Three Years Ago Tonight

[brianstl]

They only spent one week at #23 and only won two postseason games in 2011 under Majerus. Crews might have had nothing to do with it, but they won five postseason games, spent 13 weeks nationally ranked, and reached the top 10 in the next two years. So Crews certainly didn't hold that team back from improving as a whole. That's the problem with assuming Crews' problem is all lack of "development." The fact is he just didn't bring in players to compare with what Majerus left him.

According to Pomeroy the teams ranked 11-12 #17, 12-13 #16 and 13-14 #33. Sagarin had them at #17, #20 and #37. My eye test tells me the 11-12 team was the best and most balanced team of those three. I don't really care where the voters ranked them.

[brianstl]

Agreed. If I had to allocate the current horrible status of the team its 80% recruiting and 20% coaching/player development.

I simply can't buy the "crews can't coach" to the extreme view that others seem to be taking. After all, the two most successful years in modern history were under his coaching watch.

It should be obvious that Crews has no clue when it comes to offense. Every year the offense deteriorated dramatically under Crews.

[SLU_Nick]

Agreed. If I had to allocate the current horrible status of the team its 80% recruiting and 20% coaching/player development.

I simply can't buy the "crews can't coach" to the extreme view that others seem to be taking. After all, the two most successful years in modern history were under his coaching watch.

I can respect that. I just think that without the precision offense/defense that Majerus ingrained in them, they would never have been as good as bball players. They would have started in Crews' system...which we have seen does not work to any degree in modern college basketball.

[hsmith19]

According to Pomeroy the teams ranked 11-12 #17, 12-13 #16 and 13-14 #33. Sagarin had them at #17, #20 and #37. My eye test tells me the 11-12 team was the best and most balanced team of those three. I don't really care where the voters ranked them.

But where did Sagarin and Kempom have the 13-14 team at their peak? We all know that team tanked at the end, but earlier in the year that team was really good. Maybe not #10 in the nation good, but definitely in the same ballpark of the earlier two teams.

I've never understood how the 11-12 team was ranked that highly by some of the statheads. They didn't have the bad losses of the later teams, but they also didn't have the big wins of the 12-13 team or the consistent run of wins of the 13-14 team. As far as eyeballs go, that team clearly had the most talent, but I don't think they performed the best.

[Cowboy]

But where did Sagarin and Kempom have the 13-14 team at their peak? We all know that team tanked at the end, but earlier in the year that team was really good. Maybe not #10 in the nation good, but definitely in the same ballpark of the earlier two teams.

I've never understood how the 11-12 team was ranked that highly by some of the statheads. They didn't have the bad losses of the later teams, but they also didn't have the big wins of the 12-13 team or the consistent run of wins of the 13-14 team. As far as eyeballs go, that team clearly had the most talent, but I don't think they performed the best.

-the 11-12 team had a very high effective fg% and a really good (low) turnover% on KenPom

-as we are seeing, shooting is somewhat important

[ACE]

It should be obvious that Crews has no clue when it comes to offense. Every year the offense deteriorated dramatically under Crews.

I'm not disputing your premise, but there are other factors to consider when evaluating a decline in offense - KC and BC graduated following RM's final season, so JC didn't have them for his interim season, plus KM missed the first month that year... once KM returned is when the team started to roll again; And following that season, KM and CE graduate, so there was an erosion of talent off the roster that is also a big factor in offensive decline. The depth wasn't the same.

[hsmith19]

-the 11-12 team had a very high effective fg% and a really good (low) turnover% on KenPom

-as we are seeing, shooting is somewhat important

The biggest difference in terms of shooting from that year to the later ones was 3s. Not sure how much of that was Majerus mojo and how much the trend of all our three point shooters to never get much better as their careers progressed here, which goes back to the Majerus days. And obviously losing Mitchell and Ellis hurt the third year. I agree that keeping the TOs down is one of the things that took the biggest hit without Majerus, though.

