Why not the MVC?

[Stagophile]

Just some commentary from an outside observer...

I think more and more people are recognizing the MVC as a major conference. Attendance at most games is 7-10+ thousand people. It has some great teams and arena's. It has some of the best basketball venues in the US. Indiana State just beat Indiana. Wichita State beat Providence and Iowa just lost to N Iowa

Which begs the question, why isn't St. Louis in the MVC? I am not sure what you gain by traveling east to play a bunch small east coast schools in a comparable league. Playing Xavier and Dayton in Ohio makes sense, but, playing the likes of Charlotte, Rhode Island and LaSalle makes no sense to me. And I suspect most St. Louis fans could care less too.

In my humble opinion, St. Louis, and Marquette too, should be in the MVS where you would be playing in front of your natural fan base and against natural opponents. All these moves to establish national conferences like the Big East/Midwest and the Atlantic/Midwest 14 are destined to fail. Regardless, given the current state of the MVS, don't you think you and Marquette would probably be enough elevate the MVS into the Major conference category?

[billiken_roy]

i assume you just found this board.

[Stagophile]

>i assume you just found this board.

Yes and I apologize if this has been discussed before. I am discussing your joining the A10 on another MB and wanted to get some insider viewpoints. If you don't wish to discuss, I again apologize and will move on.

[Billsboys]

You make outstanding points and points that have been disscused before. The problem with SLU and alot of their alumni is that they think they are big time. SLU does belong in the MVC for obvious reasons. For some reason people think of the MVC as a bad word or a conference that is not the caliber for SLU. That thinking is wrong and unfortunate. There are so many points that can be made to this but I just don't have the time to spend on this.

[worthington]

Gotta think big to get big.

Strength and wisdom are not opposing values.

[Stagophile]

Ok, thanks for your feedback. I understand if people don't want to discuss. It sounds like it have been discussed extensively here.

But, just a warning, I think alot Billikens' fans are going to be disappointed when they start traveling to Kingston, RI and Olean, NY and to puny gyms on the campuses of LaSalle and Fordham and play in front crowds of no more than 2,500 fans. The A10 is a top Mid-Major conference, but, it is not a big time major conference.

[SShoe]

1.) Because historically the A-10 has been a better conference than the MVC, until the MVC gets two Elite 8 teams in one year, I might listen.

2.) Because while geographically these schools don't make sense, we are more of a match with Xavier, Dayton, St. Joe's, Temple, and the other private institutions as well as many not being football schools. This leads me to the next point.

3.) The non-football schools and private schools should be thought of in the future. The Big East's current structure probably will not last and we should align ourselves as much as possible with these types of schools for when a parochial conference (if ever happens) is formed. Marquette, Depaul, SLU, Xavier, ND?, St. Joe's, etc make a very strong conference.

4.) A-10 has a television contract with ESPN.

[Stagophile]

Marquette, Depaul, SLU, Xavier, ND?, St. Joe's

Now that makes sense!!! Bring along Creighton and Dayton and you have the makings of a great league.

[SShoe]

I would think the league would definately want Creighton

[AlumniFan]

Billsboy: Did you go to Saint Louis University?

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[thetorch]

Lets look at the scoreboard for the MVC and A-10 from last night.

MVC Games 12/6

Chatanooga 69

Creighton 64

Butler 70

Bradley 60

Indiana 67

Indiana St 72

Illinois St 65

IPFW 37

Northern Iowa 67

Iowa 63

Western Kentucky 84

Evansville 77

Witchita St 75

San Fransisco 67

A-10 Games 12/6

Rhode Island 78

Manhattan 69

St Joes 70

Kansas 67

Temple 60

Princeton 47

Now for 12/5

MVC Games

Iowa St 89

Drake 74

A-10 Games

George Washington 78

Maryland 70

St Louis 69

Jackson St 53

St Bonaventure 85

Central Conn St 56

Louisville 53

Rhode Island 45

Games on 12/4

MVC no games

A-10

Richmond 62

Prairie View A&M 48

So far this week the MVC is 4-4. They beat teams from the Big Ten, West Coast and an Independent. They lost to teams from the Southern, Horizon, Sun Belt, and Big 12.

The A-10 is 7-1. We lost to a Big East team. We beat teams from the ACC, Metro Atlantic, Ivy, Big 12, Southwestern Athletic, and Northeast.

