give BS the credit for them signing after he left.

[STL Hoops Insider]

for them to have verballed for soderberg would have entailed veballing before school was even out for their junior year. that makes no sense at all. you surely arent serious.

roundtree, booker, and Waller had all given verbals at that time. it happens a lot. I cant remember when Griffey committed, but it may have been before the year was over too, I'll check later. In fact, Thompson may have also committed to SLU before school was out or it was very close.

[Taj79]

Whoever said "BS didn't hit a single or a double" is right on IMO. Did we need home runs? The college game can be sustained with one recruit per year in some cases. We had our one in IV. Then we got one in LM. Then we got two in TL and KL. At this point, we are doing well again IMO and BS is the architect. Then the wheels come off the bus. We got blanked for two years. Not only was there no fall signings, we were what appeared to be last guys to the scrap table in the spring as well. Sure, you can find a diamond in the rough every now and then but I don't believe you can live off that style for very long. And the price was paid. The whys and wherefores asked of that staff have to be answered and that usually percolates to the head coach. I was shocked as any that he got axed when and how he did but the saving grace was who we hired. I don't believe I would have the hope I now have for the program even if this was a Cuonzo or an Angres or even a Digger. The only answer was a "name" and I never in a million years would have predicted the way it went.

But even back then, when the news first broke, I was not happy. There was a lot of speculation that the former regime was about to break the bank. They were going to do that based on dad's association with the son and who the kid was playing with. Griffey. Suggs. Thompson. John. Kramer and others. But to quote someone else, cheese I think, what makes us -- any of us including me -- believe that was really going to happen? The status quo had been in place for the last two years running. The bench was lined up with guys like Knollmeyer, Maguire, Mitchell, Relaphorde, Dixon, Ikeakor, Jacks and Jones. Eckerle and Harrellson (depending on who you believe) were determined not to be worthy of an offer from this program. I can only imagine the depths of despair the opening of the Fetz would temporarily delay if the roster after this year continued to reflect that trend. There is no way in gawd's name we are sitting here with names like Conklin, Mitchell, Cotto, Reed and Cassity in the fold. No way he finds the kid from Ohio, let alone get him to commit. It was drastic, but it had to happen, in hindsight.

As for Harrellson, I intend to watch him as closely as I can this coming year. I can't wait to see how good he really is because I believe he has character issues. I think he took Western way too early, then did all he could to get out of it. I still want to know what the big family "crisis" was that made the Western decommit a necessity. Because the long term proof of that is certainly suspect now. I think bright lights and big city (in terms of UK basketball) came calling and a guy of that character took it and ran. That's my perception, my reality --- for now.

Brad's history here also had to have a lot to do with his inability to get back into the head coaching gig this past year. If I'm a program with designs on getting my fair share of the CBS wealth, I can't see many good reasons to hire this guy. He doesn't strike me as Joe Personality. His style is not that entertaining. His recruiting efforts are so-so. His pedigree is not what I would call regal. to me, he's not even in the up-and-comer file but more retread. I can't see a one-year stopover at Loras doing him any good in the long run either. Better get used to Loras and like it a lot if you ask me.

It all comes back to me, once again, being thankful that I don't have to rest my livelihood on the decisions of a bunch of children. In my grand ranking scheme of the coaches I have had an association with at SLU, BS is middle to low end of the pack. Grawer, Spoon, and Romar are above him. Coleman and Albrect are below him. And Ekker is the always bottom feeder. The jury is out on Majerus. End of next year begins the real hard marking period for our HOFer.

In course grades, Brad gets a C to a C-minus. If it were Pass/Fail, I'd fail him. He got fired. The SLU GraveYard of Coaches strikes again.

[slufanskip]

I think you have to do the first part that question before you can do the 2nd part, you know crawl before you can walk. I would like for SLU to make it every year, but I think they have to do it recruiting from the inside out. It does bother me when other schools on the same level or better than SLU make the 1st offers to players that SLU has more of an opportunity to see on a regular basis. I'm not referring to either coach in this instance. I understand that Majerus can pull some national recruits so I'm a little more patient and I see he landed a nice coup today.

Do you have political aspirations? You didn't answer the question, would you prefer SLU take local kids, even if it limited how good they could be?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but if you are trumping a guy that SLU should offer, I'd be curious to know if that's because you think he can make SLU better or if it's because he's a local kid and you have stated that your goal is to help local kids play college basketball. I don't think SLU. with RM as the coach should go after any kid that doesn't have the potential to be a pivotal part of a top 25 team.