But I think it's important to remember that the talent got progressively worse each of those three years. We lost Conklin, then Mitchell/Ellis/Remekun without ever really replacing them. McBroom was the only player we added that turned out to be any kind of real difference maker at any point. Yet in spite of losing that talent the team held steady and actually got better results the longer they played together (until the crash at the end of 14, anyway). So again my biggest beef with Crews is not bringing in better players at any point.

[TheChosenOne]

But I think it's important to remember that the talent got progressively worse each of those three years. We lost Conklin, then Mitchell/Ellis/Remekun without ever really replacing them. McBroom was the only player we added that turned out to be any kind of real difference maker at any point. Yet in spite of losing that talent the team held steady and actually got better results the longer they played together (until the crash at the end of 14, anyway). So again my biggest beef with Crews is not bringing in better players at any point.

Bang, he got it (my only contention would be that the 14 season only crashed at the end, there were chinks in the armor that entire season that finally started to result in losses). What a fun 3 year run that was (and I spent a lot of that time in classrooms in Edwardsville missing some incredible games, so maybe I am the problem).

[brianstl]

Bang, he got it (my only contention would be that the 14 season only crashed at the end, there were chinks in the armor that entire season that finally started to result in losses).

The offense was brutal that entire season. That season was full of long periods between fgs.

[brianstl]

The team actually improved it's defensive efficiency under Crews. He deserves credit for that.

I think both Evans and McCall regressed as players their senior season and I think Crews has to take some of the blame for that. I, also, think he has to take some of the blame for Barnett never developing offensively. Barnett somehow became a terrible free throw shooter under Crews. His shot got all screwed up while he was at SLU.

[billikenfan05]

Don't act like Majerus teams were offensive juggernauts

[ACE]

Bang, he got it (my only contention would be that the 14 season only crashed at the end, there were chinks in the armor that entire season that finally started to result in losses). What a fun 3 year run that was (and I spent a lot of that time in classrooms in Edwardsville missing some incredible games, so maybe I am the problem).

Agreed there were chinks in the armor - most notably that was not a deep team. After JJ, MM, RL and DE, not much. One could make the argument that team overachieved to get to a Top 10 ranking. Heck if we don't cough up that late 2nd half lead to Wichita State (a game that still pisses me off), we may have cracked the Top 5, which would have been a remarkable accomplishment for a SLU team. I am PO'd like everybody else regarding JC right now, but I'm not going to rewrite history. That team did quite well to go as far as they did.

[TheChosenOne]

It is interesting to look at the Pomeroy rankings for the past handful of seasons:

2009-2010: ranked 87th overall (197th adjusted offensive efficiency/21st adjusted defensive efficiency)

2010-2011: ranked 129th overall (257th adjusted offensive efficiency/35th adjusted defensive efficiency)

2011-2012: ranked 17th overall (39th adjusted offensive efficiency/11th adjusted defensive efficiency)

2012-2013: ranked 16th overall (75th adjusted offensive efficiency/6th adjusted defensive efficiency)

2013-2104: ranked 35th overall (181st adjusted offensive efficiency/7th adjusted defensive efficiency)

2014-2015: ranked 298th overall (317th adjusted offensive efficiency/186th adjusted defensive efficiency)

2015-2016 (currently): ranked 248th overall (296th adjusted offensive efficiency/178th adjusted defensive efficiency)

Man those Majerus teams defended.

[hsmith19]

11-12: 68.7 PPG, .449 FG%, 11.2 TO/G

12-13: 68.2 PPG, .446 FG%, 11.4 TO/G

13-14: 69.8 PPG, .444 FG%, 12.7 TO/G

Looking at the numbers, I still think losing Mitchell and Ellis in 2013 was the biggest blow to the offense, not necessarily losing Majerus on the bench in 2012.

[Clock_Tower]

The team actually improved it's defensive efficiency under Crews. He deserves credit for that.

I think both Evans and McCall regressed as players their senior season and I think Crews has to take some of the blame for that. I, also, think he has to take some of the blame for Barnett never developing offensively. Barnett somehow became a terrible free throw shooter under Crews. His shot got all screwed up while he was at SLU.

