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In the A-10 Fordham/SLU game thread, a couple Fordham fans were saying how SLU belongs in that other conference we don't talk about. I think it's funny that Fordham fans want anybody out of the league since they've been so exceptional of late.

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In the A-10 Fordham/SLU game thread, a couple Fordham fans were saying how SLU belongs in that other conference we don't talk about. I think it's funny that Fordham fans want anybody out of the league since they've been so exceptional of late.

Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.

Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.

Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.

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Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.

Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.

Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.

I think that SLU's competition for news isn't with the cards but with Mizzou and Illinois. It's basically those 3 that get covered, and whichever is the most relevant at the moment will get more pub.

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I think that SLU's competition for news isn't with the cards but with Mizzou and Illinois. It's basically those 3 that get covered, and whichever is the most relevant at the moment will get more pub.

I think you're partially right. Everybody in this market competes with the Cardinals all the time. In the college scene, you probably have it though.

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Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.

Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.

Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.

Could not disagree more. SLU has a tremendous opportunity in St. Louis. Big metro, no NBA team. Lots of grads, only D1 in town. Big local Catholic base of fans, many who didn't go to SLU but like the school/couldn't afford it, family went there, etc. Big potential fan base.

I trot out the same argument about once a year or so. When Spoon had SLU in the Top 35 in the country and a couple NCAA berths, this city was on fire. Billikens were the #4 team in the entire US in game attendance (16,000+). Scottrade rocked. It was often as loud in there as Blues games.

There is demand here. It is proven.

We are just waiting for them to get the product right. Step 1: build a building. done. Step 2: hire a coach. done. Step 3: recruit. absolutely on its way. We were pre-season Top 25 in multiple polls this year. We've just had an unfortunate time-out while we deal with "the situation".

This was to have been the year. So...next year. Hopefully.

Way different than the Fordham situation.

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Could not disagree more. SLU has a tremendous opportunity in St. Louis. Big metro, no NBA team. Lots of grads, only D1 in town. Big local Catholic base of fans, many who didn't go to SLU but like the school/couldn't afford it, family went there, etc. Big potential fan base.

I trot out the same argument about once a year or so. When Spoon had SLU in the Top 35 in the country and a couple NCAA berths, this city was on fire. Billikens were the #4 team in the entire US in game attendance (16,000+). Scottrade rocked. It was often as loud in there as Blues games.

There is demand here. It is proven.

We are just waiting for them to get the product right. Step 1: build a building. done. Step 2: hire a coach. done. Step 3: recruit. absolutely on its way. We were pre-season Top 25 in multiple polls this year. We've just had an unfortunate time-out while we deal with "the situation".

This was to have been the year. So...next year. Hopefully.

Way different than the Fordham situation.

Agree totally. Back in Spoon's day, SLU captivated St.L in terms of basketball. A lot of it was due to Spoon's folksy good ol' boy routine and his availabiltiy to the media. Sadly, RM's not that type. I still recall going to Cinncinnati for the CUSA tourney in which they lost to UC, but still made the dance, and how many SLU fans were at the game. On the way out I was talking to a group of senior citizen type fans all wearing SLU apparel, granted some of it was Spoonball gear, and asking them what year they graduated. None were alums. Just fans. Probably more because of Uncle Charlie, but still they drove to UC to see a game. SLU can do this again with a winning program and the media jumps on the bandwagon. If next year we can put together a record thru Jan where we get ranked, I'd expect the national media to trumpet RM and his long struggle to bring SLU back to relevance. Sadly, if things go as planned next year, ie a dance invite, an A-10 championship, a top 25 ranking, that may be it for RM. Let's hope if the admin sees a full building for most games and senses people want tickets, they'll keep the momentum going and not go cheap on RM's replacement. By the way, here's a possible name for his successor. Was talking to a group of Indiana fans down here for some winter golf, which they're getting since our temps have been in the low 40s, and they're pretty upset Crean hasn't produced the desired results at IU. They say he's got next year to do something or he's gone. TC's kind of had the same problem as RM with a balky admin at IU. It seems they don't want him recruiting one and done wonder kids. But it's hard to compete in the B10 w/o them. Just a name right now but maybe someone to keep an eye on since his and RM's tenures could end at the same time.