[slufanskip]

The myth I want to erase is that Josh made some magical transformation from the fall to the summer that took him only good enough for Western Illinois to him being good enough to play for Kentucky. Josh was always a very good basketball player. He was good enough to have had an offer from SLU and be a primary target heading into his senior season. The argument is often made that Brad was chasing other guys like Pullen and wanted to keep scholarships for them, but he was never one to run out of scholarships, so I dont understand why Harrellson occupying one of those scholarship with a commitment would keep him from getting Pullen and co. Many argued with me over and over that he couldnt be that good or he wouldn't have just had an offer from WIU. The argument was made that if Brad was missing out, so were a lot of other coaches and over 300 coaches couldnt be wrong. I kept explaining that Josh's AAU team didnt do much traveling so he wasnt seen. If someone didnt go to a local AAU tourney, which are rare or to see St. Charles High play, they didnt see Josh Harrellson play. The part that was crazy was that when I told some people to go to some St Charles games and see for themselves, they told me that they didnt need to see because his only was from WIU. I hope this kind of logic now out the window on this board.

I agree with this, but STLHI ... the reason no one listened to what you had to say is, you were like the boy who cried wolf at that time. You promoted everyone ...

With that said, I have to admit, I think you've changed and now make more clear your thoughts on a player. I'm glad to see you posting again more frequently.

[STL Hoops Insider]

Do you have political aspirations? You didn't answer the question, would you prefer SLU take local kids, even if it limited how good they could be?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but if you are trumping a guy that SLU should offer, I'd be curious to know if that's because you think he can make SLU better or if it's because he's a local kid and you have stated that your goal is to help local kids play college basketball. I don't think SLU. with RM as the coach should go after any kid that doesn't have the potential to be a pivotal part of a top 25 team.

I did answer your question. I'm not saying take local kids for the sake of taking local kids. I'm saying recruit the top talents in your area. Its not going to limit you as a program. Its easier for a smaller program like SLU to get local recruits than national recruits. Saint Louis is a big enough city with enough talent to build a consistent winner with homegrown guys. Consistently getting the top local guys and sprinkling in an a couple of out of area guys will allow the Billikens to move forward. If SLU could just go out of area and pick and choose who they wanted to make the tournament every year I wouldn't have a problem with them doing so, but they can't and no one outside of a power conference can. Cuonzo Martin, a proven national recruiter has been at Missouri State for less than 6 months and already has 3 Saint Louis area commits. Chris Lowery at SIU has 3 Saint Louis area guys on his roster now and already has a 2009 commitment from the area. There is plenty of talent already here and SLU gets the first chance to see it by proximity and no other D1's in the city.

[slufanskip]

Well said v, one of your best posts.

except that .... at that time, those weren't the only players that didn't go to SLU that STLHI suggested SLU should be recruiting ... there were far to many to count.

STLHI has become imo a valuable member of the board, and has done a better job of being clear on what he thinks of players ... ie is this a player SLU should notice and possibly watch, or is it a player they should immediately offer. But, in the past that wasn't the case ... I would assume that as he's grown and watched more basketball than most of us at the HS level, his eye for where a player fits in has improved. His is an opinion I've come to value now, and hope he is more active on the board with evaluations and his thoughts on players.

[slufanskip]

I did answer your question. I'm not saying take local kids for the sake of taking local kids. I'm saying recruit the top talents in your area. Its not going to limit you as a program. Its easier for a smaller program like SLU to get local recruits than national recruits. Saint Louis is a big enough city with enough talent to build a consistent winner with homegrown guys. Consistently getting the top local guys and sprinkling in an a couple of out of area guys will allow the Billikens to move forward. If SLU could just go out of area and pick and choose who they wanted to make the tournament every year I wouldn't have a problem with them doing so, but they can't and no one outside of a power conference can. Cuonzo Martin, a proven national recruiter has been at Missouri State for less than 6 months and already has 3 Saint Louis area commits. Chris Lowery at SIU has 3 Saint Louis area guys on his roster now and already has a 2009 commitment from the area. There is plenty of talent already here and SLU gets the first chance to see it by proximity and no other D1's in the city.

very good. I understand you to say, you want SLU to recruit all the local kids that are good enough, but if they aren't SLU should pass. I agree .... with your stated mission of helping kids get college looks, I was unsure as how to take your reccomendations.

[Taj79]

I'ver disagreed long and hard on your assessment of the local talent --- not the individuals, but in the statement that, "St. Louis is a big enough city with enough talent ......" Such a statement goes contrary to the national assessments of St. Louis as a hoops talent hotbed. Its just not that good enough year after year to compete with not ony the talent beds of NYC, DC, Memphis, Houston, LA, Chicago, Detroit and others, but it even fails in comparison with lesser cities like Cincinnati, Louisville, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Seattle and then some. I'm not saying each of those is a lesser or greater city, its just that more consistent talent has been proven to come out of those places far and above the level produced by St. Louis. I've read that in enough places to believe it, frankly. The list of St. Louis kids playing major college ball and contributing is extremely low in my opinion. It may not be right or correct, but when I think of hoop hotbeds, St. Louis has never come to mind.

