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Billiken All Century Team - Vote Grawer


SluSignGuy

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Hickey probably is the best basketball coach SLU ever had. He gets the shaft for quitting SLU to go coach Marquette.

Presumably, you would leave Pujols off your Cardinals all-century team ballot as well?

I'd be interested in hearing what the circumstances were behind his departure...judging by W-L, Polls, and NCAA appearances over the previous decade, Marquette was a lateral move or even a step down at the time.

Was it purely a money thing? Friction within the administration? Did he have a connection to Milwaukee or someone within the administration at Marquette?

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Presumably, you would leave Pujols off your Cardinals all-century team ballot as well?

I'd be interested in hearing what the circumstances were behind his departure...judging by W-L, Polls, and NCAA appearances over the previous decade, Marquette was a lateral move or even a step down at the time.

Was it purely a money thing? Friction within the administration? Did he have a connection to Milwaukee or someone within the administration at Marquette?

If Pujols left to go to the Cubs? Yes.

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If Pujols left to go to the Cubs? Yes.

SLU and Marquette were hardly fierce rivals in the 1950s. It looks like they only played twice during Hickey's 11 year tenure at SLU with the Billikens blowing out Marquette by 69-44 in 1950 and 98-63 in 1952.

It was nothing like the Cards/Cubs rivalry.

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I'm too young to really remember Grawer, but in my opinion a good way to judge his contribution to the program is to look at winning percentages compared to his predecessors:

The 3 coaches before Grawer (Albrecht, Coleman, & Ekker) coached a combined 8 years. They had a combined 76 wins and 138 losses for a winning percentage of 35.5%. Grawer then coached 10 years and went 159-149 for a 51.6% winning percentage. This was a whopping 45.3% improvement over the dregs before him.

Spoon took over for Grawer and went 122-90 over 7 years, 57.5 winning %, only an 11.4% improvement over Grawer.

Brad look the program down a notch over his 5 years, but still had a 51.9 winning %. Majerus (95-68 over 5 years, 58.3 winning %) improved by 12.3%.

Even Eddie Hickey wasn't taking a huge leap ahead of his predecessors (Duford & Flanigan) who went 42-25 over 3 years, 62.7 winning %. Hickey was 211-89 over 11 years, 70.3 winning %, 12.1% improvement.

The winning percentages actually dropped under Bennington and Romar compared to their predecessors (Spoon & Hickey, respectively).

Even if you look at the raw difference instead of % improvement, Grawer still wins at +16.1 (Hickey: +7.6, Majerus: +6.4, Spoon: +5.9).

Obviously this analysis isn't perfect nor am I purporting that it means Grawer was the best coach. It certainly may be easier to take a team from bad to average than average to good. However, being too young to remember, I still find it kind of stunning to look back at how truly awful the Billikens were before Grawer.

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Presumably, you would leave Pujols off your Cardinals all-century team ballot as well?

I'd be interested in hearing what the circumstances were behind his departure...judging by W-L, Polls, and NCAA appearances over the previous decade, Marquette was a lateral move or even a step down at the time.

Was it purely a money thing? Friction within the administration? Did he have a connection to Milwaukee or someone within the administration at Marquette?

Hickey was beginning to struggle recruiting wise in the St. Louis area. Hickey also very much disliked the popularity of the pro game in St. Louis. He didn't want to play second fiddle to the Hawks and Ed Macauley who was coaching the team at the time.

Hickey was very similar to Majerus, a basketball savant but with major personality issues and foot in mouth disease. Huge ego and cared little of what others thought of him. He would routinely cause controversy. Marquette had an opening at the time and was using Hickey as their main consultant. Finding few worthy candidates they simply approached Hickey and he quickly accepted. It was a shock to SLU and St. Louis as a whole. Hickey had some success for a few years but had one dismal season and was fired by Marquette and replaced by Al McGuire. Marquette was most certainly not as prestigious a job but Hickey didn't care.

It is fitting that Majerus ressurected our program, as he is a branch of the Hickey coaching tree. Majerus restored SLU back to teh prominence we enjoyed until Hickey left us.

