wilbon article

[jjray]

I never thought I would see these words coming from someone in the national media. He hit the nail on the head--the international teams are more skilled in the game of basketball than our players (who are merely more athletic).

http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/5845326/

I hope the NBA wakes up before they destroy the game. Maybe that is the silver lining in this Olympics fiasco--it exposes the fraud that is the street ball product the NBA has been pushing on us.

[davidnark]

Great article. It reminds me why we all appreciate Coach Brad so much. If you don't play the game the right way and learn the little things, then you don't play under Brad. He is old-school, and we should enjoy every minute of it.

[Billikan]

This article does an analysis that is thoughtful and right on the mark. We have had many debates on this board about who is the better athlete and that the Bills need better athletes to compete, etc., etc. The truth is that if players play with skill and intelligence they can beat pure athletes without those qualities every time.

For that reason, I love Coach Brad and I have high hopes for the future of the Billikens. He coaches like the teams that beat the US play the game. Fundamentals, smart play, passing, screening and defense are at the heart of how he wants his team to play. It takes at least a year or two for the players to fully understand what he wants unless they come from a background that has required the same things. This year's team has a number of players that have now been in the "system" for several years and the new players all come in with the reputation as tough smart hard nosed ball players. By mid year I would expect that we will be very tough to beat.

I cannot wait for fall practice to start. Go Billikens.

[slufanskip]

He hit it right on the head. I said the same thing right after I watched the PR game. The USA does not have the best basketball players.

The international game is also a better game with the wider lane. It opens the game up. The players are bigger now than they have ever been ... the lane in the NBA gets so congested. The court is smaller now because of the increase in size of the players. I would actually like to see them lengthen and widen the court to create more room. I know it won't happen ... but I hope the NBA wakes up to the changes that are needed.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[3star_recruit]

The outcome of these Olympics doesn't change the fact that our program needs better athletes, which we are starting to get. It just isn't necessary to get the high-wire variety who lack basketball skills. I'd rather have a skilled guy who ranks 7/10 on the athleticism scale than a run and jump athlete who lacks court sense any day. It's when we get guys who rank 5/10 on the athleticism scale to play on the wing and at power forward that we run into trouble.

[Quality Is Job 1]

...is the players. The NBA doesn't need to change. Colleges don't need to change. High school coaches don't need to change. What needs to change is the players' attitude about the sport they play.

I have no problem with the best athletes dominating basketball in the U.S. But just because they're the best athletes doesn't mean they should skimp on mastering the skills that are most important in basketball: shooting, ballhandling (passing, dribbling), and positioning (blocking out, moving feet on defense, staying between man and basket on defense, seeing ball and man, cutting without the ball). Coaches in the U.S. want to teach players those things, but players don't want to focus on those things -- just the wow plays that will get them on SportsCenter and And 1 highlight tapes.

[slu72]

for his post below about how AAU ball is not the best training ground for Americas young players. I know tsueg challenged Roy, but he cited exceptions to typical AAU ballgames and the camps. We've all been to high school all star games where the scores are in the 120's. What a joke. But this is what our young players have come to know as basketball. It's not basketball, it's sport's version of breakdancing. Recall Hoops Dreams where one of the players went to the camps. He came from a HS program where "traditional" ball was stressed by an old fashioned coach. He said he couldn't even get his hands on the ball because of all the "hot doggin" going on. Somehow these kids have got it in their mind that the mind boggling, superstupendous jam is the way to big $$. Maybe it's good we are now the Bronze medal team. Maybe it will wake us up to the fact that hoops is a team sport coreographed for 5 players not just one. And that D counts for something even though it doesn't make the highlight film on Sportscenter. And that the mid range jumpshot is not obsolete. That the 3 counts one more point than the behind the head reverse double flip over dunk shot that you can't get off when the lane is jammed with 7' guys named Ivan and Sergio. That a true Zone defense is not illegal. That a crisp assist is much prettier to watch than a two step travelling jam from the foul line. I'll take mine old fashioned style.

[slufanskip]

Thicks ... I will have to disagree. I think the NBA does need to change. IMO it is too crowded, the players are so much bigger than when the game was designed. If you put Shaq and Malone in the paint there is no room to get to the basket without being clobbered. I understand that if we would improve our skills, especially shooting that would bring the defense out, but even then the size of the players don'r allow the freedon of movement the game was designed to have. At the lower levels it is not such an issue as the players are not as big

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[jjray]

I think you make a good point 3star. The players for Puerto Rico or Argentina are not unathletic guys. They have athleticism but are also very skilled. That's what we need and should be able to recruit long term at SLU.

[tseugnekillib]

slu72, so that I can better appreciate your comments please tell me how many quality AAU tournaments you have watched in the past 2-3 years?

[3star_recruit]

Athletically I'd rank our recruits as follows

Polk 10

Meyer 7

Lisch 8

Liddell 9

Brown Don't Know

Newborne (From Brad's comments, a 7)

As long as we don't start reaching for guys who are lower than a 7, I think we'll be fine. That's why I keep flip flopping on whether we should offer Kellerman. If he's truly grown two inches to 6'8, then he might be worth an offer in the spring. Kellerman is a decent athlete for a 6'8 guy but not a decent athlete for a 6'6 guy.

