Can Lisch keep us afloat until Brad fixes recruiting?

[3star_recruit]

Coach needs three point bombers at the 1,2 and 3 for his motion offense to be really effective. Finding reasonable facsimiles of Claggett, Highmark and Waldman is a lot more realistic than getting Bonner II to come here. Right now we're playing 4 on 5 and sometimes 3 on 5 with players who are woefully unproductive in a halfcourt set.

[Billikan]

You don't even mention Tommy who I believe will help immeasurably in the transition game which should relieve the pressure on our half court offense. Also, I think Polk and Meyer will be much more productive next year and Danny Brown has played well enough to be considered a potential star in the future. We got some beautiful looks, particularly Reggie, and we just missed the shots. Let's hope Lisch and the returning guys can hit those open shots.

The key is to recruit some players who can fill in at the four spot. I think Ian has proved that he has the potential to be very effective in the middle next year after another year of development but I have seen nothing from JJ or anyone else who will be playing at the four next year that even gives me the slightest bit of confidence. If we can recruit a guy who can just rebound and defend we could have a very nice team next year.

[Taj79]

Danny Brown ... limited minutes. Luke Meyer .... even more limited minutes. Dwayne Polk ... only way to go is up. Lisch .... freshman. Liddell ... freshman. And it appears to be five guards.

Well ... roll the ball out. Sooner or later up will have to become the norm rather than the exception. I guess based on this, we are more likely to see another day with a Donnie Dobbs-like center then we are an AB-type power forward.

Bombs away and pray.

[Billikan]

I think you must never have seen a Billiken game this year. Danny Brown has made fantastic progress and he is a real athlete with great quickness. He will play.

Also, Ian has has mede great strides and he will be, in my opinion, a force in the middle next year. The opposing center last night was touted as an NBA prospect who was being scouted by 3 teams. Except for a few blocks when our guards just drove right in and tried to shoot over him--ridiculous--and a few rebounds he got by going over the back of our smaller players he did nothing. I would take Ian over him any time and particularly with is upside potential.

[tseugnekillib]

In your opinion, in a typical Big12, Big10, MVC or C-USA game what percentage of possessions present realistic fast break opportunities versus a regular half-court set of some kind?

[billiken_roy]

i know coming from me this may sound surprising, but i honestly believe that liddell will be the better player at least initially. the one year of experience at hargrove is going to be immense in advancing liddell.

however, i do believe that lisch will play a prominent role from day one as well. i think they both may be the best two players on the team next year unless brad hits a jackpot on the last two scholarships.

[slufanskip]

What are you talking about ... until Brad fixes recruiting?

In his last 2 classes ... which IMO on the only two you can fairly grade he has

IV, TF, BH, DC, DB, VN, and DP ... with KL and TL coming in this year.

I would say all of those guys are good choices ... with the exception of DC who IMO has been a dissapointment and VN who I would say the jury is still out on ... but I would be leaning towards considering him a dissapointment at this point in time.

TF ... good pick ... can't help the injuries

IV ... looking like he is going to be a pretty good center

BH ... hasn't played much ... but has had flashes good and bad

DC ... nothing much good to say ..

DB ... has looked great for a freshman

VN ... not what I expected ... still a little time to turn it around

DP ... who doesn't like this recruit

IMO he hit on 5 of 7 ... yes we still need a good 4, but to say recruiting needs fixed ... I don't agree.

Yes we are having a bad year ... but it takes time for Freshman to become college stars ... the reason we are having a bad year should not fall on any of the above shoulders ... except DC ... who should have been ready to give a few good minutes off the bench and VN who we expected to help out right away and hasn't. Our bad year stems from injuries to TF and RB and no improvement from AD.

If TF was playing 30 minutes and averaging 10 and 8 and Reg was averaging 16-17 ppg along with AD playing 20-25 minutes and getting 8-9 ppg we would be a different team. We did not have enough depth ... no question ... but it takes a while to develop depth.

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[cheeseman]

I am sure glad Brad had hit on 5 of 7 - according to you. The truth is if they were as good as you say we would not be sitting with 5 wins. They are not Freshmen anymore - all are either true sophs or red shirted sophs or upper classmen. recruiting class was just not very good as a whole - I understand that TF has been injuried any nobody can predict that but the others have had trouble producing and showing any real growth. I don't know who is to blame and at this point it is not productive to blame the kids or Brad - probably enough for all to share. I do think that Brad has boxed himself in a tight corner - things have got to improve next year and the year after better be some kind of a break through for the program. He can talk about 5 years of building the program - new contract - but he would have actually had 7 years. This spring recruiting opportunity for him is critical. He must bring in a player or 2 that is better than what he has - not counting the fall signees - or the program will really be stagnating.

