Missouri State

[Clock_Tower]

I agree it's a debate on who is the better team between Georgia and Missouri State, but the RPI is generally accepted as the standard for "good" wins and losses etc. so it was used for the purpose of this debate. Plus, MSU did beat SLU by 16 points, while the Georgia game was much closer (comparative scores are a tricky thing admittedly).

Only thing I'd disagree with you about is that SLU raises the profile of the MVC. What has SLU accomplished to feel this way? I feel SLU would be an asset due to ancillary factors they'd bring (market, academic quality, facilities are solid), but the quality on the court isn't out of line with what is seen in many leagues.

I don't want to get off track though. It feels as though the OP is insinuating that there isn't anything to gain by playing good teams from non-BCS leagues. Either that, or he just doesn't personally like the matchup. SLU's RPI over the past five seasons have been:

175, 81, 129, 136, 137. Decent numbers, but over this timeframe, a win doesn't really do any good, and a loss would be considered a "bad" loss every year but one.

In a time when BCS teams do not want to play decent non-BCS teams except on their terms, regionally solid teams available to do home-and-home series should be considered golden, but it isn't always perceived that way by all of a fanbase I suppose.

Good points. Enjoy the discussion.

From our standpoint, it's tough to have these discussions since our record has been, as you point out, rather mediocre. Further, for various reasons, you guys have simply had our number. The frustrating part is that we have been much better - and more equal - than the end results of our last 10 or so head to head match ups would suggest. Last year, we played only 1 game w/o our best player (Kwamain) and that was against you guys with his unusual eye injury. Two weeks later, we added Cody Ellis and our team significantly improved -- we simply were no longer the team you guys played only weeks earlier. Had we played later in the year, I truly feel last year would have been a win instead of a loss. This year, again, w/o KM and WR, we lost yet again early in the season. Again, we were a completely different team as our 4 freshmen had to, and did, grow up quickly and take charge of the team the end of the year. No doubt I/we sound like a broken record ... "the youngest team in college basketball..." and "if only WR and KM" (and FJ and CE)... But it is true. I point this out not to provide excuses but to show the direction of our program -- which is sharply upward - with a highly respected HOF coach in RM at the helm.

This was finally to be our year - not just next year. Solely the fault of our program (and not yours), but this was to be our big year following last year's 23 win season with us going 11-5 in conference. Even during our "hold on by our finger nails" first year under RM, we were 7-9 in our conference. The next year, were 8-8 in conference play with 2 to 3 freshmen starting each game. Last year, as mentioned, w/o any upperclassmen, we went 11-5 and finished in 4th place. One good year like last year, of course, is not near enough for us to point to and say that the A10 is at the level it is at b/c of SLU; however, we certainly belong in the conference. Further, with an improving program, with good wins these past years, with a high profile coach, and with a break-out season delayed to next year, yes I'd say the A10 Conference is better as a result of SLU these past 3 years. Had we had our break-out season this year, we would not even be having this conversation.

To me, the disrespect comes from your not playing the game 3 years ago when you guys got your new building and again next year. Further, with the fact that a large percentage of your players, your students and your alumni are all from St. Louis, the timing of the games is something that I believe SLU should look into. Scared to play us? I'd say it sure sounds like it. You correctly point out prior games played by prior players. As you know, however, past performance is not indicative of future results. Seeing that you guys would be weaker and that we'd be strong (we should have had WR and KM as Seniors next year), we miss another game just like when KL and TL were Seniors. In short, I stand by my comments.

[kshoe]

-kshoe, huge hypothetical here, if we could schedule almost at will do you continue with sms? my answer is i don't know, would playing them be good for bball? if so maybe play them for the good of building the game--i do think they get more out of playing us in a usually heavy recruiting area for them than we do playing them, our benefit is a team on the schedule we don;t have to buy, travel to the road game is reasonable(driveable) for fans, more times than not i would guess they help nonconf sos, but as you said the last two times the series has a break coincides when we are expected to be better is an eyebrow raiser

-but if we play sms for the good of the game do we also have to play semo? maybe 2 or 3 for 1, but i think we would have to go there at some point

-and then what about siue at some point down the line?