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St. Lous is a front-running town and supports no one unequivically other than the Cardinals. A Cardinal/Cubs game in late September, meaning nothing with both teams out of the pennant chase, will still sell-out. Everything else is dependent on who is winning at that current time.

Spoon's folksy charm had nothing to do with the crowds ---- winning stoked the crowds. If this program would win, the crowds would come because the St. Louis fan loves a winner ---- even if its Saint Louis University.

If we had the team now that Spoon had in the early 90's --- the Chaifetz ticket would be a scalper's dream --- 16 or 17 thousand folks with only 10 or 12 thousand seating spots to go around.

We are not Fordham ---- thank god! A program actually in a worse situation than us!

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Back in the day, SLU used to draw 14 or 15k every game. Was that in the 80s up to the mid 90s?

Mid 90s only on the 14-16k of fans. The highpoint was 94-95 I believe and it also happened to coincide with a perfect storm of no Rams, NHL on strike, new arena and Cards not very good (hadn't made the playoffs since 87). MU was good that year which argues against Cheesey's view that we are competing against MU and Illinois for fans.

While that may be partly true, we are really competing for the St. Louis sports dollar and like nearly all colleges located in major cities with pro teams, you'd better win big if you want to be relevant. We haven't won big during the regular season since the 98 season, hence the issues with attendance...

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Mid 90s only on the 14-16k of fans. The highpoint was 94-95 I believe and it also happened to coincide with a perfect storm of no Rams, NHL on strike, new arena and Cards not very good (hadn't made the playoffs since 87). MU was good that year which argues against Cheesey's view that we are competing against MU and Illinois for fans.

While that may be partly true, we are really competing for the St. Louis sports dollar and like nearly all colleges located in major cities with pro teams, you'd better win big if you want to be relevant. We haven't won big during the regular season since the 98 season, hence the issues with attendance...

You're mischaracterizing my statement though- I was referring only to local publicity, specifically in the common media outlets (PD, sports radio, etc).

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You're mischaracterizing my statement though- I was referring only to local publicity, specifically in the common media outlets (PD, sports radio, etc).

Fair enough, although we'd both agree that local publicity and attendance are highly correlated concepts...

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i believe in hindsight the biggest factor to the billikens fabulous attendance in the 90's was no nfl team. the casual sports fan has x amount of sports dollars they want and need to spend. with no nfl team they fell into slu's lap. once the rams came to town, those dollars flew away relatively fast.

i do not believe we will ever draw that number of fans again. our 10k arena is perfect. and i believe we can indeed build to a nightly sellout with a number of fans froze out and the ability to draw a big night for "the big games". but the days of drawing 19k+ for the likes of alcorn state and austin peay like we did in 1995 are never going to be seen again.

i also hope we never agree to play those "big night" games at the eddydome or scottrade as well. while it indeed would be a great payday, it would take away our home court advantage as well.

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Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.

Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.

Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.

Fordham has St. Johns, while we have SIUE.

IMO, in the big east coast cities there is a lot more interest in pro sports than in college sports. When you have a track record like Fordham is has to be tough. I think they drew 500 fans for their first game in the Meadowlands.

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Fordham has a similar problem to SLU, but probably a lot worse. SLU is the only D-1 basketball team in a pretty large metro area, but there are so many other sports options available for people to focus their attention and spend their sports budgets (Cards, Rams, Blues, etc.) Eventhough the Cards season doesn't overlap with SLU's bball season, they still get more attention during the offseason than SLU does in season.

Forham meanwhile is in a bigger city, so it has more potential fans. However, the sports scene is even more crowded and they have a few other D-1 teams to contend with.