+1 Revisionist history is now giving Crews all this credit for developing RM's players while acknowledging Crews is doing a bad job developing his own players. Look. RM had already taught Jordair how to not only set screens but to use screens. From the first day JJ set foot on campus, JJ did have raw talent. How much raw more raw talent did he have versus Marcus Bartley (both on day 1) is so tough to analyze and compare. Face it. None of us watched any of these guys until November 15th or so and yet the kids all had/have been receiving individual/team instruction long before that. I do know that JJ made really poor decisions and had alot of turnovers initials. And yes, a guy who make alot of turnovers is a liability. I also know that Rob Loe was very thin and weak and did get pushed around, did prefer to play on the perimeter and was not ready and enthused at playing a traditional interior game that most American centers players, so yes, RL did have a big adjustment and need time to develop. I do know that MM was super quick, had a good shot and was not afraid to shoot, but I also know that he played very little defense initially and that he did not/could dribble/penetrate or run the offense like KM did the year prior. I also know that DE worked hard and tried to post up on guys who were taller, bigger and stronger than he and that things did not always go so well for him. In fact, I thought DE was the worst of the 4 at the beginning of the Freshman year but then DE made real strides and finished the year much stronger and not the worst of the 4. Each of RM's players improved over the first year and the team also improved that year. And yes, this improvement did leave me with optimism after the year. More improvement followed the second year, and no, it was not the return of KM which made us good the following year. Instead, it was also the improved play of these guys.

After two years of learning how to set/use picks, how to box out to rebound, how to use proper footwork and how to run RM's offense with precision, these guys were largely already developed. As Roy likes to say, nearly anyone could have stepped in and stood on the sidelines and had the success that Crews had. At first, I agreed with this only partially. Now, I believe the same much more because I see how poorly the guys in the classes below developed. Even if we agree that Manning and Glaze in the class below and Tanner, Crawford and Reggie in the class years below had inferior talent, I do suggest that each could have and should have contributed to the team more than they did. And yes, our already developed talent declined each year (BC and KC graduated), then KM, CE and CR graduated) before RL, DE, JJ and MM graduated but the reason we only had 4 Seniors plus Barnett their Senior year was because Crews could not develop anyone from the classes below to even assist, play a role or take some of the minutes. Turns out the chinks in the armor that Senior year (lack of development or contribution from JM, GG, TL, MC, RA and AB were really foreshadowing signs of the impending freefall of the program. Crews deserves no for developing RL, DE, JJ and MM when we has utterly failed to develop anyone else.

Crews is a hoax. He needs to go and he needs to go now. And as to this year's Soph's, they should not have even received much playing time last year as we had JM, GG, TL, MC, RA and AB all ahead of them. The fact that they outplayed these guys, earned the time they got, showed flashes of hope and optimism along with individual size, talents and skills is proof that there is some decent talent here (not the worst since 1983). But even these guys have regressed and now the optimism is not so great. Face it. Our guys have quit. They are not inspired to play for Crews. Recruiting talent and player development analysis both now fail when guys are uninspired and quit.

[hsmith19]

Oh boy, another straw man argument. Keep moving the goal posts, CT, and maybe you'll find one that sticks eventually.

Nobody at any point in this thread has said Crews was responsible for the improvement the 2014 class made. The point is that "development" did not stop when Majerus left and is not the biggest of this team's problems post-Majerus, let alone the only problem. Evans improved as a junior after Majerus was no longer around. He took a step back as a senior, but I still think that was mainly because he was forced to play a different position after Ellis and Remekun graduated (and were not replaced by Crews), not because of a "development" deficiency. Jett improved some as a junior and a ton as a senior after Majerus was no longer around. Adding quality players to the roster, on the other hand, did screech to a halt as soon as Majerus left.

Free throws in particular seems like a really weird thing to blame on Crews. If he's to blame for Barnett's % going way down, is he also responsible for Loe's and Evans' %es going way up as soon as Majerus left?