Obviously a huge hypothetical.

If we could schedule at will, yes I'd still play SMS and SIU. I'd try to add one more Valley team for a home and home and then one more good mid-major team from the Midwest for a home and home (Kent St. type). Thats four games.

I'd play in a good tournament against the best competition possible. Some of those tournaments give 2 buy games followed by 2 neutral court games against BCS teams. I believe thats the format of the KC tourney we are in in 2012. Thats another 4 games.

Then I'd play 4 BCS teams in home and homes. The better they are, the better, and ideally they'd be from all different types of the country. There's another 4 games.

Finally, I'd have 2 buy games. In the spirit of keeping costs down, teams like SEMO, Eastern Illinois, anybody that can bus to St. Louis would be preferable.

So my ideal 14 game non-con schedule looks likes:

2 BCS home

2 BCS away

2 BCS neutral

2 MVC/mid-major home

2 MVC/mid-major away

4 buy games

There's zero percent chance of this happening unless we go on a prolonged run similar to what Xavier and Gonzaga have done and become such a desireable property that ESPN actually wants us on t.v.

In other words, I'm not holding my breath.

[cheeseman]

The last thing we want to become is a buy game for anyone. That was the whole problem with the Duke game (and the fact that if the Duke game wasn't on the schedule we could have started a home/home with Seton Hall this season). Now we have fans of our own program ready to sell the team out like a cheap ***** to various middle of the pack BCS programs.

You know this for a fact about Seton Hall? If what you say was true then we can get that opportunity in the future.

[brianstl]

You know this for a fact about Seton Hall? If what you say was true then we can get that opportunity in the future.

I heard that Seton Hall had approached us to start a home/home at Seton Hall this year just after SLU started putting together the Duke game. The Duke date was the last date that could go to a road game becuase of the number of home dates required to make the numbers work on the arena. This led SLU to turn down the home/home with Seton Hall.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I heard that Seton Hall had approached us to start a home/home at Seton Hall this year just after SLU started putting together the Duke game. The Duke date was the last date that could go to a road game becuase of the number of home dates required to make the numbers work on the arena. This led SLU to turn down the home/home with Seton Hall.

How about SLU calls back Seton Hall and tries to start the home and home? That would get Seton Hall's Big East competition factored into SLU's RPI. Seton Hall was 13-18 this season, but that was in the Big East.

As for Mo. State, it looks like a pattern has been uncovered. Mo. State has much more to lose by not playing this game than does SLU, in terms of recruiting and its student and alumni bases.

It is tough to beat a team when the game is put into hiatus for years when it is known that SLU is going to be good and/or that Mo. State is going to be bad. That previous 1 season hiatus in the series was when Lisch and Liddell were SLU Seniors, 2008-09. Mo. State was 11-20 with an RPI of

208 that year. SLU was 17-14. And that year would have been SLU's turn to play Mo. State at home. Does this sound familiar?

[Bearvision]

Clock (on phone and post was too long to quote and reply in my limited screen capacity). I don't really disagree with what you're saying per se, but the fact of the matter is, MSU merely played the team you had out there. To take anything away from that is putting subjective metrics into an objective discussion. Missouri State played SLU last year, on their home floor, and won by double digits if I remember correctly. There's no doubt that SLU is a better team with Kwamain on the court (tremendous respect for him as a player), but the if can be played so much in a sporting event, it's hardly a factor worth considering. This is a factor I wish Missouri State fans would let go of regarding SLU's last victory over MSU (clock fiasco). I continuously hear "if" SLU had it linked properly...well, "if" Chaney or Lamberth makes their free throws it wouldn't matter.

The game was played with the players put out there. This year, MSU was w/o their best defender due to injury, but it isn't brought up much by MSU fans because they won. I have no doubt my fellow MSU brethren would be banging the injury drum as well if Jett had gone crazy and MSU lost this year, so it's not a phenomenon unique to one fanbase.

