OT: St. Louis professional sports discussion (2015)

[Bay Area Billiken]

The owner with the most money in this contest, Kroenke, got what he wanted, just like the SJ Mercury News columnist said some time ago.

The NFL wanted back into LA. Many outside STL believe the Rams should have never left LA, and even more so, Los Angeles, not Anaheim, where they were last located, When the Rams were good and played at the LA Memorial Coliseum, where they will likely be playing the next 3 years, they drew massive crowds. Rosenbloom's move to Anaheim involved a real estate deal, but in the process he moved away from affluent West LA and his fanbase, including his Hollywood fanbase and into a baseball stadium expanded for football much like Candlestick Park was before it.

The latest is the Chargers have a 1 year option to move to LA, if not exercised, the option supposedly reverts to the Raiders. The NFL does not want the Raiders back in LA. Both are getting $100M additional from the league for new stadia if they stay put, which is ironic since Goodell had such a cow about the St. Louis Task Force stadium plan getting the same additional $100M.

I would not be surprised if the Chargers stay in San Diego where they belong. And the Raiders stay for now in Oakland where they belong.

Now St. Louis becomes the new pawn, replacing LA, as NFL owners make their stadium demands on cities.

[Dwayne's_World]

We would be fine if we had a top flight college basketball team. The NFL has a completely inferior product to D1 basketball and always has. The potential in this town that SLU is not capitalizing on is a damned shame. Even when we blow we get 5k in the arena. A good team could pack in 20k easily if we wanted. Will Pestello give a damn? Thats the only sports story i care about.

With the Rams gone, now is the time to be capitalizing on casual sports fans in St Louis. Unfortunately, I don't really believe that SLU's AD is ready to take that step.

[CBFan]

I haven't been to Qualcomm Stadium in years, but have been told it has not been maintained in the best of shape. It was fine when I was there some time ago, a nice stadium. The San Diego fans have supported the Chargers for a long time, in big attendance numbers, and do not deserve this at all.

I have been an Oakland Raiders season ticket holder since the Raiders returned in 1995. The Oakland Coliseum has issues, but is not the dump it is portrayed. Yes, there have been a couple of well publicized sewage issues. But those are rare exceptions, not the rule. Part of the Coliseum sits below the water table. My seats are 20 yard line, 3rd level seats on the Coliseum Bowl side (Raiders' sideline). I get a good view of the action. I have also been a guest in a Coliseum luxury box, which are just fine, along with the Clubs on each side of the field. The Coliseum is good enough for only 10 NFL football games, only 8 of which count.

Oakland was the one city that stood up this time to the NFL Cartel- no taxpayers money for a new stadium. Oakland benefits from fortuitous circumstances this time, while still under the threat of relocation. But the Oakland Raiders belong in Oakland. Most of all, the Raiders' owner is the one of the three who does not want to move.

Kroenke forced Spanos' hand by Kroenke's move on LA. Without LA, Spanos loses his leverage over San Diego. The situation is fluid, but I could still see the Chargers staying in San Diego, as Spanos has been leery of partnering as second fiddle with Kroenke.

I was still at SLU when St. Louis divorced itself from Bidwill's Football Cardinals. I was young then, as some would say out here, green behind the ears. But I did not agree with the way St. Louis turned on its own team, irrespective of how bad the Big Red were then. The Bidwillian Big Red were incompetent, but never boring. St. Louis made the judgment that it would not win with Bidwill. The rest is history. Now the Big Red, run by Bidwill's son, a SLU graduate, are one of the best teams in the NFL.

The Oakland fans are great fans and I am happy that those fans will be rewarded by the NFL with the team and stadium upgrades. Same goes for San Diego fans, they deserve to have a team. St. Louis deserves a team also but this is business and Scam Krakey's LA plan is the best for the LA market. In hindsight I wished St. Louis would have worked with the Bidwill's, that said I was one of those that wanted a commitment from the Bidwill family to improve the product first stadium second, I was wrong. Scam Krakey fleeced St. Louis money as a 40 percent owner and knew he would relocate the team to LA when Georgia passed allowing Scam the first shot at the other 60 percent. Scam is a villain that could have allowed Shadid Kahn to buy the team and keep it in St. Louis but Scam wanted more billions and did not care about anyone in St. Louis. Boycott the NFL starting this weekend. Go Bills

[cheeseman]

First of all a 100 million will not solve the stadium issues in San Diego and Oakland - a drop in the bucket. The issue here is not about football - Kroenke sees this as simply another real estate deal. He only needed a team to make the stadium center piece work. It could have been either Oakland or San Diego. He decided that he wanted the whole thing and he screwed some other owners but in the long term, he sees this as a real estate deal. Don't be surprised if he sells the team not long after his stadium opens. Why do you think he did not want to share anything other than renting the stadium to the Chargers - he doesn't care about football/Rams all he wants to do is make it work from a real estate stand point. So if it works that way then his ownership of the team is irrelevant.

