Youth And Development

[Bizziken]

I agree you never want it to happen to you, but teams with recent success and good facilities and stuff do have seasons in the crapper. I'm a little surprised what's going on 120 miles to the west isn't helping soothe the frustration more. Yeah, I know that's a different situation as well, but there are some similarities too (one coach died; one coach left for the bright lights of Tulsa). Their rankings aren't as bad, but it's looking like they might not win another game all season, and if so they will be lucky to end up in the top 200 RPI too, and that's after playing one of the toughest schedules in the nation by most metrics.

I'm just curious (not in a sarcastic way)...can you/the board name one? Our expected 'end of season' RPI is 247. After a cursory search I can't find a single program (one in which we aspire to be like and is similarly situated in terms of Conference affiliation, size, etc) who has had THIS crappy a season in recent memory. I mean, even Creighton and Marquette (who are having similar 'down' seasons) are in the RPI Top 150. I know they're in a tougher conference, but their Non-Con SOS are both 100 spots better than ours.

Since Fordham has the tie-breaker, there is a very real possibility that we could finish last in the A-10. That is absolutely crazy and, in my opinion, goes beyond 'youth being youth'.

With all of that being said, I expect the sloppiness to get much better next season. I also expect to see a marked improvement in the offense given the familiarity that comes with a year under the belt (how could it not, right???). We really need preseason, non-preparatory practice that can't be found during the season. We've had 15 games within 10 points. We are 8-7 in those games, which isn't too bad (that's kind of scary). 'In the 'blowouts' we played Vandy and @Dayton well for 1 half each, and were in the @Fordham and Rhode Island games until the last few minutes. Hopefully this group of freshmen have 3 postseasons in them...

[hsmith19]

A lot of their shots (not just threes) seemed to be going in and out, around and out, etc. That seemed lucky to me and made it a shame not to capitalize on that with a W, I agree, but us going 1-11 just seems more uncharacteristic to me than them going 6-22.

[SLUfan_42]

I just wanna be nationally relevent again that was so cool

[hsmith19]

I'm just curious (not in a sarcastic way)...can you/the board name one? Our expected 'end of season' RPI is 247. After a cursory search I can't find a single program (one in which we aspire to be like and is similarly situated in terms of Conference affiliation, size, etc) who has had THIS crappy a season in recent memory. I mean, even Creighton and Marquette (who are having similar 'down' seasons) are in the RPI Top 150. I know they're in a tougher conference, but their Non-Con SOS are both 100 spots better than ours.

Well, I tried to point out the obvious Mizzou example. Their rankings aren't as bad as ours, but they're getting pretty awful. They're not an "elite" program, but they do have a ton of advantages we don't. And this is hardly the first time in recent memory they've been taken down a peg like this.

Butler last year is another one (I know, I know, "different circumstances"). They were exactly 150 in RPI, but I never would've guessed that without looking it up.

[waldo027]

Under Crews, Evans was a 2 time first team all A-10. Loe became a significantly better interior player in his senior year. Jett won conference player of the year. To say that players didn't develop the past 2 years is just not true. If you want to talk about players recruited by Crews, then it's an extremely short time to pass this judgment. It's halfway through their freshman or sophomore seasons.

This year's team is so bad because:

- The "true point guard" (put it in quotes because I don't really know what this phrase means) that we need so badly transferred to Valpo. If he were still here he'd be a junior playing 30+ mins.

- The senior leader is out for the year with a dislocated shoulder. I know he's not a superstar, but he would be the leader of the team and significantly help the team win.

- The other senior is the biggest bust in my time closely following this program (about 12 years). He was a solid 3 star recruit, had a lot of praise coming out of high school from RM, and he's worse than Bryce Husak. "Hands of stone coated in oil" sums it up.

- Yacoubou looks a former 4 star recruit, and also looks like a guy run off from Villanova. He can make some nasty drive and reverse layup, then later fall over while dribbling. I hope he can become a lot more consistent as a senior. He'll continue to get minutes this season because of his rebounding.

- McBroom is 5-9, not particularly quick or explosive for his size. He doesn't have particularly good passing skills or court vision either. He can shoot the corner 3 really well, and that's about it. He is the 5th guard right now behind Yacoubou, Roby, Bartley, and Crawford. I'm not sure what he's going to do next year.

