I am starting to see...

[Billikan]

why the coach is so negative about the internet. Right after a stupid preseason game we get posts that are highly personal, offensive and ridiculous.

And, unfortunately, the biggest offender is our candidate for one million posts--none other than Billiken Roy. Roy, I challange you to go back and read your posts and notice that in a short space of time you insulted and demeaned Ian, Bryce, Luke and Izak, at least, while making negative comments about others. I am sorry, but I am just as big a fan as you are, and I have been a fan much longer, and I cannot see why you feel you are the appointed one to always do the super harsh evaluation and insult our players.

These are young men. They will not be perfect. They will make mistakes. They will not progress as fast as you would hope and yet they bust their butts in practice and they are trying to get better.

We have not even played a game yet and you refer to people by name as "worthless"!!! You claim to be a father and a coach. I coached for years and had a son play college basketball. You should know that comments like those you made about these kids are very hurtful and you have no basis for your insults and derisive remarks. If I was the father of one of these young men I would want to punch you in the nose.

Of course, I know your response. The first amendment lets you say anything you want. You are free to do what you want but I have lost a lot of respect for you as a result of your posts yesterday. You owe an apology to the whole team!!!

[brehms13]

Wow....I missed a lot. I'm gonna go back and read.

[3star_recruit]

I wouldn't. The hyper-critical posts of the last 24 hours have been a pretty low point for this board. How's Reg doing?

[SluSignGuy]

I know Roy will respond for himself. But I think it should be noted that while his criticism may have been harsh (and I was not at the game, so I cannot say it was accurate or not) Roy has been also accused of being overly positive in the past. He has been accused of wearing his Billiken Blue Colored Glasses too much as well.

So to say that he "always do [does] the super harsh evaluation and insult our players." Is not necessarily a fair statement.

It is sort of interesting, many of the optimists of old have become pessimists, and many of the pessimists have become optimists. We all love Brad, and yata yata yata. But Nark and Roy are good examples in my opinion. Nark, used to be much more pessimistic about the team (being everyone's favorite Diener Basher). But this year, he even admited once if I recall correctly, he gives out much more praise and has higher expectations (although, I assume not as high as his 30-5 predicition would suggest). Roy on the other hand, with teams past, was much more praising. He was the Biggest Romar fan this board ever saw.

I admitedly am on the pessimistic side. And by pessimistic (in this post), I don't mean, the Team is going to suck. I think almost everyone here expects a winning record, that is something different from years past. But I expect worse results than the majority. Anyway, I don't expect us to be as good as people are saying. Our bigs are still young. And everyone knows that Bigs take a while to have an impact and develop. But I think we are in good shape. My theory with the whole Frericks competition thing is that Brad is trying to get Tom to work harder. Everyone works harder when someone is competing with them, or if they think they are in trouble of losing something (starting position). Who will we see start at Center. Tom. Maybe Ian will get 1 or 2 when it really doesn't matter, or Ian will start and tom subs in quick. But that is my theory on all of this. But I haven't seen a bounce of a billiken basketball yet this year. So what is my opinion worth really.

Next year is the land of Milk and Honey my friends. This year, we may get some drips from the jars, but next year... (I expect this is the last year we say next year)

Steve

[Tonka]

I missed a lot as well, by not reading and posting last night. I went to the ame yesterday and I was going to give my thoughts on what I saw at the game. I'm not sure what caused Roy to be so negative on that particular game. For one, it was still a preseason game, so things were still being tested and different combinations were being tried out. When that happens, it tends to throw things out of whack. But, despite some of the low points, I think all in all I was pretty happy with what I saw yesterday.

I do not want to completely defend stuff that Roy said, because I do not understand a lot of it. But, I know Roy often shows tough love as I have in the past. I also know that a lot of times passion can ovetake common sense.

Now, my question to Roy, what caused all the emotion in your posts last night???? Did you expect this team and these players to be further along than they are? I particularly do not understand your criticism of Ian. I can see if you are frustrated with IO, we all are. But, Ian is young and based upon the little we saw last year, what did you think would happen to his game over the summer? Ian has made tremendous strides from last year - trememndous! Is he there yet? No, but I wouldn't expect he would be. I believe he will be though. As far as Husak, he wasn't in the game long enough to criticize. The only thing I could say about Husak is that he moves way better than I ever though he would. I was pleasantly surprised about that. I am glad for that.