Essentially both Fordham and SLU are afterthoughts of the local sports scene for a vast majority of sports fans in their respective markets. Eventhough there is a large potential fanbase out there, it is near impossible to capture said fanbase because the market is already crowded (overcrowded?) with sports teams to follow.

Fordham has St. Johns, while we have SIUE.

IMO, in the big east coast cities there is a lot more interest in pro sports than in college sports. When you have a track record like Fordham is has to be tough. I think they drew 500 fans for their first game in the Meadowlands.

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St. Lous is a front-running town and supports no one unequivically other than the Cardinals. A Cardinal/Cubs game in late September, meaning nothing with both teams out of the pennant chase, will still sell-out. Everything else is dependent on who is winning at that current time.

Spoon's folksy charm had nothing to do with the crowds ---- winning stoked the crowds. If this program would win, the crowds would come because the St. Louis fan loves a winner ---- even if its Saint Louis University.

If we had the team now that Spoon had in the early 90's --- the Chaifetz ticket would be a scalper's dream --- 16 or 17 thousand folks with only 10 or 12 thousand seating spots to go around.

We are not Fordham ---- thank god! A program actually in a worse situation than us!

Uaj, disagree.

St. Louis is not a front-running sports town. Obviously, there is a correlation to wins/losses and attendance in this town. There is a limit to what the fan will endure. But this is a fabulous sports town.

To wit:

- In 25 years in STL, the Football Cardinals played a grand total of ZERO home playoff games. Never won a playoff game in their history. Way under .500 record. Yet, week in and week out played in front of good crowds. In the last few years, the attendance dwindled a bit because of Bill Bidwill's threat to move the team if he didn't get a new stadium. The inherent trust required between ownership and fans became broken. It is incredible in my mind that any town could support the notoriously worst-run franchise in professional sports. But this market did.

- Through a 6-42 record over the last 3 seasons, the Rams were the worst team (or tied for worst) in the NFL. While attendance did shrink somewhat in the Dome, somehow or other, Rams fans have largely stuck with the team. With the absolutely wretched play on the field, inept drafts and laughable front office soap operas, it is amazing even 20,000 people showed up. But this market did.

- The Blues, winners of zero Stanley Cups in their history, and floating around .500 since Mr. Checkits and Co came to town, average 19,150 -- sell outs -- at Scottrade. Blues fans are an amazingly loyal group. The only time in recent memory this wasn't the case was after Mr. Laurie sold off the best parts of the team before selling to Checkits. Again, the inherent trust between ownership and fans had been broken. Mr. Checkits has largely repaired this to his great credit.

- The Cardinals have always drawn well but of course this has been tremendously true since Whitey emerged on the scene. Nuff said.

So, yes, the Cardinals have a great winning tradition and it shows at the turnstile. But the Blues, Rams (1 Super Bowl and 1 Super Bowl loss) and Football Cardinals -- not so much.

This market has been tremendously loyal. One of the best -- if not the best -- sports towns in the US. Sporting News even named us this.

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i believe in hindsight the biggest factor to the billikens fabulous attendance in the 90's was no nfl team. the casual sports fan has x amount of sports dollars they want and need to spend. with no nfl team they fell into slu's lap. once the rams came to town, those dollars flew away relatively fast.

i do not believe we will ever draw that number of fans again. our 10k arena is perfect. and i believe we can indeed build to a nightly sellout with a number of fans froze out and the ability to draw a big night for "the big games". but the days of drawing 19k+ for the likes of alcorn state and austin peay like we did in 1995 are never going to be seen again.

i also hope we never agree to play those "big night" games at the eddydome or scottrade as well. while it indeed would be a great payday, it would take away our home court advantage as well.

Roy, I nearly always agree with you. But have to say I disagree here.

There is some truth to what you say. Less competition for the sports dollar always helps. But the reason those sports dollars dropped into the Bills laps is that they got the product right. Grawer recruited a couple guys name Clags and Highmark. Charlie took them, added a few pieces and built a winner. Trust me: there would not have been 16,000 in Scottrade watching a 5-23 team. They would have found other things to do with their money.

