billiken_roy Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Kwamain has to be above Lisch. why? lisch has better stats, and had the burden of being the main man for almost his entire career whereby drawing far more encompassing talent from the opposition than mitchell did. lisch played far better defense. lisch had better shooting percentages. the way mitchell's career started i assumed that indeed he would surpass lisch, but in my opinion, that never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Kwamain has to be above Lisch. Lisch has more points, more 3 pointers, better 3 point percentage, better free throw percentage, played better defense. Kwamain was a very good player but I would rate him a little below Lisch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Man Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 why? lisch has better stats, and had the burden of being the main man for almost his entire career whereby drawing far more encompassing talent from the opposition than mitchell did. lisch played far better defense. lisch had better shooting percentages. the way mitchell's career started i assumed that indeed he would surpass lisch, but in my opinion, that never happened. The only year Lisch was the main man was 2007-08. He had Voyoukas and young/good Liddell in 2005-06 and 2006-07, and while Lisch definitely begain 2008-09 as the main man, Kwamain had at least partially assumed that role by the end of the year. The stats are close, but we can all agree Kwamain brought intangibles that don't show up in the box score. Lisch never played in the NCAA tournament. Mitchell never played in a game where his team only scored 20 points. More than anything, I'm putting Kwamain above Lisch on the basis the Lisch - for as great of a player as he was - was best suited as the 2nd or 3rd star. Granted it's not his fault that Liddell regressed or that Soderberg couldn't string another solid recruiting class together. Kwamain could be the star when he had to, and when the supporting cast got better, he shifted his role...but was still ready to assume the star role as needed. It's not even about the stats, it's a question of if you're picking teams and Lisch and Mitchell are the best players in the pool, who do you take first? For my money it's Mitchell, without question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 fan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Dear Lord, Please hurt our striving basketball program with a recruit this April as solid as Kevin Lisch or Kwamaine Mitchell. Billiken Faithful P.S. A second or third bigger player(s) with the heart and level of talent of either KL or KM would be really appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Man Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Lisch has more points, more 3 pointers, better 3 point percentage, better free throw percentage, played better defense. Kwamain was a very good player but I would rate him a little below Lisch Mitchell was a career 347 for 690 (50.3%) from 2. Lisch was 257 for 595 (43.2%) from 2. The stats all even out. You have to look at intangibles. also, how are you quantifying "played better defense"? Kwamain averaged 1.4 steals per game to Lisch's 1.1. Kwamain made 3rd team all league despite having a down year offensively. I'd call the defense a wash between the 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicCityBilliken Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I give the nod to Kwamain, KM was the leader for the A10 championship, CBI run and our 2 NCAA Tourney appearances . During KL's tenure, the team performed poorly in the A10 Tourney and had no post season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 so the fact that kevin had a lesser supporting cast proves mitchell was the better player. ok. that makes a lot of sense. case closed. mitchell must have been better than bonner and david burns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I think they're a wash defensively, for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicCityBilliken Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 mitchell must have been better than bonner and david burns. No, not them. I just feel the leadership Kwamain provided on the court puts him above Kevin. The team didn't do all that well that year he was absent. Also, Kwamain was on several all-A10 teams. I don't recall Kevin earning those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Sigh. Seriously, not sure why anyone wants to debate Roy about Lisch, especially when it is a close call between him and another player. No way is he ever going to go against Lisch in that scenario. That is just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 If I were building a roster and could take one, I'd take Mitchell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'd give the nod to Lisch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 A-10 ALL-DEFENSIVE Kevin Lisch 2006-07 Kevin Lisch 2007-08 I think they're a wash defensively, for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Wherever KM ranks all-time, or in the modern era, I think he's clearly the "face" (or the name really) of the Majerus era. I give him a lot of credit for sticking with everything these many years. Don't know if others feel this way, but more than what we lose on the court, his graduation is a reminder that RM has moved on as well. I have always given Rich Grawer immense credit for bringing this program back from the brink. I give Rick Majerus credit for putting this program on the national map. And just as Spoonball built on Grawer's foundation, I'm hoping that whomever fills the seat permanently can keep us in the national spotlight. Good work KM -- you'll be missed, and you'll go down in our hearts as one of the guys who got us to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOSLU68 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Lisch carried the team; KM often led the team. We were desperate when we had Lisch-desperate for someone to shoot. On the court Lisch was double teamed and beaten up by thug opponents. The KM led team had lots of options. Roder of the Gray ""Douglas years was a true point guard. Mitchell was a shooter (he recognized the value of Willie to get himself free as his opportunities increased the more successful KM became) converted to combo guard just like Lisch. Both KL and KM could be wild and lose the handle. Marques Perry stands out as a senior who finally had permission to be great and by god all of a sudden as a senior he was more than anyone expected. We could say he was unstoppable. Whether hurt or what, KM would dominate some opponents and disappear against others-much Like Monroe Douglas. Roland Gray was more consistent and kept improving. I think Loe would have had a much better year if KM hadn't broken his foot. He would have found Loe useful just like he did Willie. I think we would have lost fewer games if KM was fully available but I also could say the same of JJ about the losses. JJ was hurt the last 5 games? Maybe the most amazing stat of the year is Rob Loe kept playing without major injury and you know the bigs do dish out a lot of punishment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Man Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Sigh. Seriously, not sure why anyone wants to debate Roy about Lisch, especially when it is a close call between him and another player. No way is he ever going to go against Lisch in that scenario. That is just the way it is. I'm not trying to change Roy's mind, just offering the reasons why I disagree with his opinion. so the fact that kevin had a lesser supporting cast proves mitchell was the better player. ok. that makes a lot of sense. case closed. mitchell must have been better than bonner and david burns. Mitchell did more with less 2009-10 than Lisch did in 2006-07, despite the fact that the A10 was stronger in 2009-10 than in 2006-07. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I wholly disagree with Lisch as a PG. Almost all college guards are combo guards in one sense. Lisch certainly performed the duties of a PG at certain times, but he was never the point guard on the team. Polk was, Liddell was at times, Mitchell was. Polk and Mitchell were the PGs. Lisch was primarily at SG and should be treated as such. As time has gone by we've beatified Lisch. He was the heart and soul of the Billikens for 4 years, most of those teams lacked much heart except for his. All we remember is the game winning 3s and the bloody noses. Lisch was a volume 3 point shooter. That was pretty much his offense. He would drive but his conversion rate was poor. He couldn't finish, not like Kwamain. He was a decent passer, probably the best on those teams but part of the reason those teams weren't good was we didn't have good passers, specifically into the post. Lisch hit his defensive peak his sophomore year. He was still good his jr year, Sr year he fell off actually quite a bit. I never saw Lisch double teamed and I watched every game. What coach double teams Lisch with Liddell on the court with him? C'mon that is just made up. You don't double team a 3 point shooter unless the clock is down to nothing. Lisch was also a product of Brad's system, much like Liddell. Lisch wasn't as good in a more disciplined system under Majerus. Lisch had more talent around him then we think. Mitchell didn't play with another 1500 point scorer his whole career. Mitchell had more talent surrounding him but Lisch had a decent amount. I don't want this turn into a denigration of Lisch, a genuinely great player, but he was far from flawless. I'd say they are both top 20 players. I don't think they played the same position though so there isn't a real reason to compare them H2H, but I'd give a generous nod to Kwamain. I think if you factor in the better team success that Kwamain was a the leader of and all in all similar numbers, Mitchell is higher rated than Lisch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 evans will be a 1500 scorer or close to it. ellis, loe and mccall will all be over 1000. where would reed have ended up with two more years? so while lisch had liddell as another scorer, it is pretty obvious that mitchell had far more firepower around him. go find the film of lisch's richmond shot. it sure looks like more than one guy guarding him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicCityBilliken Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Didn't Kevin have great inside assistance with the benefit of having IV for his freshman and soph year and Willie his senior year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duff Man Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Lisch's shot against Richmond is legendary. RICHMOND, Va. -- Kwamain Mitchell scored eight of his career-high 23 points in the third overtime period to lift Saint Louis over Richmond 85-72 on Sunday. Kevin Lisch led the Billikins (14-9, 5-4 Atlantic 10 Conference) with 27 points, including a game-tying 3-pointer with 0.2 seconds left in the second overtime. He also had nine rebounds, three assists and three steals in 52 minutes. This game is cited by Richmond fans as the point where Mooney shifted his strategy to foul up 3 with under 10 seconds to play. The ripples are still being felt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Neither Lisch or Mitchell would make my top ten players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 ACADEMIC ALL-AMERICA Kevin Lisch 2008-09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyKen Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Roy, I get you are a Belleville guy and have a bias towards Kevin. But, if you were to ask Kevin if he would rather have his career (and perhaps slightly better numbers) or have Kwam's career with comparable stats but have led 2 teams to the tourney (not to mention having 2 tourney wins), I am sure Kevin would take Kwam's career. On the other hand, I am sure Kwam would take his career over that of Kevin's if he were asked the same question. When evaluating a legend's mark on a program, you have to look at more than just individual numbers. Accomplishing team goals of winning and making a tourney have to be factored in as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Roy, I get you are a Belleville guy and have a bias towards Kevin. But, if you were to ask Kevin if he would rather have his career (and perhaps slightly better numbers) or have Kwam's career with comparable stats but have led 2 teams to the tourney (not to mention having 2 tourney wins), I am sure Kevin would take Kwam's career. On the other hand, I am sure Kwam would take his career over that of Kevin's if he were asked the same question. When evaluating a legend's mark on a program, you have to look at more than just individual numbers. Accomplishing team goals of winning and making a tourney have to be factored in as well. that might be the stupidest point i have ever read in regards to who was the better all time billiken. how could either athlete control their surrounding cast? or forgive me, if the real question was about just being on a good team. in reality, the fact that kevin contributed to winning teams for all four seasons with his much less surrounding cast means a lot. mitchell agreed the four years he actually was on the court also had winning seasons, however, he had much better teamates. let's not forget that mitchell was a major contributor in the scenario that could have easily ruined the program and was suspended for a year as a result. in that suspension year, the billikens had one of their worst seasons in history. had he not gotten in trouble, maybe that season is erased. while many want to give mitchell a complete pass for the situation, i dont think that is right when you look at the overall picture. i commend mitchell for taking responsibility, for serving his punishment and coming back to finish his career. lisch being from belleville has no bearing on my thoughts on this comparison. i believe my analysis is right period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Sub Kevin for Kwamain this past season and I think you have a better basketball team. Not saying that Kevin is a better basketball player. That is a different argument. I would probably rate them pretty damn close to each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.