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I'm too young to really remember Grawer, but in my opinion a good way to judge his contribution to the program is to look at winning percentages compared to his predecessors:

The 3 coaches before Grawer (Albrecht, Coleman, & Ekker) coached a combined 8 years. They had a combined 76 wins and 138 losses for a winning percentage of 35.5%. Grawer then coached 10 years and went 159-149 for a 51.6% winning percentage. This was a whopping 45.3% improvement over the dregs before him.

Spoon took over for Grawer and went 122-90 over 7 years, 57.5 winning %, only an 11.4% improvement over Grawer.

Brad look the program down a notch over his 5 years, but still had a 51.9 winning %. Majerus (95-68 over 5 years, 58.3 winning %) improved by 12.3%.

Even Eddie Hickey wasn't taking a huge leap ahead of his predecessors (Duford & Flanigan) who went 42-25 over 3 years, 62.7 winning %. Hickey was 211-89 over 11 years, 70.3 winning %, 12.1% improvement.

The winning percentages actually dropped under Bennington and Romar compared to their predecessors (Spoon & Hickey, respectively).

Even if you look at the raw difference instead of % improvement, Grawer still wins at +16.1 (Hickey: +7.6, Majerus: +6.4, Spoon: +5.9).

Obviously this analysis isn't perfect nor am I purporting that it means Grawer was the best coach. It certainly may be easier to take a team from bad to average than average to good. However, being too young to remember, I still find it kind of stunning to look back at how truly awful the Billikens were before Grawer.

I agree with this.

Everything being equal Hickey is the all century coach. He is in the basketball HOF. He changed the way the game was played with his 3 man fast break system. No other SLU coach can touch his legacy. Grawer comes in a distant second.

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SLU and Marquette were hardly fierce rivals in the 1950s. It looks like they only played twice during Hickey's 11 year tenure at SLU with the Billikens blowing out Marquette by 69-44 in 1950 and 98-63 in 1952.

It was nothing like the Cards/Cubs rivalry.

And while we're on the subject, the idea of Cards/Cubs being a historical rivalry is largely overblown. They were not considered rivals until TV broadcasts of regular season games became more widely broadcast in the 1970s. The "rivalry" was basically concocted around that time. The Cubs losing on the last day of the season cost the Cardinals a division championship in the early 1970s, and that might have played a minor role, but it's one of the more overrated rivalries in sports. Only the most casual fans in St. Louis and Chicago spend too much time harping on it. Outside of a few brief flashes in the '80s and '00s, the teams have never been contenders at the same time or even played in any truly meaningful games against each other.

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Grawer's first season: 5-23

Grawer's last season: 5-23

He had a nice run, and anyone who didn't experience the awesomeness that was the old Kiel in the late 80s will never understand, but the fact remains he left the program in shambles, and ultimately it was Spoonhour who kept Claggett and Highmark in tow, brought in Dobbs and Waldman and ended the 37 year NCAA tournament drought.

SLU was a national power for 11 years under Hickey. They were ranked #1 under Hickey. He's easily the most successful coach SLU has ever had.

I find it surprising nobody is really talking about just how different college sports was in Hickey's time compared to Grawer's, Spoonhour's, or Majerus'. The NCAA tournament (or even the NIT) when Hickey took SLU there was just an altogether different animal than when Spoonhour or Majerus took them there. That doesn't negate that Hickey clearly had the most on-court success, but it does seem to bear consideration.

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First team

Easy Ed

Bonner - I didn't see him play, but where he ranks on the scoring list and the fact he played in the NBA, he is an obvious choice

Hughes - Yes, only one year, but he shouldn't get penalized for being so exceptional. He single-handedly took a mediocre team to the NCAA Tourney.

Claggett

Unless I am missing somebody obvious, this last spot is tough. Not as familiar with the older players - I'm torn between Kwamain and Jordair. JJ had an exceptional season, but I guess KM gets a slight nod for overall career. Both players were key in a lot of winning.

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I had a slightly different remembering of this story when I was a student but this is why I am not voting for Grawer:

St. Louis University basketball coach Rich Grawer was asked to speak to an eighth-grade class at a Catholic school. As Grawer tells it, the nun who extended the invitation said, "I don't want you to talk about basketball. Just talk about life, maturity and growing up." So Grawer then told the kids, "The fun and excitement of childhood are nothing compared to the fun and excitement of becoming a teenager, which are nothing compared to the fun and excitement of adultery." Grawer later reported innocently, "The nun just about fell out of the chair."

