Which would you prefer...?

[TheChosenOne]

Preach on, sir. Preach on.

The culture change at SLU is one thing we can all be proud of.

It may be a little soon to say there has been a culture change. At this point we hit on a couple of recruiting classes and they led us to heights never witnessed in the history of the program. I think the coaches that recruited those kids are all gone at this point. For there to be a culture change we will need to keep that momentum going and consistently win at a high level like a Xavier or Gonzaga. Just look at programs like SIUC who have had a nice string of success, but could not continue it. We will find out over these next couple of seasons whether we have truly turned the corner or were just a flash in the pan thanks to a couple of great classes.

[JettFlight5]

It may be a little soon to say there has been a culture change. At this point we hit on a couple of recruiting classes and they led us to heights never witnessed in the history of the program. I think the coaches that recruited those kids are all gone at this point. For there to be a culture change we will need to keep that momentum going and consistently win at a high level like a Xavier or Gonzaga. Just look at programs like SIUC who have had a nice string of success, but could not continue it. We will find out over these next couple of seasons whether we have truly turned the corner or were just a flash in the pan thanks to a couple of great classes.

Think about where this program was when Rick Majerus took over. There's a real change in everything since then.

If you buy recruiting rankings at all, this class brought in by Jim Crews outranks any of Coach Majerus's classes. Does that make them better players? Who knows? But what it does do is show that this program is competing at levels it has not done before.

[brianstl]

Correct.

We were good the two years in the MCC's history where there were 2 other good teams in the conference. The MCC did get 2 bids both those years, but the bids were not exactly at large worthy. In 88-89 Evansville dominated the league and only received an 11 seed. Xavier won the conference tournament and was a 14. If Xavier didn't win the tourney they aren't in. Same scenario the next season. Xavier in as a 6 seed, Dayton wins the conference tourney and squeaks in with a 12. They weren't in without winning the conference tournament.

The year we should have made noise was 87-88, the league was weaker that season, but we crapped the bed all year. That was a disappointment. We make the NCAAs that season I think it would have changed the complexion of the MCC, it would have become a true multi bid league and the conference might still exist. Next season we had no depth beyond the big 3. We were clearly outclassed by Evansville and Xavier. Bonner's sr year we had more depth but once again choked away several winnable home games and for some reason played 2 non conference games during the conference season and lost both of them. Then a 7 win Loyola kicked our ass in the mcc tournament.

Still there was a failure to capitalize on our success 86-87 by Grawer. An NCAA tourney bid would have been nice but there was a natural progression there, Grawer couldn't sustain the success. A different coach would have had the team poised for a breakthrough in 90-91, instead SLU begins to tank.

90-91 would have been Upchurch's final season if it hadn't been for the administration. Want to know why success wasn't capitalized on, look no further. That move cut the program off at the knees when it came to recruiting city kids.

[Box and Won]

90-91 would have been Upchurch's final season if it hadn't been for the administration. Want to know why success wasn't capitalized on, look no further. That move cut the program off at the knees when it came to recruiting city kids.

Did Upchurch get hurt that year? Looks like he sat out that season.

Here are his stats:

87-88: 12.1 points/5.3 rebounds

88-89: 18.8/6.5

89-90: 13.1/7

91-92: 15.7/6.5

Man, he sure would've been nice to have.

From the Houston press guide:

Craig Upchurch

• One of only three players in school history to register 1,800 points and 775 rebounds in their career.

• Ended his career with 1,880 career points, which ranks fourth on Houston’s career scoring list.

• Ranks ninth among Houston’s career rebounding leaders with 797 rebounds

• Was a three-time All-Southwest Conference selection, earning First-Team honors in 1989 and 1990. Was a Second-Team selecion in 1992.

• Helped Houston reach it last two NCAA appearances in 1990 and 1992.

• Was a starting forward on Houston’s 1987-88 team that advanced to the second round of the NIT.

• Named 1988 Newcomer-of-the-Year and Freshman-of-the-Year in the Southwest Conference.

[thetorch]

90-91 would have been Upchurch's final season if it hadn't been for the administration. Want to know why success wasn't capitalized on, look no further. That move cut the program off at the knees when it came to recruiting city kids.

Upchurch was one guy. We recruited plenty of city kids after him. Just none of them were any good. Sure that move hurt us but Grawer sadly like his Soderberg after him could always snag a couple big fish but could never fill in a roster around them.

[David King]

90-91 would have been Upchurch's final season if it hadn't been for the administration. Want to know why success wasn't capitalized on, look no further. That move cut the program off at the knees when it came to recruiting city kids.

If Craig Upchurch had played on the 90-91 team, the Billiken's would be in the Big East right now due to the domino effect.

[brianstl]

Did Upchurch get hurt that year? Looks like he sat out that season.

Here are his stats:

87-88: 12.1 points/5.3 rebounds

88-89: 18.8/6.5

89-90: 13.1/7

91-92: 15.7/6.5

Man, he sure would've been nice to have.

From the Houston press guide:

Craig Upchurch

One of only three players in school history to register 1,800 points and 775 rebounds in their career.

Ended his career with 1,880 career points, which ranks fourth on Houstons career scoring list.

Ranks ninth among Houstons career rebounding leaders with 797 rebounds

Was a three-time All-Southwest Conference selection, earning First-Team honors in 1989 and 1990. Was a Second-Team selecion in 1992.

Helped Houston reach it last two NCAA appearances in 1990 and 1992.

