Big East Changes

[kevinfootes]

Back when the Big 12 was formed, Texas and A&M thought too many Texas schools were being included. If Ann Richards, the Governer, wasn't a Baylor alum, they never would have been admitted. There are many who think the Big 12 is only holding together until UT gets their TV network in place to be grandfathered in whereever they go. They, A&M and Oklahoma can moreorless choose from several expanded conferences. The remaining won't be able to be so choosy and a few, like K-State and/or Iowa State could be out of luck as far as a BCS conference affiliation.

Texas still holds many cards, but I thnk it's funny that they finished tied for 10th in the Big 12 this year and had the 5th or 6th best football team in the state It sounds like the team forgot they had to show up and play games.

[TheA_Bomb]

I think this is a good move for TCU football and basketball.

MWC is better than the Big East in FB this year and probably on par most years but has bigger name schools like West Virginia and already has that Automatic Qualifier.

TCU could become a basketball power with some more money and support. The metroplex has 6.4 million people and some good talent.

TCU should dominate FB and Baseball.

I'll be happy to go check out some Big East teams when they come on down to Ft. Worth.

The good part about DFW is you can get a direct flight to all the major cities on American.

This doesn't really deliver a media market as TCU, even with all their success, still gets no love on the local TV stations. Maybe TCU v. Syracuse will garner more media attention than TCU v. BYU.

The only draw back I see is that this solidifies the BCS' power. I wish it would go away.

[TJHawk]

From what I've read the Big 12 will be putting together a package to invite LSU, Arkansas and Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very big long shot.

[STLfan]

I'd like to see the A10 add two more schools and divide into four regional divisions. Adding Butler and VCU would I think work out best.

West

Butler

Dayton

Saint Louis

Xavier

South

Charlotte

George Washington

Richmond

VCU

Central

Duquesne

La Salle

Saint Joseph's

Temple

North

Fordham

UMass

Rhode Island

St. Bonaventure

Play each team in your division home and away every year and each other team once.

Our schedule would look something like this.

Even Years

Home Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

Charlotte

Richmond

Duquesne

Saint Joseph's

Fordham

Rhode Island

Road Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

George Washington

VCU

La Salle

Temple

UMass

St. Bonaventure

Odd Years

Home Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

George Washington

VCU

La Salle

Temple

UMass

St. Bonaventure

Road Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

Charlotte

Richmond

Duquesne

Saint Joseph's

Fordham

Rhode Island

Each team would only have 6 conference road games away from their region.

16 teams also works out nicely for a conference tournament. 16 to 8 to 4 to 2 to Champion.

[Bizziken]

From what I've read the Big 12 will be putting together a package to invite LSU, Arkansas and Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very big long shot.

Interesting...I still think it behooves the Big 12 to invite Boise...a $7-8 million buyout to the MWC might be worth it...

[kevinfootes]

From what I've read the Big 12 will be putting together a package to invite LSU, Arkansas and Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very big long shot.

Now that's a wild one!

[MusicCityBilliken]

Interesting...I still think it behooves the Big 12 to invite Boise...a $7-8 million buyout to the MWC might be worth it...

Unless they throw mucho $ at them I don't see LSU or ND going anywhere. For ND the reasons are obvious and LSU the fans would go nuts. The LSU fans love to travel and I don't see them making trips up to Kansas. Maybe Arkansas but even that I doubt.

[Pistol]

I like college football but I love college basketball and I agree that it is disheartening to see football becoming the undisputed king and basically screwing some pretty good basketball conferences (CUSA being a good example) all for more money.

There is a view out there that the revenue for basketball is largely maxed out as CBS really can't increase increase the rights fees all that much more. The view with football is that revenues can continue to grow with various t.v. packages and maybe even some sort of playoff down the line. For that reason, most schools will screw basketball in favor of increased football power.

As for football losing money at most schools, that may be true but I think most universities have come to believe that a big time football program has many ancillary benefits ranging from school pride, to increased admissions applications to alumni donations that aren't necessarily to the athletics department. One can argue all day about how to attribute those things but if you are willing to lose a little money on the football program in order to improve all those other things it may be worth it.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it is disheartening. I've always preferred college basketball and admittedly never had a college football team to get behind. But I've never found it to be a very interesting product; games are about 3.5 hours, are so frequently blowouts, and are therefore often so, so boooooorrring. Look at any BCS team's schedule in a given year, and there are generally only a few interesting games. So much fuss for so little payoff.

It seems to me that pretty much everything that is going on with conference changes driven by football is about the 6 power conferences building a fortress than no other teams/conferences can penetrate, ensuring that only they are allowed to play in the few meaningful bowl games. The haves are doing everything in their already-disproportionate power to make sure there will always be have nots.