[billiken_roy]

NO NAME POS HT WT YR Hometown (Last School)

00 Dwayne Polk G 5-9 160 FR St. Louis, Mo. (Vashon)

show tremendous promise. fantastic athlete the definition of speed. however, hasnt shown the shot we all expected and hasnt consistently played the point the way a winning point guard is expected to do. there is no given yet.

1 Tom Frericks C/F 6-9 250 SR Bowling Green, Ky. (Chipola)

when healthy was just a horse. but was hurt mostof the time and this year was a complete wash out. coulda been but didnt

2 Wendell Bennett G 6-0 190 SO Brooklyn, N.Y. (St. Anthony's)

walk on that hasnt even dressed this year.

3 Danny Brown G 6-4 200 FR Houston, Texas (Alief Elsik)

appears to be quite the catch. still young, and not playing enough to really evaluate.

10 Peyton Jacks G 6-0 175 FR Dallas, Texas (Jesuit Prep)

another walk on

11 Darren Clarke G 6-4 180 SO Minnetonka, Minn. (Hopkins)

the biggest mystery of coach soderberg's recruiting. appears to be a good athlete, but cant get court time after two years? if i was clarke i would transfer.

15 Ian Vouyoukas C/F 6-10 270 SO Athens, Greece

with his size, of course tremendous potential. but at this point not going to take us anywhere.

20 Anthony Drejaj G 6-2 205 JR West Orange, N.J. (Seton Hall Prep)

hasnt improved in 3 years. should have become the point guard this year, but his shot has went south and his ball skills are just adequate at best.

21 Reggie Bryant G 6-2 205 SR Baltimore, Md. (Villanova)

fine shooter. adequate defender who has actually gotten better playing defense over two seasons. has played better the last few weeks until the last game vs east carolina. imo, would have been a great second or third option on a team. would have been great as perry's running mate.

23 Justin Johnson F 6-8 230 SO Merrillville, Ind. (Merrillville)

if clarke is soderberg's greatest riddle, johnson is second. again appears to be a very good athlete. has good size. has shown a little bit of shooting touch. but sits.

30 Izik Ohanon F 6-9 220 SR Jerusalem, Israel

has shown flashes where you swear he is george gervin. then he just disappears for games. since christmas though has without a doubt been our best player. but like bryant, isnt suited to having to step up and be the man. would have been a great 2nd or third option. but adequate in the role as the main goto guy.

32 Luke Meyer G 6-5 200 FR Washington, Mo. (St. Francis Borgia)

incomplete at this time. appears to play hard when in the game. but hasnt shown any inclination to even want to score after being a prolific high school scorer.

33 Vas'Shun Newborne F 6-6 220 JR Natchez, Miss. (Chipola JC)

classic tweener. too small to really be a power forward, not enough out court savy and skill to be a wing. it appears will be a sub for two years.

40 Ian Mooney G 6-2 190 SO Austin, Texas (St. Michael's Academy)

walk on

44 Bryce Husak C 7-0 260 RS FR Mt. Vernon, Iowa (Mt. Vernon)

he aint luke schenscher

it appears to me, there was/is a lot of dice rolling on our recruits. a lot of hoping of development. i believe that coach soderberg banked on frericks, bryant and izik to have huge senior years giving time for the fresh sophs to develop. i bet he assumed drejaj would put the time in to become the main point guard which would have taken some pressure off of polk to step in immediately while he learned how to be a point guard.

overall, i agree with 3 star. nothing is a given. there is not one player coming back that can be counted on to take over and be the man, not one player that can be counted on to step in as a starter and give the production needed as a top 5 player that is needed for the billikens to be a top 25-50 program.

now i agree there is potential. a lot of ifs. we know polk is blessed with god given skills that come along about once every 30 years. we know ian and bryce are big. you cant teach 7 foot. and it appears that danny brown has some size and skills that would make him a credible player. but other than that, we dont have anything to take to vegas. if you think about it, we all are hoping like mad that liddell and lisch are the real deals. and that isnt what it should be.

[Schasz]

BRoy,

Your evaluation of what we have would appear right on for this basketball team. I am planning on seeing them play when they make their last CUSA trip to Tampa. It's hard to sugar coat what's been a 5-13 season so far.

We are going to put a lot of eggs in the Kevin and Tommie baskets next season. That may be expecting too much from Frosh players as many have commented on some disappointment with Master Polk's initial Billiken season. Unless some of the players that we have coming back really improve next season, a winning '05-'06 season maybe a real accomplishment.

[Taj79]

.. I haven't seen a game this year so I have nothing to really add about Danny Brown. But as far as a boxscore perspective is concerned, he ain't James Gist, Darius Washington, Juan Palacidos, Rudy Gay or other freshmen of note. So real progress is nice if that's what one bases evaluations on. I think most of us base it on the won-loss record and you can't sugarcoat that in any way.