Seriously, SLU played at a very different level in 80's (their overall SOS was really weak) and their success was important but at a very different level. I am always surprised how people forget that.

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Hickey was beginning to struggle recruiting wise in the St. Louis area. Hickey also very much disliked the popularity of the pro game in St. Louis. He didn't want to play second fiddle to the Hawks and Ed Macauley who was coaching the team at the time.

Hickey was very similar to Majerus, a basketball savant but with major personality issues and foot in mouth disease. Huge ego and cared little of what others thought of him. He would routinely cause controversy. Marquette had an opening at the time and was using Hickey as their main consultant. Finding few worthy candidates they simply approached Hickey and he quickly accepted. It was a shock to SLU and St. Louis as a whole. Hickey had some success for a few years but had one dismal season and was fired by Marquette and replaced by Al McGuire. Marquette was most certainly not as prestigious a job but Hickey didn't care.

It is fitting that Majerus ressurected our program, as he is a branch of the Hickey coaching tree. Majerus restored SLU back to teh prominence we enjoyed until Hickey left us.

Thank you for the insight.

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Hickey was beginning to struggle recruiting wise in the St. Louis area. Hickey also very much disliked the popularity of the pro game in St. Louis. He didn't want to play second fiddle to the Hawks and Ed Macauley who was coaching the team at the time.

Hickey was very similar to Majerus, a basketball savant but with major personality issues and foot in mouth disease. Huge ego and cared little of what others thought of him. He would routinely cause controversy. Marquette had an opening at the time and was using Hickey as their main consultant. Finding few worthy candidates they simply approached Hickey and he quickly accepted. It was a shock to SLU and St. Louis as a whole. Hickey had some success for a few years but had one dismal season and was fired by Marquette and replaced by Al McGuire. Marquette was most certainly not as prestigious a job but Hickey didn't care.

It is fitting that Majerus ressurected our program, as he is a branch of the Hickey coaching tree. Majerus restored SLU back to teh prominence we enjoyed until Hickey left us.

Nice description of Hickey.

Didn't Marquette get McGuire from a Belmont Abby? A small Catholic school outside Charlotte. Also, no one heard of him prior to his hiring at Marquette. Now Al's brother Dick, was prominent guard in the NBA at the time, which probably helped him get his foot in the door.

Not mentioned is Bennington, who was a very good coach for the Bills.

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As far as the players go...

Bonner and Macauley are essentially locks, and should be on every ballot.

If you saw a future NBA player play while you attended SLU, I would expect you to put him on your ballot. Rogers, Burns, Hughes, etc...

I'd like someone older than me to size up Claggett vs Gray. The consensus seems to be Claggett, but there's a natural bias towards the more recent player (see all the votes for Lisch).

All you Lisch voters should remember he was 1-9 with 2 points in the 49-20 game.

I like Jett at PG, but cede that Waldman, Mitchell, or Burns would be fine choice.

Any player who made 1st team all conference is a defensible vote.

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I'm too young to really remember Grawer, but in my opinion a good way to judge his contribution to the program is to look at winning percentages compared to his predecessors:

The 3 coaches before Grawer (Albrecht, Coleman, & Ekker) coached a combined 8 years. They had a combined 76 wins and 138 losses for a winning percentage of 35.5%. Grawer then coached 10 years and went 159-149 for a 51.6% winning percentage. This was a whopping 45.3% improvement over the dregs before him.

Spoon took over for Grawer and went 122-90 over 7 years, 57.5 winning %, only an 11.4% improvement over Grawer.

Brad look the program down a notch over his 5 years, but still had a 51.9 winning %. Majerus (95-68 over 5 years, 58.3 winning %) improved by 12.3%.

Even Eddie Hickey wasn't taking a huge leap ahead of his predecessors (Duford & Flanigan) who went 42-25 over 3 years, 62.7 winning %. Hickey was 211-89 over 11 years, 70.3 winning %, 12.1% improvement.