I am okay with the mistakes DP made yesterday and expect those this early on. I am so excited he is our PG. He has tremendous vision and can fly. He is way better than I thoguht he would be at this point, and you can clearly see why he should be our starting PG. VN, is incredible, and I still do not think we have seen oven close to the best of his game. I so hope TF stays healthy! Every year we have question marks about so many players it seems as we enter this season. Other than the obvious things to expect from a new team and from the young players, I have a lot of confidence in RB of course, DP, VN, and TF. I can't remember tha last team as we entered the season that I was that confident in the starting 4 of 5. I have my questions about IO still but will patiently wait. I think DC looks good and way more relaxed. DB totally impressed me. I thought I read he was an athlete, but missing some BB skills. He's looked pretty good to me so far and attacks the basket well. I know many of you disagree, but I like AD off the bench. Skip and I were talking at the game yesterday, and AD's talent is best used off the bench. He can come into a game, make huge defensive stops, aggressively attack an opposing player and if he's on, contribute offensively. Skip was also talking about his awkward shot. I hadn't noticed till last night.

I'm sure more will come out as the season progresses, but I am fine with where things are at right now. I think by the first home game, we will see a different team as by them roles will have been defined, the team will played together a few more weeks, etc.

[Tonka]

Steve,

I agree with a lot of what yo uhave said, but I have always advocated not looking to the future too much. Sure, it's fun to do, but I always feared we wouldn't sign players we thought we would. Well, now we have, but as sun as it is, I think THIS year is what it's all about. I think this is going to be really good. I do. IT will be so fun watching these young guys develop and by looking to next year, disrespects a guy like RB who I think will have a monster year and in his own right deserves our attention this year!

[3star_recruit]

You're way too young to be as old as you are ;-)

[kshoe]

While I think KL and TL will do wonderful things for this program its hard for me to see how we will be significantly better next year without Reggie, Tom and IO. Tom and IO will ge a lot of big-man minutes this year and unless we find solid replacements for them we will miss them dramatically. We will have a bunch of guys waiting in the wings to replace Reggie but thats easier said then done. Reggie is a special player and as good as the rest of our guards are they'll have a tough time. This is the year.

[SluSignGuy]

I did think about Reggie after I made my post. He is a very special player. But, in absolutely no offense to Reggie, I think he is the last in a Billiken Era.

-----Disclaimer, this is not meant to disrepect tons of players I really admire, just being VERY blunt for sake of debate---

Since I have really followed the Billikens, Jeff Harris' last year. We have had our stud Guard/Small Forward. And then a supporting cast.

There was Hughes, then Love, then Jeffers, then Perry, now...Bryant.

The question is...is this team more than Reggie and a supporting cast. From what I have read...Newborne and Polk are what make it a big question. Newborne seems to be able to put real additional points on the board. Polk is running the show. But I have been hesistant to the idea of a Freshman PG being able to do it all. Brad gushes about Polk, but is he really ready??

The reason why I say next year is because of what we have waiting. We have guards that all could possibly start. We will have a lot of experienced bigs. Frericks is an extremely valuable big, and I wish we had him for another year. But I think a third year Ian and Bryce can serve as adequate replacement. Hopefully, another Juco big will roll round.

Now, one could argue, that we have all these weapons now. But we get two more. The Lovely L's.

We are losing: IO, Bryant, and Frericks. IO, the time for his potential is up. He needs to start fulfilling. It is now or never. And from what I know and have seen. It will be probably be never sadly. But boy, I really really hope he proves me wrong. Frericks will be a loss. But we will recover. We were worried about losing Heinrich and Baniak, but we got Brown. We were worried about Brown, but we got Frericks. And we already know we have at least something waiting in the wings when Tom leaves.

Then there is Bryant. Damn he is good, but will Newborne and company be able to fully step into his shoes. And then there is so much waiting in the wings it is ridiculous.

We have: Newborne, Clarke, Brown, Liddell, Lisch.

Is anyone really unhappy with any of these individuals? I have heard nothing but praise about Brown, Newborne seems to be able to contribute, Clarke is a kid with a great shot, and The Lovely L's.

Mr. "Pessimist" Roy has gushed about Lisch for YEARS and YEARS. Liddell seems to make Brad absolutely GIDDY. I have never seen this much happyness about recruits since Hughes. This is no insult to any other player, including Bryant. But I don't think I have seen it before.

Would I love to have Bryant next year? ABSO-######-LUTELY. But look at the team next year. Liddell and Lisch both WON'T START I am willing to bet. THAT IS INSANE for the BILLIKENS. Things like this do not happen for us. Where 2 AMAZING recruits probably both won't start.

