Is Bernie right about our fans?

[SLUDrew]

I always thought he was being a little harsh when he said SLU fans can't tolerate criticism. Maybe he is right though. Those of us who are critical of different aspects of the program or more particluarly of Brad Soderberg, are still huge fans of this program. However, we are labeled as haters or ABC's or whatever other clever way we can be pigeon-holed. What does it say about the state of our program when we do not feel strong enough to hear criticism. Is our collective self-esteem so low that when someone says something critical we lash out at that person with unbridled anger?

If we want to stop being "the little program that could" and step into the limelight then you have to be able to handle the critique of the program that comes with that. I would rather be a program that someone at least takes the time to criticize than a program that no one even cares to comment about.

We all have very high expectations for this program. We are all fans of the game and have our own opinions on how things can improve. Just because we don't step in line with every little thing Soderberg does in no way mean that we wish for SLU to lose. That is completely ridiculous. I love many sports and many teams, but none more than SLU bball, and I would venture to guess that others in the "ABC" feel the same way.

[Westy03]

Here we go again..

[Iggy]

I just wish everyone would post with the thought that all of our players and potential recruits are reading it. I sure hope most of them aren't. If I were a recruit and read this board, I'm not sure that these are the fans I would want to play for.

[Pollyanna]

Our team DOES read it, and it's not often very encouraging... I can't believe the smack I hear our own fans talk at the games about our team. If you can't say something nice, at least wait until you get home to let out all your complaints, and then attempt to do it with some class.

[Sheltiedave]

All is not perfect in Billiken land, but the last time I checked, Brad had significant experience with coaching and recruiting at Wisconsin, and was hired by Romar to be his lead assistant. He seems to be a good fit at SLU.

Warranted criticism is fine. Needless and constant static is idiotic, counterproductive, and serves little purpose. If you are a big fan, join the Billiken Club, and buy access to the two people you need to chat with - Brad and Cheryl. A two minute conversation with either of them may give you a new perspective, or maybe change the course of Billiken basketball forever. Don't wait...

[slu72]

They read this? I would think UB would put it off limits. But if they :....Hey, we love you guys....continue that strong D....DB what's up with the airballs, big guy, you're better than that? IV, keep taking it strong. KL, rest the elbow, we're going to need you big time in the next 3 weeks. TL, you are 'da man. JJ nice game against UOP....keep it up. And to all of you, good luck, take us dancing, and have a safe holiday season. We do love you, and most of us know nothing, so I wouldn't take any of it to heart. Just keep winning.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Criticism? Try Pessimism. I've been critical of the team. I've said Ian needs to become more aggressive and I've said coach needs to be more flexible. That's called critisicm. No, what you guys do is just ***** and *****. Hell, we're 5 minutes into a game and you make the proclamation that we are horrible and won't make the tourney. Then we come back from a huge deficit and win on the road. Does that get an apology? Hell no. We're just a ###### ass team who got lucky again. All of a sudden we have become Duke or UNC. 7-2 isn't good enough. I'm sure those teams have never been down to a lesser opponent on the road. bull****. 7-2 is great for now. Hopefully we'll get to 20+ wins...and it looks like we will. But that still isn't enough. You guys just don't know how to enjoy a good thing. WE ARE 7-2, NOT 2-7. And you still don't have ANYTHING good to say.

[kwyjibo]

I could care less whether you are positive or negative about SLU. I do care whether posts are thoughtful, informative, funny, insightful, or unique (for example if everyone was positive around here, I might carefully bring in negative stuff). The negative posts are fine if they at least show balance or perspective. A lot of people who post negatively consistently (as opposed to a few negative thoughts) demonstrate lack of balance and complaining about things that are not even problems (like "only winning by 10") show lack of perspective.

There are "positive" posters that show lack of balance and perspective too but there are a lot less of those (and even then there is a presumption of positiveness on a "fan site). There are some "negative" posters (I don't think you are one) who ONLY complain. If you have been here a while you will notice people who complain about very specific things (like coach doesn't do X or can't accomplish Y) but when that coach does exactly what they complained about they complain about something else instead of acknowledging the change/accomplishment. I think people rightly get tired of that stuff.

I don't think this is about Brad which seems to fuel the "anti-" side so much (and maybe some of the "pro". For me, it very much about the Billikens and enjoying the success/dealing with the failures. I see it as pretty good evidence of a "hidden agenda" when people who criticize the coach--"because they care about the team"--seldom complain about the non-coach aspects that hurt the team (like resources, TV, media, event coordination). For example, no one talks about the increasingly uneven TV exposure being offered to the Big East/ACC (which has a bigger impact on our recruiting efforts than 99% of what people complain about here).

[moytoy12]

Please link the post that said "7-2 isn't good enough." Not the post that says i thought we would be 8-1, but 7-2 is fine (or ones similar to such tone).