I note, and I believe I've noted before, that your handle ends with the positive .. in relationship to "can" as in "can do." For the most you have always dwelt onthe positive and for that you should be commended.

We shall visit this again next year, because it would only be right at that time. You say in your opinion, Ian will be a force. I disagree .... all the while hoping you are right. But while we are a good ten months away from next year, define "force." Not as a challenge, but for some historical perspective that serves as a guideline to next year's production. What's a force? Averages of 10 ppg, 10rpg, 4 bpg?

As for the oppsoing center .. I am assuming you mean Moussa Badiane .... I'd like to know who thinks he's a prospect? But as broy says somewhere in this thread, you can't teach 7 feet tall. Badiane had what 8 points, five rebounds, and three blocks. I guess anybody could be a prospect but so what? Frankly, comparing any of our guys to an ECU or South Florida or SEMO State player is not favorable in my opinion. Ian will be a prospect ... if Badiane is and Heinrich was ... so too will Ian. Tim Kempton and Mark McNamara had NBA careers as well. So did Joe Kleine.

Big Country down at Okie State had a heck of a college career and flunked out inthe pros ... did he not? I don't care what these guys doin the NBA .. but if Ian has a career at SLU lie Big COuntry Reeves had at OSU ... color me giddy!

[3star_recruit]

If Liddell makes a bigger impact on the scoreboard within the confines of the motion offense I will be shocked. Bottom line -- who is going to hit more 17-20 foot jump shots that all these screens create? Unless his long range jumper has improved a lot since high school, it ain't gonna be Liddell. Danny Brown has shot the ball very well in practice almost from day one -- maybe that jumper will start falling in games like it did for Ricky Paulding late in his freshman season. That would give us two outside shooters which is one more than we have now.

[billiken_roy]

liddell might not score more ppg than lisch, but add in his assists and such, i think his overall input will be more.

[cheeseman]

Can not disagree with Roy and Schaz comments - what shame that here this season is still going and we already are worried if next year can be any better. Brad either got snake bit all at once or he simply has trouble identifying talent that is not already star quality. Asking Lisch and Liddel to carry this team next year is unfair - Grawer asked Winfield, Clagget and Highmark to do it and look what happened that year. I really hope, DB can step up and IV does also. The only other hope would be that JJ becomes more consistent but who knows and I am assuming that Polk will be better - not an unrealistic expectation. As far as BH goes - he can become a decent back up for next year and that is not too much to hope for. VN - what a disappointment - what did Brad ever see in him? DC - who knows.

[jjray]

>liddell might not score more ppg than lisch, but add in his

>assists and such, i think his overall input will be more.

Assists to whom? I think that is 3Star's point. If we are ropped into playing half-court basketball without an inside scoring threat, Liddell drives and kicks the ball back outside for an open look .... who's there to nail it? We shall be expecting a lot from Lisch as a freshman next year. I like what I see from D. Brown (on both ends of the floor). Not inconceivable he will start shooting the ball better. Polk will have to shoot better (or he should play less). Maybe Ian will consistently hit that baby hook with a wide body hanging on him. We might see more transition baskets next year; however, I just don't see SLU as a predominately running team with Brad as coach. Did not you make this same point pre-season Roy? The pack defense inhibits transition baskets as 4 players always have a foot in the paint. Another factor is that traditionally SLU guards are needed to come down on defense to help rebound. Also, Brad dislikes pressing as he fears giving up the easy basket. Adds up to us still being pretty much a half-court offensive team next year.

[Box and Won]

Badiane didn't play much of the first half, as he got in foul trouble early. He dominated in the second half, especially against Justin Johnson.

[billiken_roy]

jjray, more up tempo doesnt have to completely equate to run and gun. for example, many of spoon's teams and all of romar's teams and the previous two seasons of coach brad meant running the clock to 10 seconds before even thinking about going to the basket. i thought earlier in the year, coach brad wasnt doing that nearly as much as before. that is more in the vein of what i am talking about. that said, the success in january seems to coincide with returning to shot clock ball.

[Billikan]

You are correct that I seem to always view the glass as half full because I suffered through so many ugly years some time ago.

As to Ian, I would guess that he will average at least 9 points and 8 rebounds a game next year with some games of double figures in both categories. If he does that it would put him into the upper echelon of modern Billiken centers. He will also do a nice job on the offensive end in distributing the ball and playing the high post or low post depending on the need.

I believe he will play tough defense and he will cause problems for people in the paint but I doubt he will have huge numbers of blocked shots--maybe 1.5 per game.

If he continues to get stronger we will have the best all around Billikan center in the last 10-15 years, at least.