And the reason why we only draw 6-8000 now? It's not because the Rams came to town. It's because we haven't been back to the NCAAs in forever. We just need to get the product right again, build some tradition. Bills tickets aren't that expensive. If there's a great movie or concert or other entertainment product in town, people will find money for it. But you've got to have great product. We have not had it. This market is plenty big for reasonably-priced Div 1 basketball tickets in a no-NBA town.

In many ways, our Bills are similar to the old Football Cardinals. Lack of on-field success. Average to less than average. No winning tradition -- 1948 is a long time ago. Knuckle-headed management decisions. Lack of commitment. We don't have the tradition to pack the house year in and year out.

But I still believe we are on the cusp of a change. A strategy was created for change. A building. A coach. Recruits. One thing at a time. And if we play it right -- particularly(as someone said) in the coach that follows Rick -- we have the chance to join the Cards, Blues and Rams as a real sports "franchise".

So Roy, whether we play again at Scottrade or EddyDome, I don't know. But I'll bet you a beer (or two) that scalpers will be selling Billiken tickets above face value in the next 2 years. Bet?

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St. Lous is a front-running town and supports no one unequivically other than the Cardinals. A Cardinal/Cubs game in late September, meaning nothing with both teams out of the pennant chase, will still sell-out. Everything else is dependent on who is winning at that current time.

Spoon's folksy charm had nothing to do with the crowds ---- winning stoked the crowds. If this program would win, the crowds would come because the St. Louis fan loves a winner ---- even if its Saint Louis University.

If we had the team now that Spoon had in the early 90's --- the Chaifetz ticket would be a scalper's dream --- 16 or 17 thousand folks with only 10 or 12 thousand seating spots to go around.

We are not Fordham ---- thank god! A program actually in a worse situation than us!

The Blues and Rams have had extremely loyal fan support. Despite only a small number of winning seasons, the Rams sold out every game since moving to St. Louis in 1995 up until recently. The Blues are often times top 5 in attendance in the NHL and this year is no different despite the fact the team has disappointed for most of the past decade and hasn't won a playoff game in many years.

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Roy, I nearly always agree with you. But have to say I disagree here.

There is some truth to what you say. Less competition for the sports dollar always helps. But the reason those sports dollars dropped into the Bills laps is that they got the product right. Grawer recruited a couple guys name Clags and Highmark. Charlie took them, added a few pieces and built a winner. Trust me: there would not have been 16,000 in Scottrade watching a 5-23 team. They would have found other things to do with their money.

And the reason why we only draw 6-8000 now? It's not because the Rams came to town. It's because we haven't been back to the NCAAs in forever. We just need to get the product right again, build some tradition. Bills tickets aren't that expensive. If there's a great movie or concert or other entertainment product in town, people will find money for it. But you've got to have great product. We have not had it. This market is plenty big for reasonably-priced Div 1 basketball tickets in a no-NBA town.

In many ways, our Bills are similar to the old Football Cardinals. Lack of on-field success. Average to less than average. No winning tradition -- 1948 is a long time ago. Knuckle-headed management decisions. Lack of commitment. We don't have the tradition to pack the house year in and year out.

But I still believe we are on the cusp of a change. A strategy was created for change. A building. A coach. Recruits. One thing at a time. And if we play it right -- particularly(as someone said) in the coach that follows Rick -- we have the chance to join the Cards, Blues and Rams as a real sports "franchise".

So Roy, whether we play again at Scottrade or EddyDome, I don't know. But I'll bet you a beer (or two) that scalpers will be selling Billiken tickets above face value in the next 2 years. Bet?

