Grawer & Clayon High School

[kevinfootes]

Someone asked why Grawer would have taken the Clayton AD job rather than getting back into coaching (sorry, I can't remember which thread). People might not realize it, but the Clayton AD job was the highest-paying high school athletics job in StL at that time (it might still be). I think Grawer started out making about $115K. When you work in his money from camps and a few other things, he was doing pretty well. I think he was around 50 years old at the time, and a good-paying high school job was probably more attractive than moving his family to some place like Macomb.

[Iggy]

I always thought that Grawer would have made a great NBA assistant coach. He was really good with X's and O's.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Someone asked why Grawer would have taken the Clayton AD job rather than getting back into coaching (sorry, I can't remember which thread). People might not realize it, but the Clayton AD job was the highest-paying high school athletics job in StL at that time (it might still be). I think Grawer started out making about $115K. When you work in his money from camps and a few other things, he was doing pretty well. I think he was around 50 years old at the time, and a good-paying high school job was probably more attractive than moving his family to some place like Macomb.

It was my question. Thanks. Did not know Clayton job payed that well. I don't blame him.

Also, he was SLU's coach for a decade, probably developed a lot nice contacts (like HS coaches and business/civic leaders), which helped in making his summer camps and other interests a success.

I recall when David started the first Billiken message board back in the early to mid 90's, we had similar discussions on the Spoon vs Grawer. I for one would like Grawer to be honored on his contribution to Billiken Basketball. But I can understand he would probably never accept that till Bondi retires.

[BIG BILL FAN]

Someone asked why Grawer would have taken the Clayton AD job rather than getting back into coaching (sorry, I can't remember which thread). People might not realize it, but the Clayton AD job was the highest-paying high school athletics job in StL at that time (it might still be). I think Grawer started out making about $115K. When you work in his money from camps and a few other things, he was doing pretty well. I think he was around 50 years old at the time, and a good-paying high school job was probably more attractive than moving his family to some place like Macomb.

Not so, I'm sure Floyd Irons made more. After all, did Rich get to keep the gate receipts? Rich Grawer is a great man, I wish some how they would have a Rich Grawer night at a SLU game. Unfortunately it will probably never happen.

[Iggy]

I wish some how they would have a Rich Grawer night at a SLU game. Unfortunately it will probably never happen.

They could honor him at halftime of a game when Fr. Biondi is off in Europe buying art.

[billiken_roy]

People might not realize it, but the Clayton AD job was the highest-paying high school athletics job in StL at that time (it might still be). I think Grawer started out making about $115K.

well if you count no uniform extortion dollar days, floyd was miles ahead of that.

[GOSLU68]

well if you count no uniform extortion dollar days, floyd was miles ahead of that.

I was there in the old Keil when Rich was collecting a buck for each seat filled and cheered him on-but something happened to change my mind when

I saw Clagget sit on the bench his freshman year much of the time so Winfield and Grawer could have their kids play ahead of him. 5-23 his final year

and the way he treated big Mel Robinson and Carlos Skinner also showed a man who did not understand Big Man play. He thought they were there to

rebound and get the ball back to the guards; Grawer ran the same type of game as Spoon but Charlie got more junk dog defensive guard play out of

his kids than Grawer. Let Skinnner, Robinson, and Clagget decide if we should have a day for Rich- or even Monroe Douglas who was still in his doghouse so much his senior year that Roland Gray overtook him as the leading scorer. We all have different opinions on this one.

[slu72 fan]

I was there in the old Keil when Rich was collecting a buck for each seat filled and cheered him on-but something happened to change my mind when

I saw Clagget sit on the bench his freshman year much of the time so Winfield and Grawer could have their kids play ahead of him. 5-23 his final year

and the way he treated big Mel Robinson and Carlos Skinner also showed a man who did not understand Big Man play. He thought they were there to

rebound and get the ball back to the guards; Grawer ran the same type of game as Spoon but Charlie got more junk dog defensive guard play out of

his kids than Grawer. Let Skinnner, Robinson, and Clagget decide if we should have a day for Rich- or even Monroe Douglas who was still in his doghouse so much his senior year that Roland Gray overtook him as the leading scorer. We all have different opinions on this one.