I am seeing this year as a learning year for Brown, Newborne, and Polk. And Maturing years for Ian, Bryce, and Clarke Then next year, we will have the system already in place. With some mighty fine weapons coming in. This is why I say we will get "some drops of Milk and Honey" this year. But next year I expect to get the WHOLE POT.

that doesn't mean I wouldn't like the pot earlier though

Steve

[billiken_roy]

let's see, tonka sets up my reply pretty good, so i will use his post to try to explain my statements yesterday. my replies should be thought of as a reply to everyone that posted yesterday and today, not tonka. it is just that tonka sets my reply up with his phrasing.

tonka said,

" I'm not sure what caused Roy to be so negative on that particular game."

first off, my negative comments were pretty restricted to a select few players. i have constantly defended and praised our guards. imo our guards can compete and excel against most sets of guards in the country. i have also come around to being a top vashun newborne fan. i constantly compare him to one of my all-time favorite billikens and leaders, quitman dillard. and the more i see of him, i think he is probably even better. i do and did apologize already for my remarks about luke meyer. imo, luke meyer is the biggest surprise on the team. lumping him with the others yesterday was wrong, he did nothing wrong except not get as much playing time. i love luke meyer and expect him to more than adequately back up vashun newborne.

if anyone saw an overall negative slant towards polk in what i said, that confused me. i immediately admitted he was the best player on the floor yesterday. after believing all summer that he would be eased into the main point guard role, it is obvious to me he doesnt need to be eased into anything. he is a star in the making and if he sticks around for four years, he will shatter every point guard record in billiken history imo. anyone that has asked me about polk in person knows i am raving about him and i have said more than once other than david burns, i think he is the fastest billiken in my history of watching the billikens. after saying he was the best player on the court yesterday, i did say i didnt like him driving into the lane in the half court offense. he had zero success doing that yesterday, so what was so wrong with that?

tonka said,

"Now, my question to Roy, what caused all the emotion in your posts last night???? Did you expect this team and these players to be further along than they are?"

because i am a huge believer in effort and preparation. and i dont direct that towards the coaches. i have seen coach soderberg in practice. there is no doubt he is providing the direction, training and motivation for players to play to their upmost ability, but as coach martz said this week about his rams, sometimes players just have to make plays and play hard. and we have seen the skills that ian and izik possess. there is no reason they cant consistently play to that level and when after two preseason games against players that are smaller, slower and less skilled, why would you want to defend our inside players performance?

i have time and time again agreed that our future will be bryce husak and ian vouyoukas in the middle. however that doesnt give us reason to pass on what is needed now to succeed. we have a point guard that is arguably the most skilled and physically gifted point guard the billikens have had in at least 30 years. we have a shooting guard, that is probably better than both justin love and erwin claggett who seem to be the measuring sticks for billiken scoring guards. our back up guards, anthony drejaj and darren clarke and dan brown, would have had no problems starting for a number of billiken teams in the past. so excuse me if i am a little excited about opportunities that are within grasp.

tonka said,

"I particularly do not understand your criticism of Ian. I can see if you are frustrated with IO, we all are. But, Ian is young and based upon the little we saw last year, what did you think would happen to his game over the summer? Ian has made tremendous strides from last year - trememndous! Is he there yet? No, but I wouldn't expect he would be. I believe he will be though. As far as Husak, he wasn't in the game long enough to criticize. The only thing I could say about Husak is that he moves way better than I ever though he would. I was pleasantly surprised about that. I am glad for that."

again, there is nothing you are saying in the above paragraph that i dont agree with, however, if they are going to be learning on the job as projects, and not excelling over competition they should be able to dominate, then they dont deserve the time on the floor. let them earn it in practice. that all said, because izik wont consistently show up, i cant deny that ian deserves time. as to what i expected, while ian did make strides, he is still overweight or soft, take your pick. now if he would have lost 20 lbs and gained big inches on his chest and shoulders and increased his veritcal jump by about 8 inches, i would be applauding and we would be talking about whether we are sweet sixteen bound. and to be honest, the fact he wasnt in school over the summer, 3 or 4 hours a day working out hard would have resulted in the above results.

tonka said,

"I am okay with the mistakes DP made yesterday and expect those this early on. I am so excited he is our PG. He has tremendous vision and can fly. He is way better than I thoguht he would be at this point, and you can clearly see why he should be our starting PG. VN, is incredible, and I still do not think we have seen oven close to the best of his game. I so hope TF stays healthy!"