[CBFan]

First of all a 100 million will not solve the stadium issues in San Diego and Oakland - a drop in the bucket. The issue here is not about football - Kroenke sees this as simply another real estate deal. He only needed a team to make the stadium center piece work. It could have been either Oakland or San Diego. He decided that he wanted the whole thing and he screwed some other owners but in the long term, he sees this as a real estate deal. Don't be surprised if he sells the team not long after his stadium opens. Why do you think he did not want to share anything other than renting the stadium to the Chargers - he doesn't care about football/Rams all he wants to do is make it work from a real estate stand point. So if it works that way then his ownership of the team is irrelevant.

I agree, this has always been about money as far as Kroenke and the NFL is concerned. Moving the team and selling them is good business for both parties however what about the other franchises that Kroenke owns like the Nuggets and the Avalanche? Were those franchises purchased with the idea of selling them for profit?

[Box and Won]

Now St. Louis becomes the new pawn, replacing LA, as NFL owners make their stadium demands on cities.

I'd like to see local leadership come out and say that STL has no plans to pursue another team or build a stadium, basically withdrawing STL from the whole future relocation charade. I don't know if anyone here has the stones to do that though. Fuock the NFL.

[cheeseman]

I agree, this has always been about money as far as Kroenke and the NFL is concerned. Moving the team and selling them is good business for both parties however what about the other franchises that Kroenke owns like the Nuggets and the Avalanche? Were those franchises purchased with the idea of selling them for profit?

Of course - nobody buys anything with the purpose to lose money. He owns the Pepsi Center in Denver and it would not be viable without tenants so until he decides to sell the Pepsi Center he will keep ownership of those two franchises.

[hsmith19]

I'd like to see local leadership come out and say that STL has no plans to pursue another team or build a stadium, basically withdrawing STL from the whole future relocation charade. I don't know if anyone here has the stones to do that though. Fuock the NFL.

Slay and everyone else in the BoA have already said there's no stadium if the league and a team aren't interested in the proposal as passed. And the league made it very clear it's not interested in the proposal.

[cheeseman]

I'd like to see local leadership come out and say that STL has no plans to pursue another team or build a stadium, basically withdrawing STL from the whole future relocation charade. I don't know if anyone here has the stones to do that though. Fuock the NFL.

No point in saying that. Why burn all your bridges. I would prefer to see us sue the NFL over the process. We should ask for all the money we spent on this farce and ask for what money we will lose by the team not being here. Can we win the suit - not important, the NFL will want to put this behind them so they will want to settle it. All this will do is be a poke in the NFL's eye and the only thing that hurts the NFL is taking money from them no matter how large or small. We might as well get something out this mess.

[hsmith19]

I don't see St. Louis being used as a pawn. All the politicians who supported the proposal were sticking their necks out for an idea they knew was very unpopular, just so they could say they tried to do something. I don't see them sticking their necks out again. Plus, this is the second team we've lost in less than 30 years. How often does a city not named LA lose two teams and then get a third shot? The Washington Nationals are the most recent example I can think of, and they had a 30+ year layover before they got a third shot at a MLB team. Only other one I can think of is the Dodgers and Giants leaving New York to be replaced by the Mets.

[brianstl]

I don't see St. Louis being used as a pawn. All the politicians who supported the proposal were sticking their necks out for an idea they knew was very unpopular, just so they could say they tried to do something. I don't see them sticking their necks out again. Plus, this is the second team we've lost in less than 30 years. How often does a city not named LA lose two teams and then get a third shot? The Washington Nationals are the most recent example I can think of, and they had a 30+ year layover before they got a third shot at a MLB team. Only other one I can think of is the Dodgers and Giants leaving New York to be replaced by the Mets.

I don't think that was the case at all. You had Governor that is term limited and the rest were politicians that tried to do enough to make sure they don't get blamed for losing the Rams and so they can tell the labor unions they were there for them. Slay and Nixon sticking there neck out there would have been putting together something addressing the situation before the team could get out of the lease. They both were in office six years ago. Where were they then?

That said, we shouldn't be spending hundreds of millions of dollars of public money so that a billionaire can have a new stadium.