It's all making me like college football even less. What really matters to me, though, is that an inferior sport is affecting college basketball by creating unjust divides between the 6 big football conferences and the rest of the pack, when it is supposed to be ~340 teams all playing for the same prize. So when the out-of-control greed, conference shuffling, arrogance, and power struggles of college football affect college basketball, it pisses me off to no end. Stop ruining a good thing.

[BLIKNS]

So now the Big East has 17 schools,so what difference does it matter on numbers,why not have 20,so here`s an invite to Memphis,Central Florida ,and East Carolina to beef up football.Okay Memphis wouldn`t but UCF and ECU would.Why not ask Southern Miss as well, now C-USA will have to take action.

[TJHawk]

Boise St. is a glorified Community College no way could they compete in the Big 12 under the Big 12 rules. They would be last almost every year in football.

Arkansas and LSU would love being partnered with so many tier 1 schools. The SEC has 1 tier 1 school and the Big 12-2 has 6. Everyones degree's would be worth a whole heck of a lot more being in the Big 12. Money talks.

[brianstl]

From what I've read the Big 12 will be putting together a package to invite LSU, Arkansas and Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very big long shot.

From what I understand ND wouldn't be a conference member in football. They would schedule 4 Big 12 teams every year in football rotating through the conference. Would be a full member in everything else.

[brianstl]

According to the WVU AD, the football schools are looking to add 3 more football members. If this happens the Big East as we know it now is done.

[SluSignGuy]

I'd like to see the A10 add two more schools and divide into four regional divisions. Adding Butler and VCU would I think work out best.

West

Butler

Dayton

Saint Louis

Xavier

South

Charlotte

George Washington

Richmond

VCU

Central

Duquesne

La Salle

Saint Joseph's

Temple

North

Fordham

UMass

Rhode Island

St. Bonaventure

Play each team in your division home and away every year and each other team once.

Our schedule would look something like this.

Even Years

Home Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

Charlotte

Richmond

Duquesne

Saint Joseph's

Fordham

Rhode Island

Road Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

George Washington

VCU

La Salle

Temple

UMass

St. Bonaventure

Odd Years

Home Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

George Washington

VCU

La Salle

Temple

UMass

St. Bonaventure

Road Games

Butler

Dayton

Xavier

Charlotte

Richmond

Duquesne

Saint Joseph's

Fordham

Rhode Island

Each team would only have 6 conference road games away from their region.

16 teams also works out nicely for a conference tournament. 16 to 8 to 4 to 2 to Champion.

For all of the conference threads, I don't think I have seen this idea before, and it is a pretty good one.

[lefty]

Boise St. is a glorified Community College no way could they compete in the Big 12 under the Big 12 rules. They would be last almost every year in football.

Arkansas and LSU would love being partnered with so many tier 1 schools. The SEC has 1 tier 1 school and the Big 12-2 has 6. Everyones degree's would be worth a whole heck of a lot more being in the Big 12. Money talks.

ROTFLMAO!!! A ku fan expounding on the value of Boise State's relative value in football. They would not finish dead last. ku has last pretty well locked up especially with Colorado leaving. You're right about BSU's educational value though. LSU and Arkansas are not leaving the SEC for the Big 12(10). Too much money. The Big 12 won't last. The Texas schools dictate everything and probably rightfully so. They have the population and tv sets. They, however, are not a benevolent leader and teams will always be looking at other opportunities. When they get their Texas tv network up and running it will get even worse. They are arrogant pr!cks. In hindsight, it would have been better if there were divided factions and Texas had been split into four states.

[Clock_Tower]

According to the WVU AD, the football schools are looking to add 3 more football members. If this happens the Big East as we know it now is done.

Big East. Don't fool yourselves. Conference USA is the example for what happens to even good basketball schools - they get forced out.

[jjray]

According to the WVU AD, the football schools are looking to add 3 more football members. If this happens the Big East as we know it now is done.

I think we can all agree football is driving the Big East bus. The bball only schools are allowed to ride in the back if they keep their heads down and stay quiet. But if the bus gets too crowded, we can expect some bball schools to be ejected out the back end. For the sake of SLU, I hope the Big East and A10 stay intact as is for the next several years. Our team sucks right now. We haven't been to the NCAA tourney in how long? It makes my head hurt. We need to have better credentials on our resume for the day realignment comes and the scrum commences.

[kevinfootes]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it is disheartening. I've always preferred college basketball and admittedly never had a college football team to get behind. But I've never found it to be a very interesting product; games are about 3.5 hours, are so frequently blowouts, and are therefore often so, so boooooorrring. Look at any BCS team's schedule in a given year, and there are generally only a few interesting games. So much fuss for so little payoff.