Think what you want about Rich, but he probably saved Billiken basketball as a D-1 sport. Based on your name, you were around in the late seventies and early eighties when a big crowd was 2,500. You're right his last season was 5-23, but he started at least 4, and sometimes 5 freshmen. Spoon was a terrific coach, but he did it with RG's players. By the way, I don't remember Clags sitting on the bench, so Rich's son could play. In fact, he wasn't on the team. And I'm pretty sure he was able to coach a couple of big men named Bonner and Stipanovich. Douglas was an exciting player, with a terrific midrange game and great hops. But, Roland was a player. Did it all. Great passer, score inside or out and strong rebounder. Wish we had either of them today. And the fact that Gray passed him the last game or two, doesn't mean anything, other than they were both great Billikens. RG was tough, but he knows his Bball. I hope his retirement is great. By the way, I crossed paths with him several times when I was officiating Clayton games, and he's as classy an AD as I met.

[brianstl]

Grawer had his problems at the end, but Grawer could coach big men. He got a lot out some guys that had very little talent at the five and the four. He was respected by his peers for his ability with big men. The Chill and Skinner were idiots. The Chill never lived up to his ability at Arizona and was a waste of a roster spot in the NBA. He was one of the dumbest people ever to put on a Billiken uniform. He was on the mental level of a seven year old and behaved liked one. Randey Pulley was a Rhodes Scholar compared to him. I will never understand how he got in to SLU a couple years after they wouldn't let in Upchurch. He had talent, but he did not understand the game at all. He spent more time watching cartoons than he ever did working on his game.

[billiken_roy]

Think what you want about Rich, but he probably saved Billiken basketball as a D-1 sport. Based on your name, you were around in the late seventies and early eighties when a big crowd was 2,500. You're right his last season was 5-23, but he started at least 4, and sometimes 5 freshmen. Spoon was a terrific coach, but he did it with RG's players. By the way, I don't remember Clags sitting on the bench, so Rich's son could play. In fact, he wasn't on the team. And I'm pretty sure he was able to coach a couple of big men named Bonner and Stipanovich. Douglas was an exciting player, with a terrific midrange game and great hops. But, Roland was a player. Did it all. Great passer, score inside or out and strong rebounder. Wish we had either of them today. And the fact that Gray passed him the last game or two, doesn't mean anything, other than they were both great Billikens. RG was tough, but he knows his Bball. I hope his retirement is great. By the way, I crossed paths with him several times when I was officiating Clayton games, and he's as classy an AD as I met.

claggett indeed was a freshman on grawer's last team and played little for most of the season. the last 1/4 of the year claggett saw more time.

[Box and Won]

well if you count no uniform extortion dollar days, floyd was miles ahead of that.

And real estate scams.

[billiken_roy]

And real estate scams.

well i was thinking stictly of income from school related "work".

[slu72 fan]

claggett indeed was a freshman on grawer's last team and played little for most of the season. the last 1/4 of the year claggett saw more time.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I don't remember Clags sitting on the bench, so Rich's son could play. In fact, he wasn't on the team.

Erwin Claggett did come off the bench (behind Julian Winfield) as a freshman. His minutes increased after McGlother Irvin left the squad, and he was instant offense. Rich Grawer's son, Kevin, was indeed on the team, but he didn't play much in 1991-92. He was a redshirt freshman at the time. He transferred to Tulsa after his dad was fired from SLU.

[kevinfootes]

I was there in the old Keil when Rich was collecting a buck for each seat filled and cheered him on-but something happened to change my mind when

I saw Clagget sit on the bench his freshman year much of the time so Winfield and Grawer could have their kids play ahead of him. 5-23 his final year

and the way he treated big Mel Robinson and Carlos Skinner also showed a man who did not understand Big Man play. He thought they were there to

rebound and get the ball back to the guards; Grawer ran the same type of game as Spoon but Charlie got more junk dog defensive guard play out of

his kids than Grawer. Let Skinnner, Robinson, and Clagget decide if we should have a day for Rich- or even Monroe Douglas who was still in his doghouse so much his senior year that Roland Gray overtook him as the leading scorer. We all have different opinions on this one.

If you knew Robinson or Skinner, you wouldn't feel sorry for them. You obviously didn't get to know these guys the way that some of us who were students at the time did. Let me get this straight...you want to let players who left the program decide who should be honored?