[hsmith19]

I'm not talking about Nixon or even Slay. I'm talking specifically about Reed and French, who were the ringleaders in getting the bill passed in spite of both seeming to harbor political aspirations beyond their current offices. And to a lesser extend their allies like Moore. The politically expedient thing for both Reed and French to do would've been to draw another contrast with Slay by pounding the table and engaging in the naked demagoguery you saw from the young white hipsters on the Board, namely Green and Ogilvie. If the Rams left and they hadn't supported the bill, they still could've added losing an NFL team to the list of things to blame on Slay.

[Box and Won]

I would prefer to see us sue the NFL over the process. We should ask for all the money we spent on this farce and ask for what money we will lose by the team not being here.

I am on board with this.

[JMM28]

The Rammer has come down from the mount to speak on this issue.

[brianstl]

No point in saying that. Why burn all your bridges. I would prefer to see us sue the NFL over the process. We should ask for all the money we spent on this farce and ask for what money we will lose by the team not being here. Can we win the suit - not important, the NFL will want to put this behind them so they will want to settle it. All this will do is be a poke in the NFL's eye and the only thing that hurts the NFL is taking money from them no matter how large or small. We might as well get something out this mess.

You want to do the same if the NGA decides to move to the east side or when the next non sports business decides to leave town?

[johnbj14]

So I know the city still owes money on EJD, which will be paid regardless, but what happens now with the stadium? Seems wasteful to have a large venue like that sitting vacant.

[hsmith19]

You want to do the same if the NGA decides to move to the east side or when the next non sports business decides to leave town?

As much as I hope it stays in the city limits, NGA to the metro east would just make the most sense. And you probably wouldn't have to kick people out of their houses to put it there.

[hsmith19]

So I know the city still owes money on EJD, which will be paid regardless, but what happens now with the stadium? Seems wasteful to have a large venue like that sitting vacant.

The shriller anti-stadium Aldermen have been insisting there will magically be more convention organizers interested in using the space now that September-December aren't blacked out by an NFL team. Which ignores the reality that it's been underused even in the offseason and has never drawn as many events as were projected when it opened. But losing an NFL team is supposed to finally fix all that.

[brianstl]

The shriller anti-stadium Aldermen have been insisting there will magically be more convention organizers interested in using the space now that September-December aren't blacked out by an NFL team. Which ignores the reality that it's been underused even in the offseason and has never drawn as many events as were projected when it opened. But losing an NFL team is supposed to finally fix all that.

It wasn't just them saying that. The Mayor, the Governor, Peacock, etc. have said the same thing. Except they were stating that was a plus for a new stadium over renovating the dome for a NFL team as Kroenke proposed in arbitration.

[hsmith19]

Yeah, and it was stupid when Peacock said it too. But his scenario is not the one that came to pass. Now we're stuck paying the bonds on a former NFL venue without an NFL team to show for it. The anti-stadium aldermen are the ones who got their wish, so we'll see what they do about putting lipstick on this albatross of a dome we've got now.

[JMM28]

Yeah, and it was stupid when Peacock said it too. But his scenario is not the one that came to pass. Now we're stuck paying the bonds on a former NFL venue without an NFL team to show for it. The anti-stadium aldermen are the ones who got their wish, so we'll see what they do about putting lipstick on this albatross of a dome we've got now.

Does the city have any ownership in the defaulted hotel project at all? Or do they still owe money on that? I never saw how that all went down. They were an early adopter of the "build a connected hotel and conventions will flock to you" scam as well.

[brianstl]

Does the city have any ownership in the defaulted hotel project at all? Or do they still owe money on that? I never saw how that all went down. They were an early adopter of the "build a connected hotel and conventions will flock to you" scam as well.

St Louis City has always been a sucker for almost any big expensive plan that says it will be a silver bullet for the city's problems as long as the right people make some money off it.

[hsmith19]

Does the city have any ownership in the defaulted hotel project at all? Or do they still owe money on that? I never saw how that all went down. They were an early adopter of the "build a connected hotel and conventions will flock to you" scam as well.

Not sure, but I didn't think the City had any ownership in it. Unlike some other cities that fell for that model, they got a private developer to fund most of it. I'm anxious to see whether the boutique hotels over at the Chemical Building and the one next door work out. This is the third or fourth time they've tried to put one in the Chemical Building.

[Pistol]

So I know the city still owes money on EJD, which will be paid regardless, but what happens now with the stadium? Seems wasteful to have a large venue like that sitting vacant.

It sure is wasteful. Which is why it should remain standing, as a monument to the empty promises that come with civic expenditures on stadiums.

Never forget.

[hsmith19]

Except the Dome is unique even among all large-scale urban renewal projects in terms of wastefulness and empty promises. No other city has ever given a team as quick and easy of an out while spending so much money as St. Louis did. And how many other cities have broken ground on a publicly funded stadium before a team is even lined up?