The winning percentages actually dropped under Bennington and Romar compared to their predecessors (Spoon & Hickey, respectively).

Even if you look at the raw difference instead of % improvement, Grawer still wins at +16.1 (Hickey: +7.6, Majerus: +6.4, Spoon: +5.9).

Obviously this analysis isn't perfect nor am I purporting that it means Grawer was the best coach. It certainly may be easier to take a team from bad to average than average to good. However, being too young to remember, I still find it kind of stunning to look back at how truly awful the Billikens were before Grawer.

You are really giving the guy who followed Ron Erker too much credit. Erker was trending the Bills to leave division I basketball

and Grawer played in the poorest leagues we could get into. Greatest Billiken coach has to be judged not what you did before or after being with SLU. Hickey and Majerus and then Spoon. Bennington was a great coach in the minds of basketball as well.

Grawer couldn't work with talent. He had Claggett on the bench his freshman year so that the two coaches sons could play. Kevin Footes was among the most talented to come to SLU during that time-he would bench him for getting rebounds and dribbling down the court and dunking the ball. At six foot 9 Grawer believed he should pass to a guard to set up a play. I voted

for Boushka, Ferry, Easy Ed Mc Cauley for All American status. I added Larry Hughes because he was the real deal who stayed

home and made Spoonhauer's other recruits play much better. I finished with Gray over Bonner but it was a hard choice. Bonner could not shoot a jump shot and Gray played like a guard and play maker. They played at the same time so I was able to compare. Another day I might pick Bonner instead. Definitely, Grawer getting Douglas, Gray, and Bonner to all come to SLU

when we have always had trouble attracting local talent was the real appeal for Grawer to have any consideration-as a recruiter not as a coach. Crews, I think we will have to wait and see. He played the hand left him by Majerus well and he has recruited some nice talent. If Tatum's son comes to SLU he may make us all believe in Jim Crews. That would be nice. I like his approach

to this years young talent-giving them all a chance is certainly different than last year's team where seniority mattered. I think he comes to games well prepared. I am not convinced he can see the floor like Majerus did or make adjustments during the game or at half time. I hope he does and I hope he can. It is definitely easier to vote for someone after they are finished than during. Grawer going 5-23 and getting fired in his last year certainly ruined his chances. I thought it was great when Grawer got paid a dollar for every fan in the seats if that story was true.

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For a team that would actually play together:

Starters: Mitchell, Claggett, Hughes, Evans, Bonner

Bench: McCall, Jett, Lisch, Highmark, Waldman, Ellis, Conklin, Vouyoukas

Coach: Majerus

Evans, Bonner, and a bunch of shooters. Vouyoukas and Conklin to spell Bonner.

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As far as the players go...

Bonner and Macauley are essentially locks, and should be on every ballot.

If you saw a future NBA player play while you attended SLU, I would expect you to put him on your ballot. Rogers, Burns, Hughes, etc...

I'd like someone older than me to size up Claggett vs Gray. The consensus seems to be Claggett, but there's a natural bias towards the more recent player (see all the votes for Lisch).

All you Lisch voters should remember he was 1-9 with 2 points in the 49-20 game.

I like Jett at PG, but cede that Waldman, Mitchell, or Burns would be fine choice.

Any player who made 1st team all conference is a defensible vote.

Ok

Claggett 16.5 ppg, .421 FG%, .412 3FG% with over 700 attempts, 78% from the line, 3 boards, 3 assists. Along with Hughes, Burns, Jett, Mckinney, Rogers, and Douglas among the best 1 on 1 players in SLU history. Rarely got to the basket, shot 3s or shaked his man and got an open 15 footer. Played on some of the best Bills teams in recent history and was the best player on those teams. Defense was so so and he could have been in better shape. Made 3 1st team all Great Midwest teams, quite an accomplishment considering the high level of players in that conference. He may be the leading scorer in the league's history.