Putting this in context last night was the biggest night of the last 3 years for the MVC. It has been a fairly ho hum week for the A-10. Which league has fared better this week? I think without a doubt the A-10.

If St. Louis and Marquette joined the Mo Valley we might make it a lower major conference. Why should we join a conference to make it better though? We should join a conference that makes us better not the other way around. SLU has been doing just that for 15 years. Our conference affiliation has lifted our program, we play better teams, get on TV more, and get better players because of it. We lose that joining the MVC. SLU has consistently gotten better in the past decade, with a couple bumps in the road. We may not get to be a perrennial top 25 team ever but we will continue to try and do so. Joining the MVC I am afraid we would never get close to reaching that goal.

[billiken_roy]

stag, to assume a significant fan base travels with the team is not sensible. hell i have been to almost every conference tourney since 1989 and we rarely have more than about 20 fans at those games in nice cities like cincy, memphis, louisville, chicago, etc. what makes you think everyone wants to go to cedar rapids, evansville, terre haute, carbondale, springfield, peoria, bloomington, cedar rapids, etc.

so i dont think travel destinations is anything for the mvc to hang their hats on.

second, father biondi has stated that his student recruiting focus (not athletics, students) is east coast. dont you think that the billikens showing up in those locals might enhance student recruitment?

second, until the past couple of seasons, the mvc hasnt been much in the way of actual basketball competition as compared to the a-10. the ncaa revenue that is being split is almost double what the mvc gets. just two seasons ago the a-10 had two teams in the elite 8.

maybe most important, is like philosophies in institutions. the a-10 is made up of mostly private schools with a lot of the same institutional philosophies and academic standards.

last we have been told by the athletic dept in the past that there is a belief that eventually there will be another conference shake up. think of both the big east and the a-10 as the likely leader in this shuffle. both conferences are too big and the big east in particular with it's 16 members is likely headed to a football vs basketball only school showdown for revenues from tv sources. when that happens, there is a belief that a third conference will be born from the split offs from both conferences. and for saint louis to be included, they need to be a part of the likely groups. for example, you could bet that creighton would like to be included in that group as well, but one could easily see them being left out due to the already formed relationships between the other two conferences.

last is scheduling. go look at the two conferences out of conference schedules. it isnt even close. the a-10 is able to schedule the top schools from around the country annually. and other than indiana state and the iowa schools, who i believe are mandated by the state legislatures to play the other iowa public schools, that just doesnt happen with near the regularity. i am sure that the mvc schools would love to have higher profile teams visit their schools. but it just doesnt happen on a regular basis. i assume the size of their municipalities has something to do with that, but whatever the reasons are, it just doesnt happen. and if the billikens want to continue to play a tougher out of conference schedule, the mvc wasnt the answer.

i could go on and on, but imo there are actually no good reasons except geography in being in the mvc. and i addressed the geography issues at the top. i am glad the mvc is so worried about us. it is great to be wanted. but i think that other than forming that midwest private school basketball only conference already, the a-10 was by far the better option.

[cheeseman]

Stag - you have to forgive us and understand that this is topic that is very old news and was debated to the nth degree two years ago and off and on before that. We are tired of hearing people keep bringing this issue up over and over. We have had long standing relationships with several MVC teams - SMS, SIU as examples. We find that our attendance at home games barely show an uptick from those school's fans and they have provided us with little or no national exposure - in other words no TV. We respect the MVC for who they are and what they have accomplished but being able to play in Philadelphia, New York, outside Boston, Cincinati, Pittsburg, are far better markets for us then Peoria, Springfield, Carbondale, Terre Haute. SLU has traditionally had a student market base in the east and the chance to play against schools with more similar budgeting and academic goals was appealing. Others have talked about how overall the A10 has been better than the MVC, the ESPN TV contract, the MV's history of getting just the winner of the conference tourney in the NCAA - I realize that recently the MVC has done well but their track record does support this trend likely continuing were as the A10 has been more consistent in getting multiple teams in over the years. Hopefully this helps answers your question.

[kshoe]

While the last couple days have been good for the A-10 and I was surprised by some of the losses the MVC had yesterday, so far this season the MVC has had a very good non-conference season (as evidenced by their strong RPI). As I look at A-10 scores I've been amazed by some of the bad teams that Fordham and Duquesne have lost too. The bottom of the A-10 really has been bad this year. The only team with a losing record in the Valley is Evansville while Fordham and Duquesne are a comine 2-9.

