Coaching Classic Back-to-the-Basket Power Forwards

[davidnark]

Back in Spoon's day, we had guys like Dobbs, Harris, and Jamal Johnson who you could throw the ball to and expect them to score points with their back-to-the-basket. Each of these guys was skilled in using their butts to get position on defenders and score. IMO, the ability to score with the back-to-the hoop is a key skill of the power forward.

Since Brad has taken over the head coaching job, all of our 4s (Sloan, Izik, JJ, and Newborne) have played offense facing the basket.

Is this a case of coaching or personnel? I fear that it is coaching. The first time I saw Obi, I thought that we may finally have a power forward with the size and strength to back guys up around the basket. Then I watched him in scrimmage and exhibition games and was disappointed to find him roaming the court on offense while facing the hoop. Can someone track down Dobbs or Harris and recruit them to teach our power forwards to use their butts to score points in the paint?

[slufanskip]

I think it is more the style of the game has changed, more so than ever before ... big men want to move outside which results in them learning to play facing the basket, which in turn means they probably don't develop the back to the basket skills

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[3star_recruit]

Eddie Sutton and Bobby Knight haven't had a classic back to the basket power foward in years and they used to have those kinds of players all the time. I think it's just a sign of the times.

[jjray]

I wish to lend support for David's post. If you are playing a skinny, leaper at PF then, sure, it makes sense that they roam and don't have a back-to-the-basket game. But a guy with a PF body like Obi (or even JJ to an extent) has to learn to use that body under the basket especially when guarded by smaller players. Had a conversation with a well regarded Billiken player last year and he specifically brought up the point that not one of the coaches on Brad's staff was a college big. Who teaches these kids post moves? Who is their mentor?

All that said, Ian is the best back-to-basket big we have had at SLU in a long time.

[Taj79]

I remember reading "Foul!" the life story of my first basketball hero .. Connie Hawkins. In it, there is a passage where he talks about playing in the ABA and he asks the great George Mikan about his hook shot and how its done. Mikan takes like ten hook shots in a row and makes all ten of them. He then hands the ball to the Hawk and says, "there, that's how its done." Needless to say, there isn't a lot that is transferred from one great to the other in such a sequence.

I can't see anyone on the current staff having had the background to train a back-to-the-basket four. I don't think there is much on the staff to train a face-to-the-basket four although it can't be much different than if you are a three ... which is close to a big guard anyway. So Beane and Thorpe and Grunk are close enough. Which means that all the training for the basics are left up to the AAU coaches and the high school coaches or what a kid gets in maybe a week or two a year at a camp?

I think the idea of having a Dobbs or a Harris or a Bonner on your staff is definitely something that has to work better than not. if we don't land the classic four, we either have to build one or do without. This year, it looks like without. Next year I think we're all believing in Obi. Who saw Obi in high school? Classic four or a tweener? That might tell us a lot right away.

I am guessing that the international arena identifies their big men early .. in this case Ian. I'm willing to bet he was schooled in the art of the interior much more than half the big men in the NCAA are. No way to prove it, but just a thought.

I don't think you need a classic four all the time. I don't think you need a classic five either. How many teams have an Andrew Bogut or Sheldon Williams year in and year out? What you have to have is a lineup that complements your style. Did we need a classic four or five in the early 90's? Nope. Didn't fit our style. But to play that style, three or four or five guys had to shoot the rock well. We're looking for one right now.

If the style is to go with an interior domianted lineup (which I think we have right now with Ian), then finding a complimentary four would be good. Its another option. We'd need less guys to hit the open outside jumper if the interior options double, but a few more than the uncertainty we have now ... one game from Drejaj notwithstanding.

[thetorch]

Angres is in charge of the bigs. I thought he did a nice job with Kenny Brown, who progressed from a spaz to a decent D-1 post player on offense.

It is apparent that back to the basket play is a lost art. Take the NBA for example. Very few guys play that way well and know how to defend it at all. Duncan for example is a great player but He would be more a part of the crowd in the 80s than the elite end all and be all of big men as he is today.