[slufan13]

Per kenpom, here's where each of the team's peaked and when they did it

2011-2012: 10th - February 18th

2012-2013: 15th - March 21st

2013-2014: 19th - February 22nd

2014-2015: 81st - November 15th

2015-2016: 118th - November 24th

Here's also their low points and the date:

2011-2012: 62nd - November 11th

2012-2013: 64th - January 26th

2013-2014: 36th - March 9th

2014-2015: 297th - March 7th

2015-2016: 263rd - January 17th

[slufan13]

I don't give Crews any credit for the development of those guys as I don't think he deserves any. To me the only two good things Crews has done are 1. Keep everything afloat and not getting too involved after Majerus died. and 2. Fouling with 5 minutes left against NC State.

[hsmith19]

Per kenpom, here's where each of the team's peaked and when they did it

2011-2012: 10th - February 18th

Even looking at the EFG% and TO rate, I still don't quite understand this. I agree with most on here who say the 2014 team didn't really look or "feel" like a top 10 team by the time they got there, but the 2012 team never did to me either. The only thing I can think of is that they played a schedule that was tough but still didn't leave many chances for marquee wins. Lots of teams in the 40-80 RPI range but not many better than that, and the few chances they got they made it close but couldn't close the deal.

[majerus mojo]

Per kenpom, here's where each of the team's peaked and when they did it

2011-2012: 10th - February 18th

2012-2013: 15th - March 21st

2013-2014: 19th - February 22nd

2014-2015: 81st - November 15th

2015-2016: 118th - November 24th

'12-13.. Talk about peaking at the right time.. Such a shaft being sent to San Jose

[slufan13]

Even looking at the EFG% and TO rate, I still don't quite understand this. I agree with most on here who say the 2014 team didn't really look or "feel" like a top 10 team by the time they got there, but the 2012 team never did to me either. The only thing I can think of is that they played a schedule that was tough but still didn't leave many chances for marquee wins. Lots of teams in the 40-80 RPI range but not many better than that, and the few chances they got they made it close but couldn't close the deal.

Well it's somewhat dependent on other teams. If 2012 was maybe a bad year all around, being 10th that year could have been like being 20th the next. That said, I'd probably rank the teams 2012 as the best, then 2013, then 2014 as a distant 3rd. I'd maybe put 2013 ahead of 2012 at their peaks.

[hsmith19]

Talent-wise I agree with that ranking, but I would put 11-12 last in terms of my memory of wins and losses. Their best win before that peak on Feb 18th was the one at Xavier, in a year when Xavier wasn't great and during a rough patch when they fell all the way from the top 10 to the tourney bubble. I was just happy to see a SLU team in the tourney at that point. Never would have considered it possible to beat teams like Butler and VCU five times in one season.

[Clock_Tower]

+1 It is a given that most players can and do improve some over time during their collegiate career as they gain more experience, their bodies grow, develop and fill out and/or they train individually or with the help of an outside trainer. Making assumptions either way based on individual stats in a team sport like hsmtih is doing can result in errors. I am not willing to give Crews credit simply because certain players demonstrate improved play as Juniors and Seniors (Jett) just as I am not willing to blame Crews for certain players possibly regressing their Senior year (DE). Team stats and team stats over time, such as those suggested by Brian, are more accurate than any individual player's stats. As suggested, basketball is a team game and DE's game sorely missed the outside threat of CE. Even individual skills such as FT's can be largely dependent upon a player's confidence and mental state of mind. When a player enjoys his teammates, respects his coach, is put in position to succeed and the team wins, then yes, even FT percentages can be attributed, in part, to the coaching..

Aside from the mentioned physical maturity, the teaching of the basics or fundamentals is what lays the groundwork for all development. Not only to do I believe that RM laid this groundwork for Jett, MM, RL and DE but also I see the lack of such groundwork in the in the later classes. The best thing Crews did early was to not change what RM had put in place. Our guys simply cannot set a screen or use a screen; do not block out for rebounds; do not execute help side defense and have poor footwork. We are now seeing the results of Crews' attempt at teaching the fundamentals as opposed not changing what RM had put in place. And while I believe that Crews has not forgotten basketball fundamentals, I believe Crews has lost his team, they do not respect him and they are not listening to him. Talk about new offenses, zone defense, etc. is useless in that these players won't execute anything for Crews.