For comparison:

Fisher 8

Bryant 8

Drejaj 6 (a reach that has worked, for the most part)

Varner 5

Ohanon 7

I don't really care how athletic my center is because he plays to so close to the basket that he doesn't have to move a great distance. He just needs to position himself well.

[Major Majerus]

I don't know about Polk being a 10; have to reserve judgement until I've seen him a few times. I think Reggie's an 8.5 - he can do a lot of things. I think you're also shortchanging Ike at 7 - if he could leave his thought processes on automatic and just play, I think he's right up there with Reggie. Haven't seen Lisch yet either, but enough have for me to accept he's the whole package.

[Major Majerus]

I remember when Drew Deiner played in the HS all star game in SL; not one touch! It was "bucket" all the way. He came in for a lot of criticism on this board when our whole team was a mite short on athleticism, but the olympic game sure highlights the value of a spot-up shooter.

[Major Majerus]

Careful, here 72; guest is the guru, at least for attendance purposes.

[3star_recruit]

"I think Reggie's an 8.5 - he can do a lot of things"

Sure he can, he's very skilled. But I'm just talking about athleticism.

Polk can throw down alley-oops at 5-8 1/2.

[billiken_roy]

3 star, i might turn up izik a notch, but otherwise i pretty much agree with your run, jump situp and throw a softball scale.

[aj_arete]

and the Billikens. Now with the Billikens, I believe they exhibit a strong work ethic and display good footwork and fundamentals. However, NO ONE is going to persuade me to believe that the Billikens' skill level even approaches the Europeans. What they did to the Americans was no fluke. Their ballhandling, passing, shooting and positioning are conducted at very high levels. When you look at a Pau Gasol and his assortment of post moves, or the Argentines, who were able to wheel and deal inside and outside on the Americans, I see nothing but HIGH level of SKILL.

Please make no mistake, the Europeans are being taught the game at a high level and it's obvious to me that their best athletes are playing the game. Don't want to make this a racial issue, but Kevin Slaten said it best. White coaches have fed this nonsense that white athletes can't play football and basketball because they lack the athleticism. That's a bunch of garbage. It's just that the white athlete is now playing soccer, gymnastics, X-Games and skiing. Look at a Jeremy Bloom, who lost his bid to play another year at Colorado. If this world-class skier had devoted his efforts toward playing wide receiver, my guess is that he would have been a star.

[Quality Is Job 1]

All foreigners aren't Europeans. Puerto Rico and Argentina aren't in Europe.

[3star_recruit]

It's all relative. As far as big forwards are concerned I'd rank them like this:

Ohanon 7

Curtis Withers 8

Jason Maxiell 9

There aren't any Kenyon Martin level athletes at the big forward position in Conference USA right now so I wouldn't give anyone a 10.

[Quality Is Job 1]

> Thicks ... I will have to disagree. I think the NBA does

>need to change. IMO it is too crowded, the players are so

>much bigger than when the game was designed. If you put Shaq

>and Malone in the paint there is no room to get to the

>basket without being clobbered. I understand that if we

>would improve our skills, especially shooting that would

>bring the defense out, but even then the size of the players

>don'r allow the freedon of movement the game was designed to

>have. At the lower levels it is not such an issue as the

>players are not as big

You're assuming that the only way to score is to get to the basket. That's not true. You're familiar with inside-out basketball, aren't you? Let's say Shaq and Malone are clogging the paint and a guard drives into the lane. Assuming the guy defending the guard follows him into the paint, then there could be four players on the perimeter guarded by just two defenders. If forwards and centers are skilled at shooting beyond 12 feet, then they could take advantage of Shaq and Malone hanging out in the point. Once they do, Shaq and Malone can't afford to hang out in the paint any longer, and the paint opens up.

I stand by my statement that the NBA doesn't need to change -- just the players who play in the NBA.

Just because a guy is 6-10 and 275 pounds doesn't mean he can't shoot a 17-foot shot. Everyone should develop as many baskeball skills as possible, regardless of height or position. One of the things that made Josh Fisher so effective was his ability to post up, despite the fact that he's just a 6-1 guard.

[Quality Is Job 1]

[slufanskip]

I agree with what you say ... and yes I understand the nuances of the game very well ... It is a fact though that there is less room on the court today then there was 30 years ago. The players are much bigger and much more athletic ... but yes as noted less skilled. My first step though would be to widen the lane.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[3star_recruit]

Well he certainly is coordinated for a 6'9 guy. But I really don't see where he jumps any higher or runs any faster than fellow big forward Chris Sloan, who I also consider a 7.

[slufanskip]

What are we considering as average ... for a college basketball player in CUSA. ...

Is average a 7 ... or is average a 5.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[3star_recruit]

I'd say that average athlete in CUSA is about a 7. The average athlete in MAC would be about a 6. The average athlete in the ACC would be about a 8.