I understand Lowery and Martin getting kids, I think a lot of kids want to get away and both Carbondale and Springfield are not that far away in those terms. It works out well. And both arugable have a better recent record than we do. And both play in a conference that the local recruits know and have heard of. I'd argue more in St. Louis know where to find Wichita State and know what their mascot is over and above where St. Bonaventure is and who the heck they are. This is an old, unwinnable argument so I'll drop it.

Here's the next question. Each regime has had its "golden class." Grawer had Gray, Douglas and Bonner. Then he got Claggs, Hmark, and Winfield. Spoon played that out and then got Hughes, Baniak, and Tatum. Brad got Lisch, Liddell, Polk and Meyer. Now Majerus has rung in with at least John and Thompson from this area. We all know how the first ones played out. Not too well in the consistent long run. What does Majerus follow up with? Does he beat the past records and continue upward. Or is it one and done here as well? In your list of players (much appreciated by the way, I like watching what happens with your insights), I don't see anyone in there (sans Anderson mayber) who might be a legit prospect. Remember --- I don't live there so I don't know the enitre inside out on these guys. But I haven't heard anyone mentioned by name like I have in the past --- Roundtree, Booker, John, Suggs, Griffey, Hansborough, Miles, Hughes, McKinney, kern, etc, etc.

I think Majerus can see the diamond in the rough. If he's going for none of these guys as our targets, well, in Rick I trust, I guess.

[STL Hoops Insider]

I agree with this, but STLHI ... the reason no one listened to what you had to say is, you were like the boy who cried wolf at that time. You promoted everyone ...

With that said, I have to admit, I think you've changed and now make more clear your thoughts on a player. I'm glad to see you posting again more frequently.

Thanks, its good to be back.

[3star_recruit]

Then, he even begged for a scholarship the day RM was hired. Thereafter, he made many public statements about SLU being his favorite and, by all accounts, was coming to SLU until Kentucky came in late, his eyes got large and picked them over us.

I think you're confusing message board rumors and parroting of Frank C.'s optimism on his radio show with facts. Harrellson never made a public statement that we were the favorite.

As to Stemler, the posts and stories I read indicated that he was clearly leaning to SLU until IU came in at the end. We again came in second place.

Same deal as above.

We also came in second for the Peterson kid.

That may be true but that doesn't mean he was ever leaning toward us. That was just the prevailing hope on this board.

What public statements are you suggesting?

Your post is a public statement. A kid being quoted by the local paper is a public statement. They can be attributed directly to the person in question. Hearsay cannot.

While he may have liked playing for Brad and while he was often our best player, his play was too soft to play much post SLU.

Eh? The leading rebounding guard in the nation and the guy who got hammered repeatedly on his drives to the lane is too "soft?"

TL controlled Brad and Brad went along.

We are talking about the same coach who TL respected enough to allow him to reconstruct his jump shot. Who played the 4 without complaint because his coach needed him there. Maybe Brad did let some stuff slide (again, hearsay) but he also demands a lot from his stars.

No doubt TL has flaws in his game -- loose with the ball, average on defense -- but if he didn't he wouldn't be at SLU. Ironically, even after four years under Majerus, Keith Van Horn wasn't even an average defender.

[slufanskip]

I think you're confusing message board rumors and parroting of Frank C.'s optimism on his radio show with facts. Harrellson never made a public statement that we were the favorite.

Same deal as above.

That may be true but that doesn't mean he was ever leaning toward us. That was just the prevailing hope on this board.

Your post is a public statement. A kid being quoted by the local paper is a public statement. They can be attributed directly to the person in question. Hearsay cannot.

Eh? The leading rebounding guard in the nation and the guy who got hammered repeatedly on his drives to the lane is too "soft?"

We are talking about the same coach who TL respected enough to allow him to reconstruct his jump shot. Who played the 4 without complaint because his coach needed him there. Maybe Brad did let some stuff slide (again, hearsay) but he also demands a lot from his stars.

No doubt TL has flaws in his game -- loose with the ball, average on defense -- but if he didn't he wouldn't be at SLU. Ironically, even after four years under Majerus, Keith Van Horn wasn't even an average defender.

I agree, it seems pretty often that if someone says they heard something on the board, it quickly becomes Gospel for the next 5 years.

There are some people who have proven over time, that when they make a statement it's correct, but on the most part ...