Gray 14.6 ppg, .509 FG% .457 3FG% 70% from the line, 6.3 rebounds per game, 2 assists. On a short list of do everything Billiken players with Evans, Rogers, Boushka. Was great at nothing, was very good at everything. Could play 3 spots on the floor. Underrated defender. Not a volume shooter like Claggett, but still ranks as the best 3 point shooter in Billikens history. Spent a lot of time scoring on the block as well and was a great rebounder, just happened to play 3 years with 1 of the few Billikens who was a better rebounder. His teams were very good but not great and his junior year was a debacle. Team finished .500 but should have won 25-30 games, one of the worst performing teams in Billikens history and Roland has to carry some of that. Along with Jett only player in Billikens history who has a 30 point game, a 10 rebound game, and a 10 assist game. Made the MCC all freshman team and a 2nd team all MCC.

Claggs and Gray are entirely different players, overall I give a definite edge to Claggett. He's a top 10 Billiken all time, maybe top 5. Gray is a top 20 player. Claggett is the protoypical college 2 guard, just slightly undersized. I would rank him only behind Hughes as a Billiken shooting guard and if you factor in body of work I'd give the edge to Claggett. Gray was the classic tweener but with an added dimension that he could shoot lights out from the perimeter and was an excellent passer. Still he's a small forward to me and I would rank him behind Rogers, Boushka, and Evans all time.

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For a team that would actually play together:

Starters: Mitchell, Claggett, Hughes, Evans, Bonner

Bench: McCall, Jett, Lisch, Highmark, Waldman, Ellis, Conklin, Vouyoukas

Coach: Majerus

Evans, Bonner, and a bunch of shooters. Vouyoukas and Conklin to spell Bonner.

Even with some heavyweight scorers on that team, it would still be all about Hughes. Another funny thing considering Bonner, Conklin, Ian, and Evans were all shorter than they were listed a legit 6'8 Ellis and his blue hair is probably the tallest player on that team.

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Ok

Claggett 16.5 ppg, .421 FG%, .412 3FG% with over 700 attempts, 78% from the line, 3 boards, 3 assists. Along with Hughes, Burns, Jett, Mckinney, Rogers, and Douglas among the best 1 on 1 players in SLU history. Rarely got to the basket, shot 3s or shaked his man and got an open 15 footer. Played on some of the best Bills teams in recent history and was the best player on those teams. Defense was so so and he could have been in better shape. Made 3 1st team all Great Midwest teams, quite an accomplishment considering the high level of players in that conference. He may be the leading scorer in the league's history.

Gray 14.6 ppg, .509 FG% .457 3FG% 70% from the line, 6.3 rebounds per game, 2 assists. On a short list of do everything Billiken players with Evans, Rogers, Boushka. Was great at nothing, was very good at everything. Could play 3 spots on the floor. Underrated defender. Not a volume shooter like Claggett, but still ranks as the best 3 point shooter in Billikens history. Spent a lot of time scoring on the block as well and was a great rebounder, just happened to play 3 years with 1 of the few Billikens who was a better rebounder. His teams were very good but not great and his junior year was a debacle. Team finished .500 but should have won 25-30 games, one of the worst performing teams in Billikens history and Roland has to carry some of that. Along with Jett only player in Billikens history who has a 30 point game, a 10 rebound game, and a 10 assist game. Made the MCC all freshman team and a 2nd team all MCC.

Claggs and Gray are entirely different players, overall I give a definite edge to Claggett. He's a top 10 Billiken all time, maybe top 5. Gray is a top 20 player. Claggett is the protoypical college 2 guard, just slightly undersized. I would rank him only behind Hughes as a Billiken shooting guard and if you factor in body of work I'd give the edge to Claggett. Gray was the classic tweener but with an added dimension that he could shoot lights out from the perimeter and was an excellent passer. Still he's a small forward to me and I would rank him behind Rogers, Boushka, and Evans all time.

Awesome breakdown. Thanks!

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Nice description of Hickey.

Didn't Marquette get McGuire from a Belmont Abby? A small Catholic school outside Charlotte. Also, no one heard of him prior to his hiring at Marquette. Now Al's brother Dick, was prominent guard in the NBA at the time, which probably helped him get his foot in the door.

Not mentioned is Bennington, who was a very good coach for the Bills.

Dick was one of the best lead guards in the NBA in the 50s. Al was no slouch either. He played for 4 years in the NBA.