- The freshmen and sophomores show a lot of flashes but are really inconsistent. They need more strength, speed, and experience which will come in time. They need to spend a lot of quality time with Coach Schork.

Nick, if Tatum comes here, he won't be playing with Manning, Yacoubou, and McBroom, He will be playing with the current sophomores, freshmen, Welmer, and Neufeld. Tatum knows this.

The future will be a lot, lot better. How much better is yet to be seen.

[Pistol]

With all of that being said, I expect the sloppiness to get much better next season. I also expect to see a marked improvement in the offense given the familiarity that comes with a year under the belt (how could it not, right???). We really need preseason, non-preparatory practice that can't be found during the season. We've had 15 games within 10 points. We are 8-7 in those games, which isn't too bad (that's kind of scary). 'In the 'blowouts' we played Vandy and @Dayton well for 1 half each, and were in the @Fordham and Rhode Island games until the last few minutes. Hopefully this group of freshmen have 3 postseasons in them...

I hope you're right, but why do you think this will be the case?

We hoped the sophomores would be better by now, but they're not. We hoped Manning would have made a slow progression into a solid big, but he hasn't. Glaze didn't show much of an arc before his injury. McBroom has minimal PG skills in a half court offense. The offense as a whole has somehow managed to get worse - and as others have pointed out, it really wasn't good last year. We got bailed out on the broad shoulders of Jett in a lot of very close games. It wasn't as horrible as it now is, but you can't argue that it was consistent or fluid.

[Pistol]

Under Crews, Evans was a 2 time first team all A-10. Loe became a significantly better interior player in his senior year. Jett won conference player of the year. To say that players didn't develop the past 2 years is just not true. If you want to talk about players recruited by Crews, then it's an extremely short time to pass this judgment. It's halfway through their freshman or sophomore seasons.

....

if Tatum comes here, he won't be playing with Manning, Yacoubou, and McBroom, He will be playing with the current sophomores, freshmen, Welmer, and Neufeld. Tatum knows this.

The future will be a lot, lot better. How much better is yet to be seen.

Based on what? I genuinely want to hear reasoned counterarguments.

Giving Crews credit for the achievements of the 2014 class is a stretch. They were well on their way before he took over, and during his first year his whole mission was just to keep things as Majerus had them. Crews hasn't seen a whole class from recruitment to graduation, but he's in his third full year and we have seen minimal to no improvement out of the guys who have been with him in multiple seasons.

Do you think pointing to this freshman class along with Neufeld and Welmer is a selling point for Jayson Tatum? That's only a selling point if he wants a completely anonymous supporting cast. You realize he plays with the US National Team for his age group, right? That the other top 5 recruits are good buddies of his and will play alongside him in the McDonald's All-American Game in 2016? Sorry, but being teammates with Brett Jolly and Elliott Welmer is not going to win him over.

[BigMouthBilliken]

I just wanna be nationally relevent again that was so cool

+1

[Bizziken]

I hope you're right, but why do you think this will be the case?

We hoped the sophomores would be better by now, but they're not. We hoped Manning would have made a slow progression into a solid big, but he hasn't. Glaze didn't show much of an arc before his injury. McBroom has minimal PG skills in a half court offense. The offense as a whole has somehow managed to get worse - and as others have pointed out, it really wasn't good last year. We got bailed out on the broad shoulders of Jett in a lot of very close games. It wasn't as horrible as it now is, but you can't argue that it was consistent or fluid.

Purpose. Right now we look lost, and are hesitant to commit to anything: a pass, drive, shot, whatever. Hopefully with a year of experience in the offense, the players will 'trust' it (according to Crews) and go into the offense with more of a purpose.

[Pistol]

Purpose. Right now we look lost, and are hesitant to commit to anything: a pass, drive, shot, whatever. Hopefully with a year of experience in the offense, the players will 'trust' it (according to Crews) and go into the offense with more of a purpose.

We already had a coach who said 'the offense will take care of itself' if they got the fundamentals down. His name was Brad Soderberg. His teams did not score points.

I'm not sold on this philosophy. When guys look as lost as ours do on the offensive end, they need more than purpose. They're clearly not good improvisors. They need a plan.

