Drip ... drip ... drip

[Old guy]

I have a different viewpoint as to what the result of unionization of college sports may turn out to be like. Some schools will of course try to decide whether they can afford whatever it turns out to cost to pay for unionized teams. However, even if schools sports teams become unionized, all kinds of different options may become available to different levels of schools . Many of the smaller schools do not have a large investment in physical facilities and have the option of just not offering competitive sports of any kind. These schools may negotiate an option with the union to offer a "traditional" form of sports in which the salary offered the athletes is limited to the value of the scholarship and benefits currently offered to their student teams, with the issue of who pays taxes for the team's members salaries, and whether or not they are awarded a diploma, a salary, or a diploma plus a salary. If the school is small and poorly funded (not Duke or other top schools), the union might agree not to unionize the lower end schools as a case may be made that the school just cannot afford to offer sports if they have to unionize and pay salaries similar to those possible for large, well funded schools and their players may really require a diploma.

Even if the schools are well funded and unionized, I doubt very much that  the salaries their players will wind up at the NIL level that some of the top players are paid  nowadays. Salaries and benefits are always negotiated with the unions at regular intervals a process that generally takes a good amount of time and trouble. Schools must have options to negotiate with and this is true if the school in case can just eliminate their whole Athletic departments and repurpose their facilities to do something else. I see no one,  excepting for the top schools, actually paying high salaries, and providing scholarships and other benefits to all their teams. 

A possible outcome of this negotiation process may well be the creation of a unionized sub G League run by the NBA to train promising players without granting degrees. I am just speculating, of course, and guessing options that may become reality in the future. I do not believe SLU will do well in this brave new world that is in the process of gestation at this time.

What I am absolutely certain of is that a whole lot of people who  have managed to make a reasonable living out of basketball and other sports are likely looking into an uncertain future.

[Soderball]

3 minutes ago, Old guy said:

I have a different viewpoint as to what the result of unionization of college sports may turn out to be like. Some schools will of course try to decide whether they can afford whatever it turns out to cost to pay for unionized teams. However, even if schools sports teams become unionized, all kinds of different options may become available to different levels of schools . Many of the smaller schools do not have a large investment in physical facilities and have the option of just not offering competitive sports of any kind. These schools may negotiate an option with the union to offer a "traditional" form of sports in which the salary offered the athletes is limited to the value of the scholarship and benefits currently offered to their student teams, with the issue of who pays taxes for the team's members salaries, and whether or not they are awarded a diploma, a salary, or a diploma plus a salary. If the school is small and poorly funded (not Duke or other top schools), the union might agree not to unionize the lower end schools as a case may be made that the school just cannot afford to offer sports if they have to unionize and pay salaries similar to those possible for large, well funded schools and their players may really require a diploma.

Even if the schools are well funded and unionized, I doubt very much that  the salaries their players will wind up at the NIL level that some of the top players are paid  nowadays. Salaries and benefits are always negotiated with the unions at regular intervals a process that generally takes a good amount of time and trouble. Schools must have options to negotiate with and this is true if the school in case can just eliminate their whole Athletic departments and repurpose their facilities to do something else. I see no one,  excepting for the top schools, actually paying high salaries, and providing scholarships and other benefits to all their teams. 

A possible outcome of this negotiation process may well be the creation of a unionized sub G League run by the NBA to train promising players without granting degrees. I am just speculating, of course, and guessing options that may become reality in the future. I do not believe SLU will do well in this brave new world that is in the process of gestation at this time.

What I am absolutely certain of is that a whole lot of people who  have managed to make a reasonable living out of basketball and other sports are likely looking into an uncertain future.

This got started by players at Dartmouth which doesn't even offer scholarships, old guy. The players are going to be looking for at least mid-five-figure salaries in addition to what they cost already. The situation described by Brian is a lot more likely. Unions prioritize first the existing member base.

[Old guy]

The IVYs provide all kinds of financial support out of all kinds of different funds. If Dartmouth, or Brown, or whoever wants you in their team for whatever reason, they will get you. You can be fairly sure they are provided as well as the basketball scholarship players are at SLU. Besides I am very aware that IVY athletes are likely to be more interested in  academics than in money. An Ivy school may win their league's conference tournament and go back home to no crowds receiving them, seriously. Dartmouth is the most isolated of the Ivys though. So, why push it? I do not know.