I've heard we will play a game at the dome next year as a dress rehearsall for the regional.
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Adman no bet because I said above we will get back to the 10k point and a big demand for the big games. But the scalpers won't be overworked in nov dec vs tennessee state. In 95 they would have been. Now the casual fan will say oh well, we got tix for the rams tomorrow anyway

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Agree totally. Back in Spoon's day, SLU captivated St.L in terms of basketball. A lot of it was due to Spoon's folksy good ol' boy routine and his availabiltiy to the media. Sadly, RM's not that type. I still recall going to Cinncinnati for the CUSA tourney in which they lost to UC, but still made the dance, and how many SLU fans were at the game. On the way out I was talking to a group of senior citizen type fans all wearing SLU apparel, granted some of it was Spoonball gear, and asking them what year they graduated. None were alums. Just fans. Probably more because of Uncle Charlie, but still they drove to UC to see a game. SLU can do this again with a winning program and the media jumps on the bandwagon. If next year we can put together a record thru Jan where we get ranked, I'd expect the national media to trumpet RM and his long struggle to bring SLU back to relevance. Sadly, if things go as planned next year, ie a dance invite, an A-10 championship, a top 25 ranking, that may be it for RM. Let's hope if the admin sees a full building for most games and senses people want tickets, they'll keep the momentum going and not go cheap on RM's replacement. By the way, here's a possible name for his successor. Was talking to a group of Indiana fans down here for some winter golf, which they're getting since our temps have been in the low 40s, and they're pretty upset Crean hasn't produced the desired results at IU. They say he's got next year to do something or he's gone. TC's kind of had the same problem as RM with a balky admin at IU. It seems they don't want him recruiting one and done wonder kids. But it's hard to compete in the B10 w/o them. Just a name right now but maybe someone to keep an eye on since his and RM's tenures could end at the same time.

Crean? Long leash for him at IU. He is not on the hot seat. He may be with a small number of delusional fans of a massive IU fan base. He inherited a mess, 8 scholarship players etc...It's his 3rd season. Talk about unrealistic. Check back in 3 more years.

His recruits for next year are elite, and his current team has zero Seniors, and is playing without Creek.(Stress fracture)

Now, Crean may or may not be successful at IU, but so far he has steadied a volatile ship, and is progressing each season.

That won't be good enough in season 3 of delusional fans, but to objective ones, the verdict is still out and has multiple years to go.

He took a tough job, in a very difficult situation. It is a many year turn around there. Not 3.

The IU fans you spoke with are delusional.

And, if in a few years Crean departs Indiana,(not by his choice) he'll land at another BCS school or NBA assistant.

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Adman no bet because I said above we will get back to the 10k point and a big demand for the big games. But the scalpers won't be overworked in nov dec vs tennessee state. In 95 they would have been. Now the casual fan will say oh well, we got tix for the rams tomorrow anyway

Your assertion that SLU cannot duplicate the ticket scarcity they had in a building twice the size of Chaifetz is laughable.

First a history lesson: The Billiken scalpers were certainly not overworked in Nov-Dec 1995 (the dawn of the Corey Frazier era). I'll assume you meant November-December 1994. I don't remember those early season games against the likes of Bethune-Cookman selling out. After the run in of sellouts to close out the Arena, I expected it to carry over into the following season, but that was not the case. I remember the first sellout being vs Austin Peay on December 28th. Realize they averaged 17k playing in a 21k arena - if they were selling out the early season crap games, they'd have averaged 20k.

But that's beside the point, since they no longer play in 20k arena. This year, they drew 5,384 fans for Tennessee St. That's our rock bottom the plane has hit the mountain number. Last year, they drew ~6,500 for Mississippi Valley St and Kennesaw St. If they make an NCAA tournament run in 2011-12 and have the nucleus coming back, I'm pretty sure they can win over 3,500 new 'die-hard' fans from a metro area of nearly 3 million people who prefer the college basketball experience to NFL games which are more expensive in both money and time.

re: playing games at Scottrade or the Dome

If that's what it takes to get a game against Mizzou or Illinois, I think they should do it. I know we lose our home court advantage, but it would still be good for the program. I'm not sure the 1997-98 team gets an at-large bid without that win over Illinois at the dome.

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