[Billikan]

This new "nothing is good enough" crowd drives me crazy. I can't keep up with the posts to try to give the other side of some of this idiocy. I would guess that players and recruits do read this board and it is impossible for them to discern the real fans from the supernegative naysayers who claim to be diehard fans when we all know they just love to post negative crap and complain constantly. I know this is the "internet" so that means--by the explanation I get from the insulters--- that anyone can say any insulting or demeaning thing they want without consequences but at times this board of supposed fans is just ridiculous!

[NashvilleBilliken]

Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna go through and try to find a quote, but "7-2 isn't good enough" is exactly what we've been debating for 3 days. Hardball has said it probably 10 times. Kshoe, Drew and a handful of others feel the same way. They feel we have accomplished nothing with 7 wins...at least that's how it comes across. How many times have they said the wins don't really count cause the teams suck. It's everywhere, dude.

[moytoy12]

Will you please list the "the supernegative naysayers" so i can understand your frame of reference and see what you consider supernegative. I'm not trying to be facetious.

[SLUDrew]

After the U of P win I posted "Just win baby" and that those who thought we should blow Pacific out of the water were off base because any road win is a good win. HOWEVER, I am in no way going to retract what I said after the first half. It was a terrible half of basketball. Why sugarcoat that? The players know it, and Coach Soderberg knows it. If we were playing just baout any other team on our schedule, we would have gotten blown out in that game. I may have jumped the gun by saying we wouldn't make the tournament, but that half was horrible, and yes I know two halves make a whole, so spare me.

[moytoy12]

I asked because i don't recall that exact phrase (and very well could have missed it), but if you are interpreting their statements that way, then that's an entirely different story.

"How many times have they said the wins don't really count cause the teams suck."

None that i have seen.

I guess we filter their comments differently. Can you show me a post where they say our wins don't count because the teams suck (outside of Quincy, which makes since because as i understand it, the win against Quincy might not count. I am sure someone can correct me on this).

I'm pushing you and Billikan on this because i think you are misrepresenting the point they are making. Also, there may be one or two that just want to blast the Bills, but that certainly doesn't make a crowd or a mob as you and Billikan express.

[Hardball]

To be clear I posted a few days ago after someone posted that Anderson from Missouri was appointed as the Top Coach who has made a difference in his teams early success. I said the University ought to be fiquring out an alternative PR machine to conteract the recent lovefest with Anderson and Mizzou. If nothing is done this is the type of percieved success that can affect recruiting in a negative way.

[brianstl]

But that wouldn't be as fun for some people as blaming the coach. Blaming the coach and fans that think they are better basketball minds than the coach is a long time Billiken fan favorite. It goes back to when Grawer first started turning the program around. As soon as the more than the few hundred that went to the games at the Arena, when I was a little kid and Ekker was the coach, they started to appear. They think they know everything about basketball, ***** constantly, and swear they have been going to every game for thirty years, even thou nobody saw them in the lean years and average attendance says it was impossible.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Sure, I'll admit I exaggerated a little bit. But I still contend there is a huge difference between criticism and pessimism. And I feel you and the rest of the crew are grossly pessimistic and it's unwarranted. For where we are right now record wise, with the talent we have on this team, and where we think we may be at the end of the season, this board looks like we're a program in turmoil. That annoys me tremendously.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I have no desire to go back through the board and give you a bunch of links. I'm growing quite tired of this whole thing.

Bottom line is there is a lot of pessimism on this board. All the "what if" posts focus on worst case scenarios. For a fan board, i would expect to see a few "best case" scenarios. Haven't seen them yet. I think DocB posted one the other day, that was nice. Other than that, the negative far outweighs the bad. I've been spending a lot more time on A-10 board because we at least get some respect there. A lot more than on our own site.

[moytoy12]

Excuse my desire to see support for your assertations.

[slufanskip]

The problem is a dose of reality is construed as excepting mediocrity. Because I realize that we don't go from a team that hasn't been in the tourney in 5 or so years and a team that didn't make the NIT last year to a team that is trashed because they didn't play well on the road against two definite tourney teams. I'm looking for improvement. I think we have it. I think and hope that it will be enough improvement to make the NCAA tourney. I hope to continue to improve and remain in the tourney enough that a bad year is the NIT. I just don't expect it overnight. Please don't start naming the names of those that have done it ... I or no one I can remember ever said it was impossible, it just isn't done very often. I don't agree with everything Brad does ... really not even close, I also don't think I know more than him ... I realize mine is just an opinion and may be right once in awhile, but if you make a list of everything I disagree with Brad on ... he will be right 90% of the time. He has much more experience than I do, knows inside info that I don't, and watches the players play every day ... I don't. Yes it is fun to disagree and argue about it, that is what this board is about. It seems to me though that some posters seem to think they no more than our coach. There is no other way to put it besides that is silly and just wrong.

I don't doubt for a minute that most of the naysayers are fans. In fact I know they are ... I just think they need to get a little perspective ... but hell maybe I'm wrong.