Also check what I wrote, my post was pure speculation. There is no certainty about how widespread the change produced by unionization of college sports will be, I am just speculating with the concept. I am not describing the future, just some ways it may develop into. Do you firmly believe that future events may develop in just one fixed path?

[slu72]

https://nypost.com/2024/02/06/sports/rick-pitino-wants-a-salary-cap-for-college-basketball/

Slick Rick has an idea for the P5 + the Beast. 

[Lord Elrond]

45 minutes ago, slu72 said:

https://nypost.com/2024/02/06/sports/rick-pitino-wants-a-salary-cap-for-college-basketball/

Slick Rick has an idea for the P5 + the Beast. 

He’s negotiating with the wrong group. A salary cap will never work unless you also get players to agree to it.  A salary cap also is only legal if it is part of a CBA, otherwise it’s just a group of executives illegally restraining free trade.  Technically called collusion.

[Soderball]

2 hours ago, Lord Elrond said:

He’s negotiating with the wrong group. A salary cap will never work unless you also get players to agree to it.  A salary cap also is only legal if it is part of a CBA, otherwise it’s just a group of executives illegally restraining free trade.  Technically called collusion.

It's an easy point to spout from Saint John's.

 

Alabama is never going to agree to an equal salary cap with Arkansas and Vanderbilt..

Michigan and Ohio State are never going to agree to an equal salary cap with Iowa and Nebraska.

 

Parity? PARITY? no thanks.

[TheA_Bomb]

13 minutes ago, Soderball said:

It's an easy point to spout from Saint John's.

 

Alabama is never going to agree to an equal salary cap with Arkansas and Vanderbilt..

Michigan and Ohio State are never going to agree to an equal salary cap with Iowa and Nebraska.

 

Parity? PARITY? no thanks.

Actually they might. I think conferences will handle this individually and perhaps players enter CBA with the conference.

Bama' paid less NIL money with Saban as coach. Schools that suck like aTm have to pay a premium (and still lose).

[OkieBilliken]

8 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Actually they might. I think conferences will handle this individually and perhaps players enter CBA with the conference.

Bama' paid less NIL money with Saban as coach. Schools that suck like aTm have to pay a premium (and still lose).

I think when the discussion goes beyond NIL to actual payroll earnings, this gets very murky.  In the age of DEI and Title IX, I dont see how a 2-time conference champion swimmer for example wouldn't be able to sue to make more money than your starting point guard that is turnover prone, regardless that only 12 people, mostly parents, show up to see her swim.

I don't believe universities regardless of their athletic department size and donor base will ever have the stomach to pay their rowing team, cross country team, for example.   

Other than as a stipend paid equally to everyone, I dont see how current student-athletes become employees without massive new legislation.    

[cgeldmacher]

5 hours ago, OkieBilliken said:

I think when the discussion goes beyond NIL to actual payroll earnings, this gets very murky.  In the age of DEI and Title IX, I dont see how a 2-time conference champion swimmer for example wouldn't be able to sue to make more money than your starting point guard that is turnover prone, regardless that only 12 people, mostly parents, show up to see her swim.

I don't believe universities regardless of their athletic department size and donor base will ever have the stomach to pay their rowing team, cross country team, for example.   

Other than as a stipend paid equally to everyone, I dont see how current student-athletes become employees without massive new legislation.    

To your point earlier about the NCAA not going away, I think it won't.  What will happen is that the big conferences will withdraw only as it relates to football and basketball.  They will leave all other sports in.

[Lord Elrond]

1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

To your point earlier about the NCAA not going away, I think it won't.  What will happen is that the big conferences will withdraw only as it relates to football and basketball.  They will leave all other sports in.

I’m actually going to give that a high probability. Issue with NIL only applies to MBB and football.  The FBS schools in football, and whoever wants to try in MBB will take those sports out of NCAA oversite, go entirely pro in them (not even trying to pretend they are students, just sign them to pro contracts, retain the School name as just a marketing gimmick). With them not being students that solves their problem in those sports, they can then try to keep going in whatever local conference makes sense for them within the NCAA format. This would have worked great for them 5-10 years ago, but with the NLRB ruling that srudent-athletes are employees may make that impossible.  The NIL is really not a problem in non-revenue sports, occasionally a women athlete makes some money, but that doesn’t affect the sport like it does in MBB and football. If you don’t have to pay athletes in non-revenue sports as if they were employees the colleges should be fine for thee most part with keeping them going. As I say, may be 5-10 years too late though.