I'm not privy to inside dealings with our scheduling, so I can't comment much on the game next year, but to suggest that MSU is somehow coercing SLU to play during a time that is advantageous to them alone just comes off a little bit by tin foil hat paranoia to an outsider, ya know?

I've enjoyed the discussion, and the civility with which it's taken place. This is your home, and I understand and respect that.

[Billikan]

Clock (on phone and post was too long to quote and reply in my limited screen capacity). I don't really disagree with what you're saying per se, but the fact of the matter is, MSU merely played the team you had out there. To take anything away from that is putting subjective metrics into an objective discussion. Missouri State played SLU last year, on their home floor, and won by double digits if I remember correctly. There's no doubt that SLU is a better team with Kwamain on the court (tremendous respect for him as a player), but the if can be played so much in a sporting event, it's hardly a factor worth considering. This is a factor I wish Missouri State fans would let go of regarding SLU's last victory over MSU (clock fiasco). I continuously hear "if" SLU had it linked properly...well, "if" Chaney or Lamberth makes their free throws it wouldn't matter.

The game was played with the players put out there. This year, MSU was w/o their best defender due to injury, but it isn't brought up much by MSU fans because they won. I have no doubt my fellow MSU brethren would be banging the injury drum as well if Jett had gone crazy and MSU lost this year, so it's not a phenomenon unique to one fanbase.

I'm not privy to inside dealings with our scheduling, so I can't comment much on the game next year, but to suggest that MSU is somehow coercing SLU to play during a time that is advantageous to them alone just comes off a little bit by tin foil hat paranoia to an outsider, ya know?

I've enjoyed the discussion, and the civility with which it's taken place. This is your home, and I understand and respect that.

Do you recall that Kwaimain Mitchell was hurt and did not play in the game last year. His presence would have made a huge difference.

[Bearvision]

Do you recall that Kwaimain Mitchell was hurt and did not play in the game last year. His presence would have made a huge difference.

Yes, that's what I was referring to with having respect for Kwamain as a player, and then stating that Missouri State played the team that SLU put out there. It's not like MSU went all Tonya Harding on him (as far as we know).

The game was double digits, and while we can play the if game all day for many different variables, the fact remains that the game was played, and on that day, the scoreboard favored MSU.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'm not privy to inside dealings with our scheduling, so I can't comment much on the game next year, but to suggest that MSU is somehow coercing SLU to play during a time that is advantageous to them alone just comes off a little bit by tin foil hat paranoia to an outsider, ya know?

I don't know whether or not you are referring to me, but I am not suggesting that Mo. State "is somehow coercing SLU to play during a time that is advantageous to them alone." It takes two to tango, meaning that when the games have been played, both schools agreed to play them. But I am questioning the two lapses in playing every year. It certainly appears to be much more than merely coincidental.

Also, I respect your opinion.

[Billiken Rich]

Yes, that's what I was referring to with having respect for Kwamain as a player, and then stating that Missouri State played the team that SLU put out there. It's not like MSU went all Tonya Harding on him (as far as we know).

The game was double digits, and while we can play the if game all day for many different variables, the fact remains that the game was played, and on that day, the scoreboard favored MSU.

I'm one who belives Oswald killed Kennedy and Roosevelt didn't knowingly allow Pearl to be bombed. It's is likely there is no conspiracy to not play the Bills on years when our talent is better. In my opinion the Bears would've been destroyed by the Bills at any venue this year were it not for the loss of Willie and Kwamain.

In any case, I think it is classless to back out of a deal if that is what happened. Next time the Bills should get it in writing and maybe try for some sort of payback written into the fine print of the contract...

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'm one who belives Oswald killed Kennedy and Roosevelt didn't knowingly allow Pearl to be bombed. It's is likely there is no conspiracy to not play the Bills on years when our talent is better. In my opinion the Bears would've been destroyed by the Bills at any venue this year were it not for the loss of Willie and Kwamain.

In any case, I think it is classless to back out of a deal if that is what happened. Next time the Bills should get it in writing and maybe try for some sort of payback written into the fine print of the contract...

That is if there is a next time. Now there probably will be.