Al wasn't altogether unheard of. He had been an assistant at Dartmouth and you are right, he had tons of basketball connections, especially in NYC. He had a large amount of success at Belmont Abbey but his final two seasons there were dismal. Marquette interviewed over 30 candidates for their HC opening and Mcguire won out, partly by getting Hank Raymonds to stay on as an Asst. His NYC recruiting connections were legendary. He put Marquette in the conversation with every player on the East Coast. He also had that arrogant way about him, when he would find out a kid he liked wasn't interested before he made contact he would send that kid a letter thanking him for his interest but the Marquette program didn't need him. Made his brand look better to kids than it really was. Hickey had a lot of problems the last couple season in Marquette and Al recruited so well that his first game he coached at Marquette he lost, the freshman team beat the varsity squad by 4 points in an exhibition.

Bennington certainly gets overlooked. The MVC was so tough when he was coach. In 60-61 for instance there 5 of 7 teams ranked from the MVC. Only 1 team could make the NCAAs. The MVC had a team in the final 4 6 out of the 7 years Bennington was coach. They also had a team in the finals of the NIT 4 of the 7 seasons. Bennington just couldn't pull off an MVC title but undoubtedly his teams were among the best in the country. The 60-61 team that lost to Providence in the NIT finals may have been the best Billikens squad ever and was final four material except they couldn't win their conference. They blew out National Champion Cincinnati on the road and also beat NCAA tourney teams UK, Houston, and St Johns. Bennington's teams didn't have a ton of star power save for Ferry his first year. His teams were built on quality depth.

Here are couple short videos of Bennington teams.

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Dick was one of the best lead guards in the NBA in the 50s. Al was no slouch either. He played for 4 years in the NBA.

Al wasn't altogether unheard of. He had been an assistant at Dartmouth and you are right, he had tons of basketball connections, especially in NYC. He had a large amount of success at Belmont Abbey but his final two seasons there were dismal. Marquette interviewed over 30 candidates for their HC opening and Mcguire won out, partly by getting Hank Raymonds to stay on as an Asst. His NYC recruiting connections were legendary. He put Marquette in the conversation with every player on the East Coast. He also had that arrogant way about him, when he would find out a kid he liked wasn't interested before he made contact he would send that kid a letter thanking him for his interest but the Marquette program didn't need him. Made his brand look better to kids than it really was. Hickey had a lot of problems the last couple season in Marquette and Al recruited so well that his first game he coached at Marquette he lost, the freshman team beat the varsity squad by 4 points in an exhibition.

Bennington certainly gets overlooked. The MVC was so tough when he was coach. In 60-61 for instance there 5 of 7 teams ranked from the MVC. Only 1 team could make the NCAAs. The MVC had a team in the final 4 6 out of the 7 years Bennington was coach. They also had a team in the finals of the NIT 4 of the 7 seasons. Bennington just couldn't pull off an MVC title but undoubtedly his teams were among the best in the country. The 60-61 team that lost to Providence in the NIT finals may have been the best Billikens squad ever and was final four material except they couldn't win their conference. They blew out National Champion Cincinnati on the road and also beat NCAA tourney teams UK, Houston, and St Johns. Bennington's teams didn't have a ton of star power save for Ferry his first year. His teams were built on quality depth.

Here are couple short videos of Bennington teams.

Thanks Torch.

I grew up on Long Island and attended all the NITs from 65-70. Didn't go back till the 2 the Bills were in in the late 80s. I recall that 1970 NIT when McGuire took Marquette to the NIT then go to the NCAA. That NIT Final included St John's, Bobby Knight's Army, LSU with Pete Maravich and Marquette, who won it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Per Durando's preview, 16 players and 3 coaches will be named to the All-Century team. Not that I'm disappointed as I felt like a lot of guys deserve recognition, but I guess I just thought that the team would be a little more exclusive.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/slu/preview-slu-vs-duquesne/article_b2f9d92f-1e99-5e72-86e2-dad508d36fdb.html

". SLU will reveal the 16 players and three coaches who were selected for the school’s all-century team Wednesday at halftime."

SLU press release says the same

At halftime of tonight’s game, the All-Century Team will be unveiled. The team will consist of 16 players and three coaches. Billiken fans have been voting for the All-Century Team since early December.

http://www.slubillikens.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=27200&ATCLID=209847505

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