[Cowboy II]

-just guessing but every other NCAA championship is subsidized by basketball, take away that subsidy and see what changes take place

-but my guess could be wrong

[Lord Elrond]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:25 PM, Cowboy II said:

-just guessing but every other NCAA championship is subsidized by basketball, take away that subsidy and see what changes take place

-but my guess could be wrong

Fair enough, but that’s not the only way to run athletics. Every Division 2, Division 3 and NAIA school in the nation finds a way to run their athletics programs without the money that goes to D1 basketball. If they want to, they can find a way to do it. Also, if they run their Football and Basketball programs as professional sports, they still get income from them.

[TheA_Bomb]

Thoughts on way forward for college sports heavily influenced by Josh Pate of "Late Kick" podcast (247, CBS Sports affiliated)

Conferences set a revenue sharing deal with players based on the sport income for media deals. Players will enter a CBA with the conference. A CBA could have stipulations on transfers, eligibility, etc. Conferences would then self regulate all things such as collectives, perhaps even eliminating the practice (inducements). Players could still enter into true NIL arrangements (selling cars etc).

Athletes stay students and not employees of the university. CBA renegotiation would be ad hoc or with Media rights renegotiations.

This makes sense as revenue sharing would be based on the revenue for your sport. It makes it so schools can keep non revenue sports. 

NCAA may continue to exist to oversee extra conference championships.

[Lord Elrond]

10 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Thoughts on way forward for college sports heavily influenced by Josh Pate of "Late Kick" podcast (247, CBS Sports affiliated)

Conferences set a revenue sharing deal with players based on the sport income for media deals. Players will enter a CBA with the conference. A CBA could have stipulations on transfers, eligibility, etc. Conferences would then self regulate all things such as collectives, perhaps even eliminating the practice (inducements). Players could still enter into true NIL arrangements (selling cars etc).

Athletes stay students and not employees of the university. CBA renegotiation would be ad hoc or with Media rights renegotiations.

This makes sense as revenue sharing would be based on the revenue for your sport. It makes it so schools can keep non revenue sports. 

NCAA may continue to exist to oversee extra conference championships.

The plan has a lot of good elements, but to make it happen, students are acknowledged to be employees. Professional athletes aren’t their own legal classification, they are employees, they have a union, and the terms of their employment are in the CBA. In order to make this happen, the schools have to make them all employees. Unless Congress passes some legislation specifically to address it.

[TheA_Bomb]

37 minutes ago, Lord Elrond said:

The plan has a lot of good elements, but to make it happen, students are acknowledged to be employees. Professional athletes aren’t their own legal classification, they are employees, they have a union, and the terms of their employment are in the CBA. In order to make this happen, the schools have to make them all employees. Unless Congress passes some legislation specifically to address it.

Or perhaps independent contractors

[Lord Elrond]

8 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Or perhaps independent contractors

Independent contractors don’t negotiate CBA’s either, they only do specific tasks for agreed to compensation. The real issue right now is that NLRB determination that student athletes are employees. I think that’s where the NCAA needs Congress to do something to undue that. I do think if some reasonable way to share the revenue with athletes had happened 5-10 years ago, this mess might have been avoided. The real problem is that the people running college sports couldn’t think bring themselves to do anything until they had to. 

[TheA_Bomb]

13 minutes ago, Lord Elrond said:

Independent contractors don’t negotiate CBA’s either, they only do specific tasks for agreed to compensation. The real issue right now is that NLRB determination that student athletes are employees. I think that’s where the NCAA needs Congress to do something to undue that. I do think if some reasonable way to share the revenue with athletes had happened 5-10 years ago, this mess might have been avoided. The real problem is that the people running college sports couldn’t think bring themselves to do anything until they had to. 

The NLRB is not the same as a court and I think it's only applicable to the Dartmouth MBB Team. yes I think it has bad implications for other schools especially the Ivy League.

Maybe CBA is not the term but some agreement on compensation with the conference to share revenue.

[Lord Elrond]

I think that the only real solution is to take FBS football and the Power 5 + Beast in MBB and make them purely professional, and remove them from the equation. The problem is what gets decided in those sports applies to all the other athletes in all the other sports eventually.