billikenfan05 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Would you take Fielder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I agree with your assessment on Ramirez's attitude and last 2 seasons. However, obtaining Ramirez in a trade would help ease the public sting of losing Pujols. Hanley is a 'name', and when he is right, he gives a team a middle of the order hitter at SS. Just 2 seasons ago he led the league in hitting, and he has 25-30 HR power. Not often that you can get a legit 30-30 hitter, and he is still under 30. I think it is a risk worth taking. why should the cardinals worry about "the sting"? they handled the albert thing very well. they made unbelieveably outrageous offers for an aging player who is likely on the downside of his career and someone was even more outrageous. still in the fold is the current world series MVP who will only get better, and berkman, and holliday, and carpenter, and wainwright, to go along with emerging youngsters like craig and motte and jay. the cardinals got far more roster talent than most teams. they were given a favor by the angels imo. save the money for now and spend it wisely. dont do anything rash to actually cripple themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I don't know what I'd even want them to do. There isn't a player on the free agent market that excites me. Rollins is declining and won't get better so unless you could get him for 3 for maybe 30 I'd pass and I think he'll get overpaid this contract. I'd make a run at Prince possibly but would want to be in the 110 -120 for 6 area and I doubt that gets it done now. I woudn't be shocked to see him get 150 or close for 7 Cuudyer or Beltran might be nice but it'd be a lot of money for OF depth and if we were looking in the OF I'd rather go CF and I'd say no to Pierre and Crisp they aren't an upgrade over Jay. One positive with Cuddyer is he can also play first so we'd have 4 to split between 1st and the corner OF spots. Lance will need some rest and Craig will probably start out on the DL so in reality with about 2000 ab's to divy up between the 3 positions getting all 4 time shouldn't be a problem. And with Adam coming back I wouldn't be all that upset if the Cards just stood pat. I know I'm in the minority but the SS position would be Tyler's. There will be deals to be made during the year if needed. We have to add another bat or at least upgrade at ss and 2nd with more combined power and on base % from the two. If we don't do this then we will not be competitive in the way we are use to being. I think Rollins would be a good addition but don't be silly about it. http://www.cbssports...ons/free-agents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I agree with your assessment on Ramirez's attitude and last 2 seasons. However, obtaining Ramirez in a trade would help ease the public sting of losing Pujols. Hanley is a 'name', and when he is right, he gives a team a middle of the order hitter at SS. Just 2 seasons ago he led the league in hitting, and he has 25-30 HR power. Not often that you can get a legit 30-30 hitter, and he is still under 30. I think it is a risk worth taking. The money isn't bad for the potential upside. However, you have to trade for him. What are you willing to give? If it was just give up a couple of middling prospects and take him, sure it's worth the risk as you're talking 15, 15, and 16 for the next 3 with the potential of him playing like a 10 mil guy or a 20 mil guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 That's just it. Of course we need to upgrade the 2 positions. But who? Rollins has a very poor obp. A little pop and speed but you said don't get silly, what is silly? What if you can't get him without being silly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 It doesn't change the fact that he is 3+ yrs older than he claims. Cardinals and MLB do not want that out there. Same reason as steroids, they hid from that issue thru the early '90's until 2004. Hurts the game, he is a star. But it will come out eventually. Hrabosky, SL Post (Monday), ESPN have all made statements that teams were concerned about his age. Even Whitey, though a rumor, has been linked to the Pujols age thing. If the Angels have the $$$ to piss away on AP (and CJ Wilson), good for them. They just got some new TV deal, right? But if the AP deal is firm, they are still idiots. I still speculate that it is not "firm" $ 25M for 10 yrs: options, conditional upon games played, etc. What do you think he will hit in 2021? 2020? 2019? 2018? 2017? 2016? Even as DH, helps keep him away from injuries... ridiculous. I say, in 3 yrs, he will be at .270-25-85 IF he can play a full yr without injuries. Dime a dozen. But 2016-2021? Ridiculous. I also said he would NOT sign with Cardinals. You missed that, smart ass. And I also posted a few days after TLR retired that Matheny was the chosen one... tabbed as TLR successor 2-3 yrs ago... but that I did not think he would get it because Matheny declined to take full time job as minor league mgr for family reasons... thought the powers would not take that well. But he got it, didn't he? Look it up, ******. McGwire crashed to .185 whey he was 38. Look at Edmonds when he hit 37-38. Most all of 'em hit a wall. Eyes, injuries, even with the juice. Think. If he was really going to be 32 in Jan, Cardinals would have practively signed him 3 yrs ago for 8 yrs or so, $ 25M a yr. Here is what you said when we went over this before: 1) I will bet you money that he does NOT get an 8 yr deal (or more) at $ 25M (or more) from anybody before the start of the 2012 season. How much do you want to bet? That was from post #71 in the following thread: http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21231&hl In post #79, you had this to say: OK, "7" yrs or more, and at least $ 200M guaranteed. Not "7+" as you stated, I will let you renege. One of us will be right, one will be wrong. I say it will not happen. Teams are not that stupid. You can believe he is 50 years old for all I care. Nobody is going to change your mind on that. It is totally ingrained in there and you have expressed that opinion ad nauseum on this board. However, the truth remains that he signed a 10 yr/$250 million deal with the Angels, one that includes a no-trade clause, which means he will never be traded unless he agrees. Thus, he can collect that money as long as he doesn't retire. As shown above, you said he wasn't going to get a contract for that length and amount. He has now gotten it. All you need to do is say you were wrong. It would also be great if you dropped the whole Pujols age thing, as it seems silly that a team would guarantee $250 million to a player that EVERYONE knows is older than he states. You can still personally believe it, but it would be nice if you stopped spewing it on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizziken Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 even though i tend to also agree albert is older than he says, i believe he will play longer than fielder due to fielder's horrible physical condition. it is bound to catch up to him. But he's a vegetarian, Roy...and he looks so svelte... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 why should the cardinals worry about "the sting"? they handled the albert thing very well. they made unbelieveably outrageous offers for an aging player who is likely on the downside of his career and someone was even more outrageous. still in the fold is the current world series MVP who will only get better, and berkman, and holliday, and carpenter, and wainwright, to go along with emerging youngsters like craig and motte and jay. the cardinals got far more roster talent than most teams. they were given a favor by the angels imo. save the money for now and spend it wisely. dont do anything rash to actually cripple themselves. I'm with you. Freese worries me as he just raised the expectations and pressure that will be placed upon him. I think he's a .290 - .310/15-20/80-100 guy, which is pretty damn good. However, I'm afraid St. Louis is going to expect more now. I'd look at Prince for 6 or less and 20 or less. So I'd max out at 6 for 120. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 why should the cardinals worry about "the sting"? they handled the albert thing very well. they made unbelieveably outrageous offers for an aging player who is likely on the downside of his career and someone was even more outrageous. still in the fold is the current world series MVP who will only get better, and berkman, and holliday, and carpenter, and wainwright, to go along with emerging youngsters like craig and motte and jay. the cardinals got far more roster talent than most teams. they were given a favor by the angels imo. save the money for now and spend it wisely. dont do anything rash to actually cripple themselves. Not sure how trading for Ramirez would be crippling themselves. He makes the same now that Pujols was making the last few years, and he is a multi-dimensional player who, when on, is one of the truly dangerous hitters in the league. Also, the Cards are now actually flush with prospects and young players. Don't think it would take much to get Ramirez as I think the Marlins are just going to be looking to move him ASAP. Personally, I would like them to make that move, but I can understand why others wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizziken Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hopefully we can sign Yadi long term, maybe re-sign Furcal short term... Oh, J.D. Drew is a free agent btw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperdeckKid Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm with you. Freese worries me as he just raised the expectations and pressure that will be placed upon him. I think he's a .290 - .310/15-20/80-100 guy, which is pretty damn good. However, I'm afraid St. Louis is going to expect more now. I'd look at Prince for 6 or less and 20 or less. So I'd max out at 6 for 120. It would be worth making that offer to him, but I am pretty sure he will get a bigger offer from somewhere else. Possibly Miami or Texas, definitely the Cubs. Apparently they made an offer to Pujols, so I can see them going after Prince hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not sure how trading for Ramirez would be crippling themselves. He makes the same now that Pujols was making the last few years, and he is a multi-dimensional player who, when on, is one of the truly dangerous hitters in the league. Also, the Cards are now actually flush with prospects and young players. Don't think it would take much to get Ramirez as I think the Marlins are just going to be looking to move him ASAP. Personally, I would like them to make that move, but I can understand why others wouldn't. At what price? I'd be shocked if we could aquire Hanley without losing Miller or possibly Martinez. I know you know the Cards farm system reasonably well, who would you give up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 It would be worth making that offer to him, but I am pretty sure he will get a bigger offer from somewhere else. Possibly Miami or Texas, definitely the Cubs. Apparently they made an offer to Pujols, so I can see them going after Prince hard. I agree and think I said that earlier. This Albert contract took Prince to 150 for 7 or more and I'd have to pass. Add Cuddyer if the price is right. Just tell Greene the SS position is his. Upside is good, downside isn't that much worse than Furcal or most other options out there. I don't get the Furcal love he had a .735 ops with 10 errors in 45 games. If Greene isn't working out and I realize that's a very real possibility options will become available during the season It's not like we just got a tax refund check and our pockets will catch fire if we don't spend the money in the next 15 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 At what price? I'd be shocked if we could aquire Hanley without losing Miller or possibly Martinez. I know you know the Cards farm system reasonably well, who would you give up? I would be willing to part with Martinez. He has a super live arm, just not sure if he will be the polished pitcher that Miller will definitely be. As far as another prospect or young major leaguer, I would probably also throw in Zack Cox. He looks like he will be a decent major league hitter, but he is a 3rd basemen and it looks like Freese will have him blocked for a few years. Also not sure if his power will develop. He might change to 2nd but we also drafted Kolt Wong this past