Was a starting forward on Houstons 1987-88 team that advanced to the second round of the NIT.

Named 1988 Newcomer-of-the-Year and Freshman-of-the-Year in the Southwest Conference.

Blew out a knee.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I assume the NIT voters are trolls.

If so, they aren't very smart, as the question wasn't specific to the Billikens, but "your team." Either that, or their team is so bad that they'd be happier with an NIT championship than a cup of coffee in the real Tournament as a doormat for a No. 1 seed.

[SLUMedBilliken15]

Winning is more fun to watch than losing... So I guess that makes me a troll.

Feel free to attack me, but someone asked the question and it is just my opinion.

[NH]

I realize it's a different era now, but is a trip to the NIT a "successful" season?

I don't think most fans consider any NCAA bid a failure, but the NIT is a different animal.

If we make the NIT next year, with a team that returns 0 starters and loses an unprecedented amount of its scoring, I will consider it a successful season and will be happy with the job Coach Crews has done.

[JettFlight5]

If we make the NIT next year, with a team that returns 0 starters and loses an unprecedented amount of its scoring, I will consider it a successful season and will be happy with the job Coach Crews has done.

If we're starting multiple freshmen when the time comes, I'd be OK with it (well, somewhat). A good example would have been the Situation team. If they'd have gotten to the NIT, that would have been big because of the extra games and practices. A senior-dominated team, I would not want an NIT bid because there's nothing to gain at that point.

So if Roby, Reynolds, and others are playing key roles, I'd be fine with the NIT.

[Duff Man]

Winning is more fun to watch than losing... So I guess that makes me a troll.

Feel free to attack me, but someone asked the question and it is just my opinion.

I assume you play video games at the easiest setting with the offsides turned off.

[NH]

If we're starting multiple freshmen when the time comes, I'd be OK with it (well, somewhat). A good example would have been the Situation team. If they'd have gotten to the NIT, that would have been big because of the extra games and practices. A senior-dominated team, I would not want an NIT bid because there's nothing to gain at that point.

So if Roby, Reynolds, and others are playing key roles, I'd be fine with the NIT.

Something we should all keep in mind is that "the situation" team went 12-19. That team had the following players on it: Cody Ellis, Brian Conklin, Mike McCall, Rob Loe, Dwayne Evans and Jordair Jett.

All those guys are some of the better Billikens in recent memory. And that team didn't even come close to sniffing an NIT bid. It's obviously not fair to put a ceiling on next year's team without seeing them play. And hopefully guys like Agbeko, Lancona, Ash, Mcbroom, Manning, Crawford and Glaze can provide some experience that was lacking on the 2010-2011 squad. But people should be careful about what they expect from what will be a very young and unproven roster next season.

[JettFlight5]

Something we should all keep in mind is that "the situation" team went 12-19. That team had the following players on it: Cody Ellis, Brian Conklin, Mike McCall, Rob Loe, Dwayne Evans and Jordair Jett.

All those guys are some of the better Billikens in recent memory. And that team didn't even come close to sniffing an NIT bid. It's obviously not fair to put a ceiling on next year's team without seeing them play. And hopefully guys like Agbeko, Lancona, Ash, Mcbroom, Manning, Crawford and Glaze can provide some experience that was lacking on the 2010-2011 squad. But people should be careful about what they expect from what will be a very young and unproven roster next season.

That is why I think the NIT or 3rd tier tournaments can be good for a young team that doesn't have a lot of game experience (like the guys you mentioned). We'll all see these guys grow up together.

[kshoe]

If we make the NIT next year, with a team that returns 0 starters and loses an unprecedented amount of its scoring, I will consider it a successful season and will be happy with the job Coach Crews has done.

I'd be very happy with an nit bid next year. The last few years have spoiled people as to how hard it is to make the dance. If we can be a bubble team that falls short in a major rebuilding year then id be incredibly impressed with crews and co.

[Duff Man]

to recap

winning > losing

postseason > no postseason

NCAA > NIT > CBI

all that said, simply making the NCAA tournament remains a MAJOR ACCOMPLISHMENT for all but the very elite programs. A MUCH bigger deal than winning the NIT.

The experience gained earning an NCAA bid outweighs the experience gained winning the NIT. You're going to win more meaningful games - and have more fun watching your team - over the course of a full season than ends with an NCAA tournament bid than a season that ends with an NIT championship.

[JettFlight5]

to recap

winning > losing

postseason > no postseason

NCAA > NIT > CBI

all that said, simply making the NCAA tournament remains a MAJOR ACCOMPLISHMENT for all but the very elite programs. A MUCH bigger deal than winning the NIT.

The experience gained earning an NCAA bid outweighs the experience gained winning the NIT. You're going to win more meaningful games - and have more fun watching your team - over the course of a full season than ends with an NCAA tournament bid than a season that ends with an NIT championship.

I think you win the summary award.

[JettFlight5]

If the A-10 is going to remain as strong as it is right now, than a bubble season that may end up on the wrong side of it would be quite the job by Coach Crews.

I hate the very existence of the NIT, but it's going to take 20+ wins to get there.

[hsmith19]

With three straight appearances in the real tourney, I don't think it would take all that great of a season next year to get into the NIT. The 2010 team would've been in the NIT if they weren't such an absolute unknown nationally (other than Majerus being the coach). If next year's team gets anywhere close to where that team ended up (fourth place in an A-10 that was much shallower than next year's will be), it should be a no doubter for the NIT.