I think much of this is driven by the number of games played. Most BCS football schools play 3 or 4 non conference games. Generally they play 1 pretty good game, 1 okay game, and 2 games that are essentially wins.

In basketball you play 12 or so nonconference games. You will sometimes see a team like Duke this year play a lot of good nonconference games. However, most basketball teams play only a couple of good non-confernece opponents...and many of those are on a neutral floor in a tournament. They may play one true road game against a good opponent. The rest are essentially buy wins at home. The other difference is 350 D1 hoops schools vs. 120 or so D1 football schools. IMO there are so many more hapless teams in basketball than in football. You may have a few more interesting games sprinkled in, but IMO there are many more games that are pretty much extended preseason.

[Pistol]

I think much of this is driven by the number of games played. Most BCS football schools play 3 or 4 non conference games. Generally they play 1 pretty good game, 1 okay game, and 2 games that are essentially wins.

In basketball you play 12 or so nonconference games. You will sometimes see a team like Duke this year play a lot of good nonconference games. However, most basketball teams play only a couple of good non-confernece opponents...and many of those are on a neutral floor in a tournament. They may play one true road game against a good opponent. The rest are essentially buy wins at home. The other difference is 350 D1 hoops schools vs. 120 or so D1 football schools. IMO there are so many more hapless teams in basketball than in football. You may have a few more interesting games sprinkled in, but IMO there are many more games that are pretty much extended preseason.

Percentage-wise, yeah, maybe basketball has more programs that don't have a chance of staying big-time. But each one of them has a chance to put together a few good seasons, and each team that wins the conference at least has a shot in the Tournament.

Plus, in college football, the lower-conference programs that do sustain strength for a long period get swallowed up by the big ones (Utah, TCU, et al), which even more dramatically walls off the power 6 conferences from the rest. This generally happens in basketball because of football.

Plus, in college basketball, only 68 teams that have earned spots in the NCAA Tournament get to go. College football has 35 (!) bowls this year, meaning 70 out of the 120 teams are rewarded with bowl games. That's a more forgiving percentage than the NBA or NHL playoffs. With the bowl system, college football has managed to find the least compelling possible way to end the season from a fan's standpoint. 34 utterly pointless, unwatchable snooze-fests and 1 championship game. Awesome.

When I say a 'few interesting games' a year for each college football teams, that includes conference games. Non-conference slates are lucky to have 1 interesting game a year. Look at Mizzou's schedule: http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/142/missouri-tigers

I'll give Illinois as 'interesting' because they play here every year. Then you've got #1 Oklahoma, Nebraska on the road for the North title, and from there you just hope a couple other games are close to make them interesting.

[kevinfootes]

Percentage-wise, yeah, maybe basketball has more programs that don't have a chance of staying big-time. But each one of them has a chance to put together a few good seasons, and each team that wins the conference at least has a shot in the Tournament.

Plus, in college football, the lower-conference programs that do sustain strength for a long period get swallowed up by the big ones (Utah, TCU, et al), which even more dramatically walls off the power 6 conferences from the rest. This generally happens in basketball because of football.

Plus, in college basketball, only 68 teams that have earned spots in the NCAA Tournament get to go. College football has 35 (!) bowls this year, meaning 70 out of the 120 teams are rewarded with bowl games. That's a more forgiving percentage than the NBA or NHL playoffs. With the bowl system, college football has managed to find the least compelling possible way to end the season from a fan's standpoint. 34 utterly pointless, unwatchable snooze-fests and 1 championship game. Awesome.

When I say a 'few interesting games' a year for each college football teams, that includes conference games. Non-conference slates are lucky to have 1 interesting game a year. Look at Mizzou's schedule: http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/142/missouri-tigers

I'll give Illinois as 'interesting' because they play here every year. Then you've got #1 Oklahoma, Nebraska on the road for the North title, and from there you just hope a couple other games are close to make them interesting.

I guess it depends on how you want to define "interesting". If college basketball teams had only 4 non-conference games it would look pretty similar to football IMO.

If you want to pick one random team, let's look at UConn's baskeball schedule http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/41/connecticut-huskies

They played 2 good teams in a tournament and play at Texas in January. Otherwise they play 8 really bad games at home. How is Uconn vs. Farleigh Dickinson interesting? Most of their non-conference home schedule is a glorified exhibition. I don't really see the difference.

I like both basketball and football. They both have plenty of warts, but I don't see a major difference in the scheduling other than the overall number of games that gives the opportunity for basketball teams to play a couple of fairly interesting nonconference games. You have a clear preference for basketball, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Also, in college basketball just about any team in a conference is in the postseason. Call it what you want, but the confernece tournies are nothing more than an extension of the big dance. In football Vanderbilt, Kansas, Indiana, etc. have no chance to go anywhere this year. The 1 vs. 16 games in the basketball tourney are pretty much worthless. Obviously there are some bad bowl games in football, but most are fairly interesting to me and it's a fun time of year to watch some unusual matchups IMO. What else is on during that time of year...Uconn vs. Coppin State in basketball?