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[courtside]

First of all, message boards for SLU aren't a lot different than message boards anywhere else...biggest difference is volume..the bigger schools get thousands of people on at any given time. I received what 35 or so resposnes to that Valley or A10 poll...pretty tiny amount. And it is a true reflection of the board...a small group.

This board is pretty tame for the most part. Because it is a small group the few yahoos with off the wall posts stand out much much more.

These are 18-22 year old kids, playing big time college ball...these are not little babies. I would be deeply concerned of any student athlete taking any college message board comments seriously. Because this is big time buisness, a spotlight if you will, kids can be criticized without backlash. Fair objective analysis is welcomed, positive and negative.

We are not here to coddle infants.

Trolls and flamers aren't taken seriously anywhere. And kids are a lot smarter than you give them credit Iggy. If a potential recruit cared what was said on a message board, there would be no college hoops period.

[Basketbill]

SLU DREW I viewed your comment after the first half as a comment meant to be follwed with an "ARRRRGGGGHHH!!!" ala Charlie Brown after lucy pulls the football out from underneath him.

I think some fans are waiting for Lucy to pull the ball, are too afraid to excited about the best start since Hughes was here. Now we have a game against Tenn-Martin, to get reaquainted with our home, then a tough test...with Missouri St. If we win both those games then most fans will come around, if we beat Carolina too, then anyone who does not come around should be thrown under the bus.I bet even Bernie writes an article about slu but will tell us "I told you so article".

[courtside]

See if this scenario is common to anyone. Journalist writes or says on radio or tv something deragotory about SLU, SLU fan gets very upset and says...in this small city, that media person has a ton of power and the average Joe out there believes anything that media person says. We must fight said person to the death.

Now, I agree that in St. Louis, or really any other city, many casual observers read listen etc..to media person and believes that they are informed and correct much of the time. Many other casual observers do not feel this way...and many informed people hold differening opinions as well. Two approaches people can do...1) Stuff the email inbox of these people, fill in the call in shows, etc..until they are tired of you. 2) Not worry about it, and know that there are plenty of casual observers who do not believe everything they read, even in media star struck town of St. Louis. Neither response is the correct answer, there isn't a correct answer. People can do different things.

I do believe SLU's fan base is blue hairs. Yes we all know on this board and elsewhere of other SLU fans who aren't...but the fan base is Blue hairs whether people admit that or not. And many of those blue hairs are rather defensive(never met a blue hair who wasn't about their team. SLU needs to drastically diversify its fan base, and win games. Sports has plenty of bandwagon fans, including media, and if you win, the media comes around...if you do not win, media considers you irrelevant. Now, in a city like St. Louis, a pro sports town as opposed to college, having a team that doesn't win, playing an unattractive style(which it has til this year)...it isn't going to garner a lot of attention. I am with those who say, thanks, I will take negative attention, because it is better than being irrelevant. This sort of banter with local media and the local college team's sports fans...when the state school gets more attention etc...or whatever the example is...happens all the time in other cities too...it is NOT unique to St. Louis.

SLU needs to build a consistent make the NCAA team, and have to market their team and games as an event not to be missed, and attract more students to games, and more 20-30 somethings to go along with tiny kids and blue hairs. Some marketing please, any marketing. It needs to be raucous rowdy etc...still with class...but this isn't supposed to be a quiet afternoon with the family. It shouldn't be.

If people think Miklasz wields tremendous power and influence...then the Athletic Dept should be reaching out to him and media alike if it is deemed so important..which I don't think it is...but I have no problem if others do.

[Band Legend]

You guys can all argue until you're blue in the face, but the truth is just that simple. Win and everyone loves you, lose and you have the local columnist all over you. Until we have long term success we are easy picking for the local scribe. Reaching out to Bernie, or creating a spin machine to enhance our image is a laughable concept. Our resources should be concentrated on making our program a higher class operation from the player's perspective. Obviously the new building is the single most important step that SLU has ever taken in that direction. Remember that Bernie and many others thought that the new building would never happen. So just keep proving people wrong, and even people like Bernie will jump on your bandwagon. Unfortunately, when he jumps on 50 people will have to get off even things up. That is one sloppy giant blob!

[brianstl]

He is a paper tiger. He gets killed in the radio ratings by Slaten. This happens even with him being the lead sports columnist for the only daily newspaper in town. Notice he doesn't get booked on FSN as much anymore or Sports Plus. His asking price for these things is way past any ratings benefit he could ever deliver and they have found this out.

He is really pretty sad, he has such a need for urban street cred he feels a need to suck up to the Charlie Tunas and DJs of the area. this just further strains his credibility. I haven't even metioned his seemingly endless desire to wear throwbacks that are at least two sizes too small for him. Bernie doesn't drive public opinion in this town and he really doesn't even help spur the conversation.

The Morning Grind crew has a bigger influence on the sports conversation in this town than Bernie does. It might not be realized by a lot of people on this board because of the age of many posters. Bernie works for a no longer relevant newspaper and a never relevant radio station.