Does any of this make me want to join the MVC, no. Sshoe above discussed the major good reasons for joining the A-10. On average the A-10 is a better conference than the Valley but last year and maybe this year that hasn't been the case. These things are cyclical and while the MVC is having its best run ever right now and the A-10 seems to be as down as its ever been they aren't all that different. Think how big the difference will be when the A-10 is strong and the Valley is down.

[Tonka]

Stag, don't apologize for asking a question. We can't expect every one to have been reading this board for the past couple years. If we have that attitude, we'd never get any new posters.

I think some answered your question and I can't add a lot to that. I guess time will tell whether this was a good move for us or not. SLU has played in midwestern conferences up to this point, I personally don't see what we lose in giving this a shot. It gives us exposure in new markets. I don't see this as a long term thing and as others have mentioned I see a shake up in several conferences in the next couple years. Who knows the A10 may drop the 2 worst teams and it will be a better conference just because of that. There could be a shake up in the big east, the MVC may restructure, or another conference may form.

As much as some St. Louis fans may not care about playing Rhode Island and LaSalle, I don't think they'd care anymore about playing Indiana State and Wichita State. Closer in proximity yes, but that's about it. I think SLU will continue to play the MVC teams they have developed rivalries with as part of a non-conference schedule. There's a team or two I'd like to see SLU play from the MVC more often. But, I like the fresh change and since the A10 has had a little more success than the MVC in the past, since it gives us new exposure in new markets, since we'll continue to play some MVC teams, I like the move to the A10.

[courtside]

You can do well by pretty much reading the few posts right above this one starting with Roy, Cheeseman, Tonka...

Regardless of what anyone says on this board, SLU would have LOVED to be invited to join the Big East, even though it is too big and eventually may change. In a millisecond. Conferences should have 12 teams.

As a school, SLU is looking to continue to advance academically, and also geographically. A LOT of folks live in the Northeast. Programs like Temple, St. Joe's etc...when doing well get coverage, a lot of it.

No disrespect to the nice people in the towns of the MVC, but if you want to be big time, academically, athletically, or in any way...gotta reach big markets.

I could have simply answered: Money, Media markets, TV.

I would also agree to some extent with AJ's comments about SLU perhaps thinking they are bigger and more important than they are. With that said, SLU needs to push for more exposure, to be better and better and bigger and more big time in all facets of the school. It is doing that slowly.

I am sure folks on this board would prefer a hoops conference that looked something like this:

SLU

Marquette

Dayton

Xavier

Creighton

Georgetown

Villanova

Providence

St. Joe's

Seton Hall

DePaul

Notre Dame

Marquette? Who can blame them for joining the Big East? Strong hoops traditon, have had history of East Coast players/coaches etc...also, they are a little over an hour from the nation's third largest tv market...common knowledge that the Chicago Tribune Sports editors went there, big alumni support there, and they are covered perhaps 1st in local hoops over UI and the local city schools...the only college team it covers more is ND football, just down the road in South Bend. Off topic but since I folow college soccer...Marquette recently fired its men's soccer coach and replaced him with a guy who took the job primarily so he can compete with soccer powers UCONN, St. John's, ND, etc...and he probably would not have taken it if it was C-USA or something else, a big success of a hire for them.

The A-10 is not ideal for SLU, but one, SLU has to prove they can become a consistent NCAA tourney team year in and year out, something they haven't done. The A-10 was the better alternative in basketball than the MVC for the above reasons. Hopefully years down the road SLU will be a perennial top 25 team, playing in bigger road gyms on bigger stages. The school in the past has NOT in any way shape or form from an administration standpoint, had any inkling of a commitment to major college hoops. The school has in the past ten years plus made a commitment to academics, campus quality, etc...and hopefully will be in the same breath of Georgetown, BC, etc...down the road when kids or adults think of the jesuit schools, when it comes to the college experience.

[Taj79]

I think you have all the answers you need. I would like to focus on two .... places to play (recruit ..both students and athletes) and the "like" philosophy thing.

As noted, our illustrious president has identified the northeast as a student recruiting hotbed. Going to these places can only increase the profile in those areas. How many kids go to a school where they, as basketball playrs, are guaranteed return trips to their home area almost every year? It happens, could happen to us.