I have already echoed the above sentiments as well both in above words and in posts yesterday and before, however for whatever reason no one seems to focus on the good i have been saying about the team.

to summarize, this team is the best we have had since larry hughes was a billiken. that said, our inside game imo is appearing to be mediocre. play out the season like that, we will win as much as we did last year, however with the excellent talent we have at the 3 guard/wing positions, this team should be an ncaa team. this team should contend for the cusa title. but to do that, they need more than "just let them run up and down the floor and take up space" play from frericks, ian, and izik. personally i believe they have the talent and size to be that effective. the question is will they exert the needed effort to get better and support our top group of guards? now if you all are satisfied that our inside people against much smaller, slower and less skilled umsl and truman state did just fine, well have your 18 win season. i believe this team is capable of much much more and i would prefer they start playing like that now before we lose those 4 or 5 games we coulda shoulda and then look back in march and wonder why we are playing northwestern in the nit in chicago.

[davidnark]

What Dwayne brings to this halfcourt offense is an ability to penetrate and create plays from the backcourt. He had at least four points and several assists off of halfcourt penetration. He only had two turnovers the whole game! Those of you who don't want Dwayne to penetrate in the halfcourt either don't fully understand what he brings to the table or are content with mediocrity in the halfcourt set.

[Tonka]

Steve,

Getting a little fired up - nice!!!!!!! I like that!!! Keep it up!

[billiken_roy]

there is a difference between penetrating and stoping at ten feet for a floater or flipping back out for a three to a wide open reggie or darren or newborne and driving into the trees.

[mcglotherirvin]

"as to what i expected, while ian did make strides, he is still overweight or soft, take your pick. now if he would have lost 20 lbs and gained big inches on his chest and shoulders and increased his veritcal jump by about 8 inches, i would be applauding and we would be talking about whether we are sweet sixteen bound. and to be honest, the fact he wasnt in school over the summer, 3 or 4 hours a day working out hard would have resulted in the above results."

please roy, send me your workout program. I have 3 or 4 hours a day to spend working out this summer and would love to add 8 inches to my vertical so that I can dunk a basketball. While I'm at it, I might as well lose 20 lbs and gain BIG inches on the chest and shoulders. That is completely ludicrous. If this were possible without steroids - which it is not - don't you think every college athlete would come in with 50 inch verticals, bench pressing 350 pounds. They all work out 3 to 4 hours a day over the summer - that's not that much. The problem is that there are limitations in how much progress can be made. One of those limitations is that a vertical is very unlikely to increase by 8 inches over a summer, especially for a 6'10, 270 pound kid. Please, lower your expectations or you will never be pleased with any Billiken team. Hell, if Polk and Liddell work out for 3 hours a day next summer are they going to come back built like David Boston and grabbing the top of the backboard. I think Ian looks much better.

[davidnark]

I don't understand the distrinction you are trying to make. Dwayne cannot penetrate with the intention to kick it back everytime otherwise his penetration would be predictable and therefore ineffective. I understand if you have complaints about Dwayne penetrating without looking to dish, but that is definitely not the case.

Again, he only turned the ball over twice the entire game! He had six assists, several of which were off of halfcourt penetration. He had one bad floater of off halfcourt penetration, but I bet you he hits that shot over half the time. Dwayne can do things in the halfcourt set that no player has ever done as a Billiken, but it will require him to penetrate a lot in the halfcourt. Based upon Coach Thorpe's comments last week, I think we can expect Dwayne to penetrate a lot in the halfcourt.

[billiken_roy]

he also had 3 shots blocked when he went one dribble too far. nark, you are focusing on one small aspect and one complaint i have about dwayne's marvelous game and in turn trying to make me out to be a dwayne basher or saying he is flawed. when in fact i have become a huge dwayne supporter. but thanks for trying to again take me down.

[billiken_roy]

have you watched ian jump? he doesnt get but 4 inches off the ground! heck the fact he doesnt jump center for us when he is obviously taller than anyone else on the floor ought to give you a clue. if he was already jumping 18-20 inches, i would concur with your thoughts. same with his chest and shoulders. do you realistically say that ian is in shape? now if ian already looked like anthony bonner, you have a great point, you can only refine your body so far. but the fact is, he is no where close to being in shape yet.

and for you to take my words another step farther and twist them to apply to everyone is just stupid. it shows how far you want to go to try to make me look bad. of course someone the likes of polk who already is in fantastic physical condition wont have the same results. you are an idiot to suggest such and i never said anyone and everyone could achieve such results.

however, someone with the under worked body of ian could make remarkable advancements if he truly worked at it. if you dont believe that, then you havent ever worked out regularly to know what the human body can do if pushed over a period of time regularly when it is not in prime condition to start with.