[Bizziken]

Well, I tried to point out the obvious Mizzou example. Their rankings aren't as bad as ours, but they're getting pretty awful. They're not an "elite" program, but they do have a ton of advantages we don't. And this is hardly the first time in recent memory they've been taken down a peg like this.

Butler last year is another one (I know, I know, "different circumstances"). They were exactly 150 in RPI, but I never would've guessed that without looking it up.

Yeah, I know of programs that have 'down' years (like Butler's last year)...but that's not truly atrocious. I was just trying to find some empirical comfort food to justify this season's futility. There are natural ebbs and flows in every non-elite program, but it just seems like this ebb is historical in nature, at least from a purely numbers perspective

[Bizziken]

We already had a coach who said 'the offense will take care of itself' if they got the fundamentals down. His name was Brad Soderberg. His teams did not score points.

I'm not sold on this philosophy. When guys look as lost as ours do on the offensive end, they need more than purpose. They're clearly not good improvisors. They need a plan.

I hear you. But based on how bad our offense has been this season, I can't fathom it being the same (or worse) next season with more experienced players. I also think the offensive talent level of this team compared to those coached by Sodie is much, much better. Granted, they have to actually go out and prove it. As we saw with our previous freshmen (and freshmen in general), the hesitance and timidness wears off with more experience. It will be interesting to see if there is a fundamental problem with the offensive philosophy, or if the players just aren't used to it yet

[iamitalian85]

I understand all the pessimism given some of the results, but this team has shown promise/flashes. Is it brutal to watch at times right now. Absolutely. They are young and inconsistent. The bright side is all we lose next year is Manning. We aren't losing anyone whose production will be hard to replace. Also, we lost close games to the top of the conference by one possession/one play. Is it that hard to believe that essentially the same team with more strength, experience, and maturity can make an extra play to win similar games we are losing this year?

[SLU_Nick]

Based on what? I genuinely want to hear reasoned counterarguments.

Giving Crews credit for the achievements of the 2014 class is a stretch. They were well on their way before he took over, and during his first year his whole mission was just to keep things as Majerus had them. Crews hasn't seen a whole class from recruitment to graduation, but he's in his third full year and we have seen minimal to no improvement out of the guys who have been with him in multiple seasons.

Do you think pointing to this freshman class along with Neufeld and Welmer is a selling point for Jayson Tatum? That's only a selling point if he wants a completely anonymous supporting cast. You realize he plays with the US National Team for his age group, right? That the other top 5 recruits are good buddies of his and will play alongside him in the McDonald's All-American Game in 2016? Sorry, but being teammates with Brett Jolly and Elliott Welmer is not going to win him over.

This is shaping up to be one of greatest hand-wringing threads in billikens.com history and I am proud to be a part of it.

I agree with Pistol that I am in search of well-reasoned counter arguments as to why we will be better. The "it can't get any worse" argument does not hold water. The worst case scenario is that the players stop buying what the coach is selling...I think we are close to being there.

Frankly, I would side with the players. The moves this coaching staff has made are beyond head-scratching.

[TheChosenOne]

Frankly, I side with the players. The moves this coaching staff has made are beyond head-scratching.

Are the players questioning the coaches?

[SLU_Nick]

Are the players questioning the coaches?

Fixed it.

*would side with the players

[hsmith19]

The "it can't get any worse" argument does not hold water. The worst case scenario is that the players stop buying what the coach is selling...I think we are close to being there.

What happens in your scenario of things getting even worse, then? Everybody transfers next year, Crews gets fired, May begs Ron Ekker out of retirement, we finally go D-2, and then lose to the Blackburn Beavers at home?

[slufan13]

If you're going to give Crews a lot of credit for what happened with Jett, Evans, Loe then you need to fault him for the regression of McBroom, the nothingness from Manning, and the nothingness of the sophs outside of Crawford.

I prefer to wait until next year to see what Crews can do. These last 2 years weren't his guys (would you criticize him if we had played horribly the last 2 years or passed it off as it not being his team?) and this year is too soon.

The trend isn't great, but let's see how the guys develop next year and if they start to buy-in and "trust" the offense.