[kmbilliken]

Grawer could coach and was doing an excellent job building the program when the administration pulled the rug out from underneath him by not letting Upchurch in school. Upchurch qualified academically, but that wasn't go enough so they told him he had to pass the summer bridge program to get in. That was a program for underpriviledged students that didn't otherwise qualify to show they academic and gain admission. He road the bus to the summer program and passed it, but they still didn't let him in. That wrecked Grawer's ability to recuit the city at a time when he was getting the best players from the PHL. He got Bonner the year before and Douglas and Gray the year before that. He never recovered recruitingwise until the Highmark, Claggett, Winfield (and a kid from Effingham) year. Then he never got the chance to build on that. With Biondi refusing to extend his contract how could he recruit in his last year if he's not signed for the next year?

Grawer saved this program and then got the shaft.

[GOSLU68]

Grawer had his problems at the end, but Grawer could coach big men. He got a lot out some guys that had very little talent at the five and the four. He was respected by his peers for his ability with big men. The Chill and Skinner were idiots. The Chill never lived up to his ability at Arizona and was a waste of a roster spot in the NBA. He was one of the dumbest people ever to put on a Billiken uniform. He was on the mental level of a seven year old and behaved liked one. Randey Pulley was a Rhodes Scholar compared to him. I will never understand how he got in to SLU a couple years after they wouldn't let in Upchurch. He had talent, but he did not understand the game at all. He spent more time watching cartoons than he ever did working on his game.

I believe upchurch and robinson graduatied high school together and were a great in out combination; Robinson was serious about his studies in high

school and was able to get in because of his ACT scores; Grawer got upchurch connected with Houston so they owe us one. Clagget sat behind Winfield which is what Grawer had promised to his dad and fellow coach Lee who was Grawer's best recruiter.Grawer was an unpaid asistant at Missouri before coming to SLu. He did turn the program around but he certainly was no saint in handling talent. kevin Footes the tall man with ball handling skills used to get benched after getting a rebound and dribbling the length of the court for a layup instead of running the plays.

Yes, we suffered through a lot worse-earlier but Grawers best days were when Douglas, Gray, and Bonner were all on the team at the same time; I think I could have coached them and won 18 games they all had great talent even though Douglas did not continue to improve after his Sophomore year, But even at that level he was very exciting. I would take those three over KL, TL, and anyone you want to pick from last year's team or this year's team. If you were going to compare Spoon to Grawer look and see how many times Spoon beat us with his short players from SWMSU or

MO State. Spoon ran pretty much the same offense and defence. Some of this is just my opinion and memory versus yours.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Rich Grawer was the saviour of Billiken Basketball.

He was like Moses- he led us out of despair to the Promised Land, but was never allowed to enter it (NCAA Tournament) himself. He had at least 2 teams that were NCAA worthy, one that finished 25-10 and another that finished 27-10. The latter was the NIT runner-up and should have been in the NCAA Tournament. Although it is true that Charlie Spoonhour provided the complimentary parts, including H Waldman, the two best players on Spoon's first two NCAA teams were Erwin Claggett and Scott Highmark, both Grawer recruits.

Grawer closed the borders in St. Louis and had good control over local recruiting (Monroe Douglass, Roland Gray, Anthony Bonner), at least until the Craig Upchurch admissions fiasco, something I will never understand. Just how many NCAA bids did that Upchurch fiasco cost SLU? He would have been playing right next to Anthony Bonner to counter the 2 bigs that Xavier had in those days.

I remember well when Grawer was hired. SLU was at the bottom of rock bottom, and Grawer built the program from Square 1, including returning the games to Kiel Auditorium, restoring real cheerleaders, and even bringing back the Alumni Trumpeteers.

He should be honored for all he did for the SLU program.

[brianstl]

I believe upchurch and robinson graduatied high school together and were a great in out combination; Robinson was serious about his studies in high

school and was able to get in because of his ACT scores; Grawer got upchurch connected with Houston so they owe us one. Clagget sat behind Winfield which is what Grawer had promised to his dad and fellow coach Lee who was Grawer's best recruiter.Grawer was an unpaid asistant at Missouri before coming to SLu. He did turn the program around but he certainly was no saint in handling talent. kevin Footes the tall man with ball handling skills used to get benched after getting a rebound and dribbling the length of the court for a layup instead of running the plays.

Yes, we suffered through a lot worse-earlier but Grawers best days were when Douglas, Gray, and Bonner were all on the team at the same time; I think I could have coached them and won 18 games they all had great talent even though Douglas did not continue to improve after his Sophomore year, But even at that level he was very exciting. I would take those three over KL, TL, and anyone you want to pick from last year's team or this year's team. If you were going to compare Spoon to Grawer look and see how many times Spoon beat us with his short players from SWMSU or

MO State. Spoon ran pretty much the same offense and defence. Some of this is just my opinion and memory versus yours.