Obi should be adapting his game to this style. If he did he would have a legit shot at the league. Unfortunately Obi plays away from the basket popping jumpers. He should be using his big ass to get in the lane.

JJ is too jittery to play down low. He needs some ritalin or soemthing. Calm him down on the court. VN is just not very skilled, can't jump and is out of shape.

[Kahok]

You don't find many power forwards in college basketball that are strictly a power forward in the true sense of a back to the basket four. College coaches now are into the pro set of dribble drive and they must be able to shoot the three or the longer mid range jumper.

[Billiken Rich]

to find an old school 4 to pick up the garbage and rebound........

[billiken_roy]

i think 3 star is right. the game has evolved. blame it on the likes of kevin garnett or dirk nowinski. blame it on a lack of big men overall, but back to the basket players arent taught at the college level. they grow up playing like that. i dont think it is a spoon feather or a romar/sodeberg negative. it just happens. kids develop guard skills now regardless of size and that then translates into transition basketball which then eliminates and inside player or two.

i dont like it, but that is the way i see it too. but i am one of the few that like a good 55-52 game over 110-90 as well. so who knows.

[Billikan]

I loved Anthony Bonner but he was never a back to the basket bump and grind Big forward like Dobbs. He was a leaping athletic guy who would have been a perfect three man if he had an outside shot. The problem in today's college game is the the truly talented bigs who are athletic and can or even want to play with their back to the basket are few and far between and most are in the NBA, not college.

If you read a lot about high school bigs and most college bigs their main emphasis is proving that they can move outside and play on the perimiter so they can go to the NBA. There is a reason that NC won the national championship last year. They had one of the few legitimate low post players in all of the country--May. If we can find a guy who fits the bill that is fine but in the meantime we need some 6'7" or 6'8" guys who can leap and rebound. We have an outstanding back to the basket player in IAN!

[Tonka]

Tyler Hansborough plays the 5 but doesn't he play with his back to the basket backing players down. The few times I saw him play he did. If that is the case, it might be interesting to watch him. He's highly regarded and he's 6'9" which is big, but no 7 footer. I think he's kind of a throwback in rgeards to this. Maybe I am wrong, but I guess we'll see tomorrow night.

[Billikan]

Bonner was only 6'7" and he made up for it with incredible hustle and jumping ability. In that sense he there are some similarities to Hansborough but Tyler is taller.

[tseugnekillib]

If I told you that SLU's second post-player (IV being the first) played great defense, scored 10 points and grabbed 8 boards in a game....does it really matter how he scored the 10 points.

Does it really matter if his 10 points came on 8 footers, or put-backs, or tip-ins, or inside power moves, or mostly on free-throws? The box score will say 10 points.....and I'll be satisfied with that(assuming a ton of free throws weren't missed).

SLU will look another recruiting year for a guy (juco and prepster) who can defend in the post, rebound a bit, catch the ball in a crowd, hopefully be able to pass the ball to an open man, score a bit, and run the floor in a reasonable amount of time. After that, grades, transcripts and character also play a role. Maybe this Spring we will find what we are looking for!

[Tonka]

I guess you can say "what does it really matter" to a lot of points. While I agree with you on the end result, I think David Nark was just making an observation and a discussion point. I tend to agree with him.

[jjray]

I hope you are right guest and I, for one, will not worry about how he scores ... as long as the dude is a suplemental scorer, defends, and can board. OK, I lied. I won't worry about it during Ian's senior year but the next year we will need help down low. Bryce looks like a solid backup center but no more. We'll see.

[tseugnekillib]

I agree that this is an interesting topic. But I just don't think D1 coaches go out and look for a PF who can "butt" their way underneath the rim and score. Hopefully, it's one of the prospects tools, but not his only offensive tool.

My recall of Harris is that he an okay shooter 7-8 feet away from the basket and that he was a reasonable free-throw shooter (mid-to-high 60%).

We will see how BH develops this year and the next two seasons. A low-post jump hook should be a strong 7+ footers'meat (and the free-throws that come with that move.)!