season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not sure how trading for Ramirez would be crippling themselves. He makes the same now that Pujols was making the last few years, and he is a multi-dimensional player who, when on, is one of the truly dangerous hitters in the league. Also, the Cards are now actually flush with prospects and young players. Don't think it would take much to get Ramirez as I think the Marlins are just going to be looking to move him ASAP. Personally, I would like them to make that move, but I can understand why others wouldn't. and he was never worth what pujols was making and admittedly is on his downside now as well (if he wasnt, they wouldnt have signed an expensive free agent shortstop). what are the cardinals going to have to trade to get hanley right now? my guess is about half of the true prospects in the minors and maybe the likes of freese or craig. however if we wait until july blowout sales, he might be considerably cheaper. the truth is the cardinals played their "sting soothing" card when they signed berkman, holliday and carpenter. the cardinals likely realized long ago the likely eventual outcome of albert. and in hindsight, they should be applauded for aligning themselves accordingly so they dont have to react immediately and over pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I agree and think I said that earlier. This Albert contract took Prince to 150 for 7 or more and I'd have to pass. Add Cuddyer if the price is right. Just tell Greene the SS position is his. Upside is good, downside isn't that much worse than Furcal or most other options out there. I don't get the Furcal love he had a .735 ops with 10 errors in 45 games. If Greene isn't working out and I realize that's a very real possibility options will become available during the season It's not like we just got a tax refund check and our pockets will catch fire if we don't spend the money in the next 15 minutes. this is good thinking skip. i'd hire you for GM right now without the background check (thank god to you on that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 But he nailed it on his Mark Buehrle to the Cardinals perdiction. Yep. Buehrle's 32+, an issue, though solid. He really, REALLY wanted to come to SL. It was known that he agreed to come here for a standard market offer. The Cards offered 3 yrs, not sure how much $$$, Marlins suprised everyone with a big 4 yr deal. To me, that hurts more than losing Pujols, since losing Pujols was anticipated. The Marlins with their new stadium and The Angels with a big new TV contract were unknown factors... OUT OF NOWHERE, spending like a rapper with a hit record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm going to Pujols5 for lunch and skipping out on the bill. Anyone wanna join? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmbilliken Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm with you. Freese worries me as he just raised the expectations and pressure that will be placed upon him. I think he's a .290 - .310/15-20/80-100 guy, which is pretty damn good. However, I'm afraid St. Louis is going to expect more now.I don't think anybody that knows baseball would expect more and I'm sure the front office would be very happy with the lower end of those numbers and extatic with the higher end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Pelican Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm going to Pujols5 for lunch and skipping out on the bill. Anyone wanna join? Can't go today. Gotta jersey-burning to attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 and he was never worth what pujols was making and admittedly is on his downside now as well (if he wasnt, they wouldnt have signed an expensive free agent shortstop). what are the cardinals going to have to trade to get hanley right now? my guess is about half of the true prospects in the minors and maybe the likes of freese or craig. however if we wait until july blowout sales, he might be considerably cheaper. the truth is the cardinals played their "sting soothing" card when they signed berkman, holliday and carpenter. the cardinals likely realized long ago the likely eventual outcome of albert. and in hindsight, they should be applauded for aligning themselves accordingly so they dont have to react immediately and over pay. I would highly doubt he is on the downside just yet. Last season was bad, granted, but he did have to battle with an injury. And true, his attitude was not good, which probably also factored in. However, he isn't even 28 yet. Freese is actually older than him and Craig is less than a year younger, but we have seen that Hanley can produce at a MVP-like level in the majors. Also, since Miami put themselves in a situation by signing Reyes, they will probably be willing to move Hanley for a decent price, and not hold out long, as they don;t want to head into spring training with this hanging over their heads. Yes, you would have to give up some prospects, but at this time the Cards actually have quite a few decent prospects and wouldn't have to empty the cupboard. Also, with players like Craig, Jay and Freese already up in the majors, it gives you some flexibility with your farm system as you have younger players up already. For a player like Hanley, the iron is hot now to try to obtain him. He won't be available in July as he will already be on another team and has 3 more years left on his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I don't think anybody that knows baseball would expect more and I'm sure the front office would be very happy with the lower end of those numbers and extatic with the higher end. I agree, but many fans don't really know baseball ... yes, even in St. Louis. Can't tell you how many times in the last few weeks I've heard it's ok if Albert leaves we still have Freese. I hope I'm wrong on people's expectations and fans will be happy with .280/15/80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOSLU68 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 If those are guaranteed numbers I'd say we escaped a worse deal than we paid Danny Jackson not to pitch because he had cancer, A bad arm, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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