If you don't even know that Robinson and Upchurh graduated in different years, from different high schools, and think Robinson was serious about his studies you don't deserve to comment on this topic at all. Robinson couldn't be serious about his studies. He was dumb as they come. You really have no clue what was going on with the program at that time.

If you, also think that Claggett was ready to play major minutes when he arrived at SLU, you have no basketball knowledge. Claggett was one of the most talented, but also most raw players when he first walked on the campus. You even further validate my point when you state that you would take Douglass over TL or KL. Douglass never had the all-around game or work ethic that Tommie and Kevin have.

[kevinfootes]

If you don't even know that Robinson and Upchurh graduated in different years, from different high schools, and think Robinson was serious about his studies you don't deserve to comment on this topic at all. Robinson couldn't be serious about his studies. He was dumb as they come. You really have no clue what was going on with the program at that time.

If you, also think that Claggett was ready to play major minutes when he arrived at SLU, you have no basketball knowledge. Claggett was one of the most talented, but also most raw players when he first walked on the campus. You even further validate my point when you state that you would take Douglass over TL or KL. Douglass never had the all-around game or work ethic that Tommie and Kevin have.

Upchurch was at least one year older than Melvin, and didn't he go to Beaumont? Mel went to Vashon.

Brian, you must have been at SLU at the same time I was there. We have some similar views on those days. I just don't see how anybody could find one postivie thing to say about Skinner.

[billiken_roy]

character aside, i'd love to have a pf with skinner's rebounding. i dont want the rest of the package from the neck up though.

[brianstl]

Upchurch was at least one year older than Melvin, and didn't he go to Beaumont? Mel went to Vashon.

Brian, you must have been at SLU at the same time I was there. We have some similar views on those days. I just don't see how anybody could find one postivie thing to say about Skinner.

Mel wasn't a bad guy, but Skinner was. Upchurch did go to Beaumont. I am just about certain they were seperated by two years. Malcom Nash was on the same team as The Chill and maybe that is who he is thinking of. Nash ended up at Memphis.

I was not on campus then. I was still a little too young. I did know a lot of people who were on campus at the time. Some of them close to the team.

This guy is giving Grawer a wrap he doesn't deserve. He takes undeserved shots at him about every six months. Grawer's mistake was signing too many kids that turned out to be problems in his last few years. I know he felt pressure to win, but he dug his own grave with some of the guys he signed.

[GOSLU68]

find one postivie thing to say about Skinner.

Rebounder

[GOSLU68]

This guy is giving Grawer a wrap he doesn't deserve. He takes undeserved shots at him about every six months.

I give Rich was a saint and he should have never been fired.

Actually if you want to read my replies they are just that to people who want to re annoint Grawer for sainthood.

I said I cheered him on in the beginning at the old Keil when we could get a different front row seat every year.

There were so few of us and we were happy to see Grawer succeed. it was a low point for me when we went 5-23 after years of success and I was

hoping we someday have his son coach for us like the Meyers of De Paul. But that did not play out, did it?

I just remember Upchurch and Melvin Robinson playing together and it may have been an all star game or some open gym deal of some kind where Upchurch would feed Robinson and Robinson would kick it out for Upchurch to hit the open jumper and was hoping the two ot them would play together at SLU. I really don't understand why it is okay for you to say Grawer signed bad guys at the end I never said he wasn't successful recruiting. I did not personally like his treatment of his players. I thought he was wrong not changing his system to suit the talent of his ball players. As for Clagget playing him earlier instead of JW would have just made him better, quicker in my opinion as wnen he got minutes; he looked good. I thought Grawer was a great step up from the earlier years.

Also I did not say I would take MD instead of TL or KL-look at what I said Give me Bonner, Douglas, and Gray over KL, TL and any third player for the last 5 years; they were the reason for Grawer's great success we have not had many years where we had three really good players. We have two now and I enjoy them very much. I really hope whateve is bothering KL gets better soon he hasn't been the same lately or it has been the defensive

assignments he has drawn-I pointed out that he was having to work through one or two screens to get to Roberts of Dayton

Who would be your third player that would beat my three from the Grawer recruiting years?

[billiken_roy]

to be fair goslu68, adding bonner to any threesome in comparisons is going to be a tough match. bonner = greatness.