I look at the last 7 games plus the A10 Tourney as how my expectations will be going into next year. I think we've hit rock bottom. Let's see if we're tough enough and good enough to start the climb even though all seems lost for this season.

[waldo027]

Based on what? I genuinely want to hear reasoned counterarguments.

Giving Crews credit for the achievements of the 2014 class is a stretch. They were well on their way before he took over, and during his first year his whole mission was just to keep things as Majerus had them. Crews hasn't seen a whole class from recruitment to graduation, but he's in his third full year and we have seen minimal to no improvement out of the guys who have been with him in multiple seasons.

Do you think pointing to this freshman class along with Neufeld and Welmer is a selling point for Jayson Tatum? That's only a selling point if he wants a completely anonymous supporting cast. You realize he plays with the US National Team for his age group, right? That the other top 5 recruits are good buddies of his and will play alongside him in the McDonald's All-American Game in 2016? Sorry, but being teammates with Brett Jolly and Elliott Welmer is not going to win him over.

Manning will be gone. He's addition by subtraction at this point. I expect Neufeld to be better than him from day 1. The team loses zero key players this offseason, unless there's an unexpected transfer. McBroom also should be buried on the bench. The rest of the core players will have a year of experience under their belts. They will do a lot of lifting, conditioning, and shooting in the offseason.

Crews deserves a lot of credit for holding things together after Majerus's passing. The season was really looking like it might go off the rails, but it ended up as one of the best seasons in Billiken history. No doubt he started with a lot of talent, but the 5 seniors improved from their sophomore to senior seasons. He deserves some credit for that too. Stuff like "the players coached themselves" is total nonsense in my opinion.

Our major selling point to Tatum should be playing at home in front of friends/family in a familiar place, especially if he already has decided he's staying only 1 year. But I also think we'll have an NCAA tournament caliber team in 16-17 even without him, so he can both stay home and win. He knows that he won't be playing with Manning failing at every rebound, McBroom not passing to him or anyone else, and Yacoubou falling over while dribbling.

This season is a total aberration, based on the reasons I said earlier. I expect at least middle of the pack in conference next year. I'll eat crow if I'm wrong. A lot of posters here seem to think that this is a long term trend and we'll be stuck behind Fordham for the near future, which I strongly disagree with.

[Bizziken]

I agree with Pistol that I am in search of well-reasoned counter arguments as to why we will be better. The "it can't get any worse" argument does not hold water. The worst case scenario is that the players stop buying what the coach is selling...I think we are close to being there.

I generally agree with that assessment (even though I just used that argument). It is an ambiguous, non-evidence based argument...But, to be totally honest, the offense simply cannot get worse next year (unless key players transfer). Familiarity with the scheme (if there is one) and experience has to account for at least SOME improvement. We have a looooong way to go on the offensive side of the ball, so I'm not saying we WILL improve dramatically, but I'm certainly expecting, at worst a slight increase in offensive efficiency. And you're right...that's all contingent upon the players continuing to have faith in their coach

[MB73]

so many professional coaches on here... a useless thread to begin with since it is too early to make so many radical statements.

• 6 freshmen, matters.
• 3 sophs who didn't play much last year, matters.
• a junior who sat out all last year, matters.

that's 10 players.

key issue is that no one has stepped up consistently, and that matters.... eg. we all thought (me, too) that yarborough was good for 10-16 ppg after his nice run several week ago... but he flattened out.

how many thought reynolds was a star after that anomaly right before thanksgiving?

crews wishes that some would have excelled quickly and made his rotations and substitution decisions easier, but there has not been adequate differentiation to settle on an 8 man + one type of steady rotation.

so we've played some bad games, folded at the end of several (like last night) when we had a chance to beat some good teams.

but let's not cite crews, with his credentials, for issues with player development and all of that bulls h*t. sure, it is the right of fans to criticize, i agree, but this is premature. the argument that freshmen laden / young teams do not hinder winning is invalid. it is that combined with the overall circumstances that matters.

i am not happy with the results thus far, but we coulda, shoulda, woulda won some big games. in this situation moral victories count.

as to the comparison to the team several years ago, it is too early to say for christsake. i would have to say it is likely the previous teams players will prove to be better than the current ones since their success was unprecedented at slu, but the current team has the potential, a chance, to match their predecessors.