But more importantly, I think it is the schools. The 'like" philosophy has to be huge. Not only for us .. when you look at Dayton, La Salle, X, Temple and so on ... but also for others which is why I think Marquette adn DePaul are somewhat screwed in the Big Least. What we did in the old CUSA is huge when you post SLU against state-funded schools like UofL, UC, UAB, SoMiss and some of the others. I think the A10 gives us more to compete with and against.

I've always liked the Valley and we did have our start there. But times and places evolve and they don't fit us anymore.

[Whatsasaluki]

Through games of Wednesday, December 7

Average Avg Non-Conf Average Rankings of Members

Rnk Conference W-L Pct Non-Conf RPI SOS (Rank) Overall RPI Hi Lo Avg Median

1 Big Ten Conference 54-17 .761 .5906 .5398 ( 2) .5906 ( 1) 7 158 73 66

2 Big East Conference 71-24 .747 .5785 .5389 ( 4) .5785 ( 2) 14 241 79 74

3 Southeastern Conference 59-15 .797 .5771 .5196 ( 9) .5771 ( 3) 4 182 87 85

4 Big XII Conference 52-19 .732 .5655 .5306 ( 6) .5655 ( 5) 8 233 96 86

5 Atlantic Coast Conference 62-17 .785 .5633 .5051 (16) .5670 ( 4) 1 249 104 92

6 Missouri Valley Conference 35-14 .714 .5590 .5018 (17) .5590 ( 6) 3 242 108 97

7 Western Athletic Conference 26-23 .531 .5290 .5190 (10) .5290 ( 8) 27 236 132 168

8 Mountain West Conference 31-23 .574 .5204 .5108 (13) .5204 ( 9) 12 296 142 121

9 Colonial Athletic Association 35-21 .625 .5191 .4860 (21) .5293 ( 7) 16 278 131 94

10 Atlantic 10 Conference 53-30 .639 .5153 .4697 (28) .5153 (10) 21 306 146 152

[kwyjibo]

I am guessing you included Kingston, RI in your list of "disappointing places to travel" because it sounds remote to you but you would be wrong. There might not be an airline that flies directly from Lambert to TF Green (Providence) but Kingston is only 18 miles/minutes from the airport. I would think if you like to fly it would be a pleasant and easy trip (Olean is hard to get to from what I understand).

Also, southern Rhode Island is considered a highly desirable place to travel (Newport, Naragansett, etc.). Maybe not so much in the winter but still plenty to see. I have not spent much time down there myself but I have heard many good things. If nothing else the oldest continuously operated tavern in the US is down there somewhere and that is a place to visit. (I have actually made a pilgrimage to the site of the very first tavern on now U. S. soil which is on Great Island near Wellfleet, MA).

[Cowboy]

-someone please explain how Sagarin or RPI has a preseason ranking??

to me there has to be what I will call obvious bias in this because before any game is played Duke is #1 with a score much higher than Praire View A&M and both records are 0-0, you can guess how the season will go, but that is differnet than ranking based on fact

-if we agree there is a bias, the much more important question is, how does or does this bias get worked out as the season progresses?

the reason much more important is b/c post season (NCAA) is based partially on this (RPI)

-so what then, does a conference ranking after 3 weeks of games really mean?

-on the conference front, if we think just being the A10 will get us involved in the next deal when conference reshuffeling happens, I think that is nuts. we better be in the top of the A10 consistently to be able to play in the hand we may want. Just being there is simply not enough in my mind.

[cheeseman]

Whatasiu - thanks for sharing the conference rankings - let me point a couple of things out: 1. no body in this thread has dissed the MVC - in fact we all acknowledged that the past couple of years they have done well but if history repeats, it is not a trend that is likely to continue. Once again, that is not a diss. 2. Cowboy makes a good point - last week the A-10 was ranked 14 and the MVC 6th. One week later, the A10 is ranked 10 and the MVC is 7th. If this trend continues, in a couple of weeks, the A10 and the MVC will be on even footing or the A10 might even pass the MVC up so boasting your rank now is premature - wait until the preconf. season is over.

Cowboy - I do disagree with you on one point. By being in the A10, it does give us an entrance to the discussions - now if we flounder in the conference then we might very well be dumped when the discussions start but you can not be asked to dance if you are not at the party.