[Sheltiedave]

Cheeseman, Grawer asked Robinson, Irvin, and Skinner to carry the team, and they couldn't. The freshmen got their turn at second semester, and they all went through the freshmen blues..but it led to the Big Dance jr and sr seasons. Roy and Skip are right in their assessments. Brad has recruited solid players, a couple of medium head cases, and is patiently developing players to where they can be solid contributors. This year is a perfect example of how minor injuries can cause major setbacks in a program.

While I am not the most patient person, some have absolutely no patience whatsoever! The reason Dwayne Polk has started as a freshman is because he is our best PG, a fact many of our impatient experts could not recognize at the beginning of the season. I wonder how many fans would complain that a four year starting PG is substandard talent?

I'm really amazed at the total lack of perspective. Take a look at the top seven scoring Billikens of all time, and look at their freshmen scoring averages. Only a talent of Larry Hughes caliber can lead a team in scoring their freshman year, or even be a major contributor. I hate our record, and am not happy in the least how our season went down, but I can see the positives that are here in front of us. Why not dwell on the positives?

For those that are so pissed about our poor recruiting, maybe we should fire Brad and hire Quin at the end of the season. Heck, we'll be getting McDonald's AAs, and then you can witness stellar talent lay bigger eggs than the nest we currently have, with no hope of any improvement.

[slufanskip]

Didn't we only have 5 wins in Claggs and Highmark's freshman season. Boy those guys must have been horrible basketball players since they could not lead us into the Big Dance as Freshmen.

We are starting 2 freshmen and a soph.

Ian is averaging 8 boards a game in his last 6 or 7 games and playing pretty good defense ... pretty ###### for a sophomore.

Many of you have raved about the potential and future stardom of Danny Brown and we can all see that Polk has the tools to be very good. Bryce has had moments ... but if you know anything about Luke S from Georgia Tech (whom Roy claims Bryce is not) you will know that he was not good at all his first couple of years ...so I don't know why you expect Bryce or Ian to be as good in their freshmen and Soph years as he was in his Jr year.

The problem is that we are depending to much on freshmen and sophomores ... we are not trying to mix in 1 ... we are expecting 3 to play prominent roles ... the problem this year for various reasons ... some within our control some not are AD, VN, TF, and RB ... these are the juniors and seniors that were suppossed to be carrying us and are not.

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[Triangle andToo]

College recruiting is 1rst and foremost. Evaluation!!!!

Is the player going too get better? This separates the men from the boys, not every one is going too be MJ. But has the peak been reached in the player's junior year in high school? senior year? each year in college? Only the best coaches know and they have proven the point year in and year out. Players reach their peak of performance at different ages and levels of competion, this is the best they are going too be. Our Billikens have too many players that have aready reached their peak, they ain't going too get any better, plain and simple, plain and simple. Polk is going too get better and Brown is going too get better, Meyer - maybe.

so it goes

[Taj79]

you are defining a "force" as 9ppg, 8rpg, and 1.5 bpg. Fair enough. You know what bugs me ... the old cliche "wait 'til next year' but we will have to do that in this case.

You're on.

[Taj79]

.. who will score? Billikan has set his parameters for Ian to be a "force." I'm going with that but even if Ian does do as Billkan says, that only 9 ppg. I know that's an average and there will be more on some nights and less on others ..... but ....

Now we lose RB and IO. Escuse me .. but we ain't got jack coming back at that point. I don't have stats right at my forefront but DPolk ain't scoring a lot; Brown sounds like a future; but the rest is "chuck it and hope." I said early on that having a freshman point was a very tough proposition for a Division 1 team and DPolk is having a year that attests to that. Pardon my skepticism but now you're asking me to believe in two more freshman ..... and both "appear" to be point guards or best at that particular position.

Last time I checked, a real good point will distribute to others to finish. Pardon me if I don't see any finishers here. It might ahve been better to add these two guys to a lineup that had a Perry, a Fisher, a Sloan and some others to lean on.

I'm going to carry "ouch" as my theme out of this season and into the next. I still think there's hope but color me jaded. With little developing this season I really am counting on some sort of miracle to appear with those last two scholarships right now.

As much as I don't want to jettison kids that don't produce, we seem to have a lot of those right now .... AD, Newborne, DC, JJ with Husak still in a "developmental" mode. Once again, yikes!

[slufanskip]

Wow ... thanks for that valuable information.

Ian, Bryce, Danny, Luke and Dwayne will all continue to improve and they along with a good PF, Tommie and Kevin are the majority of our team over the next few years.

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[3star_recruit]

I'm not sure how this thread became a referendum on whether our guys can play. Of course they can play. But are they a good fit for a system that requires perimeter players to consistently make 17-20 foot jump shots. Nope.

Reggie Bryant is a very good fit for this system but he's gone after this year. Lisch is a very good fit for this system. Darren Clarke might be a good fit for this system but since he's in the coach's doghouse that's a moot point. So we're left with one shooter who will be a freshman and is currently recovering from a neck stinger. Not a good situation.