But it wouldn't hurt for SLU to expand its horizons. Even with SLU's scheduling issues, there are other teams to play.

I grew up across the Mississippi River in Illinois. I remember when the now Mo. State (then Southwest Missouri State) was a D-2 school in the MIAA playing the likes of the now Truman State (of Kirksville, then Northeast Missouri State), which is on the outside reaches of my home area. Mo. State joined D-1 in 1982-83.

What really does SLU have to gain by playing this game? It seems to be mostly a headache. It is much more important to Mo. State IMHO. When yours truly was a SLU undergraduate, SLU was in the Metro Conference playing Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis (then called Memphis State), Florida State, Virginia Tech, and Tulane, with non-conference games against the likes of Marquette and DePaul.

And irrespective of the explanations from the other side, it just raises a red (in this case maroon) flag when the series takes these selective years off when SLU is undoubtedly going to have the better team, especially when the game would be a SLU home game.

[Bearvision]

Next time the Bills should get it in writing

I would say that this is the best course of action.

[mizzoumike]

I'm one who belives Oswald killed Kennedy and Roosevelt didn't knowingly allow Pearl to be bombed. It's is likely there is no conspiracy to not play the Bills on years when our talent is better. In my opinion the Bears would've been destroyed by the Bills at any venue this year were it not for the loss of Willie and Kwamain.

In any case, I think it is classless to back out of a deal if that is what happened. Next time the Bills should get it in writing and maybe try for some sort of payback written into the fine print of the contract...

Man, what is it with the SLU excuses? We beat you this year, we won there last year and took over your student section. Still with the excuses. I'm sorry about the indescetions of your players this year, but if they were playing and we beat you it would be something else like Remekun was bummed because he failed a test or something. It just gets old but I think adequately explains why SLU is in the place they currently are.

[mizzoumike]

That is if there is a next time. Now there probably will be.

But it wouldn't hurt for SLU to expand its horizons. Even with SLU's scheduling issues, there are other teams to play.

I grew up across the Mississippi River in Illinois. I remember when the now Mo. State (then Southwest Missouri State) was a D-2 school in the MIAA playing the likes of the now Truman State (of Kirksville, then Northeast Missouri State), which is on the outside reaches of my home area. Mo. State joined D-1 in 1982-83.

What really does SLU have to gain by playing this game? It seems to be mostly a headache. It is much more important to Mo. State IMHO. When yours truly was a SLU undergraduate, SLU was in the Metro Conference playing Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis (then called Memphis State), Florida State, Virginia Tech, and Tulane, with non-conference games against the likes of Marquette and DePaul.

And irrespective of the explanations from the other side, it just raises a red (in this case maroon) flag when the series takes these selective years off when SLU is undoubtedly going to have the better team, especially when the game would be a SLU home game.

Wow you sound like a Mizzou fan. "We're too good for you etc..." If you could beat us and we ducked you then you might have something. As is, we'd consistently get better games if we played an annual home and home with Lindenwood.

[Box and Won]

Wow you sound like a Mizzou fan. "We're too good for you etc..." If you could beat us and we ducked you then you might have something. As is, we'd consistently get better games if we played an annual home and home with Lindenwood.

Still haven't figured out how to change that screen name, eh?

[For-DaLove]

Still haven't figured out how to change that screen name, eh?

That SMS education at work.

[mizzoumike]

Still haven't figured out how to change that screen name, eh?

Yeah, it won't work for me. No worries though, people should know by now who I am.

[Clock_Tower]

Yeah, it won't work for me. No worries though, people should know by now who I am.

Yes, we do. You are a tool. Flame on. Asswipe.

[Clock_Tower]

Clock (on phone and post was too long to quote and reply in my limited screen capacity). I don't really disagree with what you're saying per se, but the fact of the matter is, MSU merely played the team you had out there. To take anything away from that is putting subjective metrics into an objective discussion. Missouri State played SLU last year, on their home floor, and won by double digits if I remember correctly. There's no doubt that SLU is a better team with Kwamain on the court (tremendous respect for him as a player), but the if can be played so much in a sporting event, it's hardly a factor worth considering. This is a factor I wish Missouri State fans would let go of regarding SLU's last victory over MSU (clock fiasco). I continuously hear "if" SLU had it linked properly...well, "if" Chaney or Lamberth makes their free throws it wouldn't matter.