[davidnark]

Roy, I am not trying to "take you down" or get personal. I am just debating your analysis of one player.

[Billikan]

Where is the answer to my comments and questions? My focus was on the insulting and demeaning tone of your post.

We all make comments and criticisms of the team but we do not name the players by name and insult them personally.

You apologize to Luke Meyer but not to players that you claim are "worthless"!

You have a basic misunderstanding of the fundamentals of development of big men. Almost every good big man in college basketball--particularly those at 6'10, 6'11" and 7'0 or taller--over the past few years with the cream going to the NBA--have taken at least until their junior year or senior year to become fully developed players with the upper body strength that comes late for many kids who sprout up quickly. Why not give Ian a chance to be like all of the others? Why not give Bryce a chance?

If you are a fan then you are a fan of the "team"--not just a fan of a few players where you personally rip the others.

[Billikan]

Roy, you must be kidding! Do you really claim to understand what it takes to build muscle on a kid as big as Ian--a young man who is very tall and is not a naturally "strong" player?

I know from experience that it takes years of hard work with the weights, years of incredible discipline with diet and it takes almost a fulltime effort over that time.

Remember Ian is a student who has to go to school and he is not in the NBA. Even players in the NBA--like Divac--look slow and do not jump high even after 10 years of weight and strength training. Yet Divac has been an excellent player for many years.

If you expect him to look like anthony Bonner then you will always be disappointed. Bonner was a chiseled 6'8" player--and we have not seen one in a Billiken uniform since he left the program. But he has terrific potential and he has improved a lot over the summer. Give the kid a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tonka]

gain an 8" vertical??? I hate to disappoint, but I don't think Ian will ever gain 8 more inches to his vertical. that's okay though. he's 6'10" with long arms and can be very effective without adding another 8 inches. Ian will be fine and will exceed any expectations I had of him. Ian will defintely get his minutes unlike last year and that in itself will make him a better player. Roy and others, please remember where Ian was last year. He really has made big strides and does look in better shape. I think he will continue to get stronger naturally. I do hope his aggressiveness picks up as I don't know how well that can be taught to some of these kids.

BTW, Ian has a much greater chance of benching 350 than adding 8 more inches to his vertical. And, he doesn't need to be on the juice to do it. But, I doubt that is part of his plan. Ian doesn't have to bench 350 to be strong. He has decent size legs and learning to leverage his 270 pounds will in itself make him stronger.

[slufanskip]

I'm on the side of saying I am very happy with IV at this stage of his career. He is stronger and 20 lbs lighter than last year. IV will never have a body like AB ... if he did he would be in the NBA. He will get more aggressive as he learns proper positioning. It is pretty easy to understand that if he is not in the right place being to aggressive will result in a foul. If you watch, he is beat to the spot pretty often. I am not saying he will be AB ... but he will improve.

Roy ... I don't think any body has a problem with your critiquing anyone ... even disagreeing with how well they played or their skill level. It is calling them worthless that is an issue. I happen to agree I think that was over the line.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[SLUMS81]

I have not seen very many freshman or sophomore big men who dominate basketball games. They are few and far between.

The thing I did like on Saturday was the fact that we had balanced scoring - something we have not had since the best years of Spoonball. We also kept control of the ball against an aggressive, overplaying defense.

There were some defensive lapses which I am sure the coaching staff will work on.

The discussion on this thread is an indication that we all have high expectations for this team.

[billiken_roy]

of course i dont expect him to look like anthony bonner yet. i use that as an extreme example. if you cant understand the point i was trying to make i am sorry. that said, if ian is in the best possible condition he can possibly be in after being a billiken for 15 months, than either there is something wrong with the billiken training system or ian hasnt done all he can do up to this point. that is my whole point with ian.

for only about the one million time, i believe eventually ian and bryce will be more than just crediable players. my only problem is that i expected ian to be further along than he is right now developmentwise. the fact he is not and izik continues to puzzle, is what will hold this team back from being a top team. i am sorry to my fellow billiken fans that i expect more from our players.

[billiken_roy]

i didnt apologize to the other players because after those two games i dont think ian and izik are playing to the best of their potential. if that hurts their feelings i guess i am sorry for that, but i am not sorry i called them out. if you are satisfied with the way they played against umsl and truman state players that are smaller and much less talented than they are that concerns me as a fan. i shudder at what they will look like against hicks and maxiell or withers, etc. if they cant dominate albo.