[brianstl]

One area where we have gotten a lot better is on the defensive end. We can't compare to team's from the recent past when it comes to defense - we still give up too many good looks from 3 and rebound poorly, but the defense is a LOT better. In fact, the defense has been good enough to put us into position to win some games. Our offense is dreadful.

We were ranked in the 230's in defensive efficiency heading into last night's game. We got a big boost from last night and rank 186 today. That is still in the bottom half of all D1 teams.

I want to see it for more than one game before I proclaim our defense improved.

[Tonka]

so many professional coaches on here... a useless thread to begin with since it is too early to make so many radical statements.

• 6 freshmen, matters.
• 3 sophs who didn't play much last year, matters.
• a junior who sat out all last year, matters.

that's 10 players.

key issue is that no one has stepped up consistently, and that matters.... eg. we all thought (me, too) that yarborough was good for 10-16 ppg after his nice run several week ago... but he flattened out.

how many thought reynolds was a star after that anomaly right before thanksgiving?

crews wishes that some would have excelled quickly and made his rotations and substitution decisions easier, but there has not been adequate differentiation to settle on an 8 man + one type of steady rotation.

so we've played some bad games, folded at the end of several (like last night) when we had a chance to beat some good teams.

but let's not cite crews, with his credentials, for issues with player development and all of that bulls h*t. sure, it is the right of fans to criticize, i agree, but this is premature. the argument that freshmen laden / young teams do not hinder winning is invalid. it is that combined with the overall circumstances that matters.

i am not happy with the results thus far, but we coulda, shoulda, woulda won some big games. in this situation moral victories count.

as to the comparison to the team several years ago, it is too early to say for christsake. i would have to say it is likely the previous teams players will prove to be better than the current ones since their success was unprecedented at slu, but the current team has the potential, a chance, to match their predecessors.

MB, I don't particularly think this is a useless thread. I actually think there has been some great thoughts and points throughout the thread.

Sometimes, you just can't pinpoint the reason for the lack of success. I really believe we are struggling this year with our inside game - much worse than I ever thought we would. We really have no inside game. I love MY but he will much more effective with a genuine big man that can play both ends of the floor. Manning, Gillmann, and Jolly have just not stepped up. I don't blame Gillmann or Jolly as big men take a longer to develop. Manning is Manning and not a factor in any regard. Glaze's injury does hurt, but really hard to measure how much. I think his energy and leadership may have been the difference in some of the games. Would we have been good with Glaze this year? Nope. But, definitely better.

If you look at the variables this year, I'm not really that shocked we are this bad. I pray one or two of our big men will step in and contribute on both ends next year or even with the improved play of Ash, Milik, Roby, and Bartley it could still be a mediocre year.

[MB73]

MB, I don't particularly think this is a useless thread. I actually think there has been some great thoughts and points throughout the thread.

Sometimes, you just can't pinpoint the reason for the lack of success. I really believe we are struggling this year with our inside game - much worse than I ever thought we would. We really have no inside game. I love MY but he will much more effective with a genuine big man that can play both ends of the floor. Manning, Gillmann, and Jolly have just not stepped up. I don't blame Gillmann or Jolly as big men take a longer to develop. Manning is Manning and not a factor in any regard. Glaze's injury does hurt, but really hard to measure how much. I think his energy and leadership may have been the difference in some of the games. Would we have been good with Glaze this year? Nope. But, definitely better.

If you look at the variables this year, I'm not really that shocked we are this bad. I pray one or two of our big men will step in and contribute on both ends next year or even with the improved play of Ash, Milik, Roby, and Bartley it could still be a mediocre year.

agree, let's not say "useless", but "futile".

and you correctly cite that we have no inside game, on other threads i have stated several times we are doomed this year, trapped with no experienced bigs (gillman-jolly-yarborough: freshmen / agbeko-lancona: sophs with little playing time vs what we were used to the last several years conklin-ellis-loe-remekun-evans-glaze).

[JettFlight5]

I think the "can't pinpoint it" is right.

If there was a way to pinpoint it, a man who makes his living coaching basketball would fix it.

MB is 100% dead on with one point: It takes impact bigs, and right now, that dude ain't here.