The game was played with the players put out there. This year, MSU was w/o their best defender due to injury, but it isn't brought up much by MSU fans because they won. I have no doubt my fellow MSU brethren would be banging the injury drum as well if Jett had gone crazy and MSU lost this year, so it's not a phenomenon unique to one fanbase.

I'm not privy to inside dealings with our scheduling, so I can't comment much on the game next year, but to suggest that MSU is somehow coercing SLU to play during a time that is advantageous to them alone just comes off a little bit by tin foil hat paranoia to an outsider, ya know?

I've enjoyed the discussion, and the civility with which it's taken place. This is your home, and I understand and respect that.

No, you're absolutely correct. MSU beat us this year, last year and most of the last 7 or 8 meetings as well. As you say, playing the "if" game is meaningless. The only thing that matters are the actual players who take the court. I only point out the same to show that bad luck our side, timing, possible coincidences, if accepted, would suggest the rivalry is closer than the recent won-loss results indicate and as and indication of the future of the programs. Also, while I would suggest both Mizzou and the Illini have had relatively equal programs and success, the long win/losing streaks in that series, when taken alone, could suggest otherwise. Personally, I don't think we can replace the games and rivalry. Both of our programs seem like they should/would benefit from the games. Recently, though, I have sensed some MSU egos (not yours) which, IMO, were expanding too quickly -- hence, the timing of my thread.

In the long-run, success of the mid-majors is the only thing which will keep the BCS schools from separating from the rest of college basketball. Whether we have sufficiently helped the A10 earn its reputation enabling it to get 3 teams in the Tourney each year is one issue. The fact is, though, that we are in the A10 and do benefit from being able to play X, Temple, UD, Richmond (and prior GW and St. Joes). With the loss of Dana Altman, not only did Creighton take a hit but so did the Valley.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Wow you sound like a Mizzou fan. "We're too good for you etc..." If you could beat us and we ducked you then you might have something. As is, we'd consistently get better games if we played an annual home and home with Lindenwood.

Nowhere did I ever say, "We're too good for you." You are embellishing.

The game means more to Mo. State because it recruits players from St. Louis and has many students and alumni from St. Louis.

SLU wants to play the game. It is Mo. State that is taking a year off. And the year off again comes when SLU is expected to have the better team.

[Bearvision]

Clock, can't disagree with anything you say. Haven't seen the ego thing, but I'm also immersed in the cultured and might take it differently (observer bias).

I love the rivalry personally, though I have expected a little more success from SLU with all the resources expended on basketball.

Only thing I get touchy with is the insinuation that Missouri State is a poor education. The University has come a long since the "fog and mirror" days of the 80's. Hopefully, the two Universities will see a continuation of the series in coming years, though putting myself in SLU shoes, I can see how your fanbase would be less than thrilled with MSU over next years game situation.

[jbizzle09]

Clock, can't disagree with anything you say. Haven't seen the ego thing, but I'm also immersed in the cultured and might take it differently (observer bias).

I love the rivalry personally, though I have expected a little more success from SLU with all the resources expended on basketball.

Only thing I get touchy with is the insinuation that Missouri State is a poor education. The University has come a long since the "fog and mirror" days of the 80's. Hopefully, the two Universities will see a continuation of the series in coming years, though putting myself in SLU shoes, I can see how your fanbase would be less than thrilled with MSU over next years game situation.

Dammit! I have no choice but to come to your defense. I spent my first year of college at the then known SMSU. I enjoyed a very good first year there before being accepted to West Point. I decided to go to that university instead of Mizzou and SLU based on the science and physics program there. It is a good school and from my understanding it has only gotten better since the time that I attended (1994-95). In recent years, I have supported SLU monetarily, but there is still a soft spot I hold for Springfield...