One more thing...don't you think basketball conferences also swallow up teams? How many teams are in the A10 now?

[Pistol]

One more thing...don't you think basketball conferences also swallow up teams? How many teams are in the A10 now?

I will respond to the rest other than A: if you don't like college basketball, why are you here? and B: you say if college basketball teams only played as many games as college football teams, they would have the same amount of interesting games- to which I say, they play more games and therefore have more interesting games. Not to mention, the games are a snappy 2 hours instead of 3.5 commercial-filled hours. Hey, the #1 ranked team we play next is playing the team that started the season as #2 tonight- and I don't have to give up my entire night to watch it. Yes, sir.

And as for the final point, is your memory seriously that short? Do you think Charlotte and SLU are in the A10 because the A10 is some basketball school-craving monster that sucked them out of C-USA? Yeah, that's right, we were just dying to get out of a conference with Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville, DePaul, and Marquette for a conference the next notch down.

The A10 is a horrible example; looking at the many forms it's taken since inception, it's basically just taken what it can get as bigger, football-centric conferences have their way.

[kevinfootes]

I will respond to the rest other than A: if you don't like college basketball, why are you here? and B: you say if college basketball teams only played as many games as college football teams, they would have the same amount of interesting games- to which I say, they play more games and therefore have more interesting games. Not to mention, the games are a snappy 2 hours instead of 3.5 commercial-filled hours. Hey, the #1 ranked team we play next is playing the team that started the season as #2 tonight- and I don't have to give up my entire night to watch it. Yes, sir.

And as for the final point, is your memory seriously that short? Do you think Charlotte and SLU are in the A10 because the A10 is some basketball school-craving monster that sucked them out of C-USA? Yeah, that's right, we were just dying to get out of a conference with Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville, DePaul, and Marquette for a conference the next notch down.

The A10 is a horrible example; looking at the many forms it's taken since inception, it's basically just taken what it can get as bigger, football-centric conferences have their way.

I clearly posted that I like college basketball. I like basketball and football (and baseball, hockey, etc.).

If I'm following you here, you like college basketball because there are more games on the schedule and, in theory, a couple more interesting games because of that. I can buy that point. Following that thought process you would also have to conclude that there are a lot more uninteresting games as well.

My post had nothing to do with why SLU isn't in CUSA (or the Big East). The reason I mentioned the A10 is that it's OUR conference. They have more former members than Spinal Tap but, if they weren't in the business of expanding, why did the A10 go from 12-14 members in 2005? You posted that the A10 has "taken what it can get", which also means that they were interested in adding teams in new markets. Even among great football expansion, the Big East added Marquette and DePaul when they clearly didn't need to. Clearly some basketball conferences have become bigger as well.

[TJHawk]

ROTFLMAO!!! A ku fan expounding on the value of Boise State's relative value in football. They would not finish dead last. ku has last pretty well locked up especially with Colorado leaving. You're right about BSU's educational value though. LSU and Arkansas are not leaving the SEC for the Big 12(10). Too much money. The Big 12 won't last. The Texas schools dictate everything and probably rightfully so. They have the population and tv sets. They, however, are not a benevolent leader and teams will always be looking at other opportunities. When they get their Texas tv network up and running it will get even worse. They are arrogant pr!cks. In hindsight, it would have been better if there were divided factions and Texas had been split into four states.

Wow I'm glad you ROTFLMAO!!! I hope it was fun. KU in reality has one of the best football facilities in the country, we've been down for two years we'll be back. Boise St. gets players that even the SEC couldn't touch, that goes away in the BIG 12. They have no money, no national fan base, no facilities and allowing stupid kids would be cut off. They couldn't make it under BIG 12 rules.

[GoBills]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it is disheartening. I've always preferred college basketball and admittedly never had a college football team to get behind. But I've never found it to be a very interesting product; games are about 3.5 hours, are so frequently blowouts, and are therefore often so, so boooooorrring. Look at any BCS team's schedule in a given year, and there are generally only a few interesting games. So much fuss for so little payoff.

It seems to me that pretty much everything that is going on with conference changes driven by football is about the 6 power conferences building a fortress than no other teams/conferences can penetrate, ensuring that only they are allowed to play in the few meaningful bowl games. The haves are doing everything in their already-disproportionate power to make sure there will always be have nots.

It's all making me like college football even less. What really matters to me, though, is that an inferior sport is affecting college basketball by creating unjust divides between the 6 big football conferences and the rest of the pack, when it is supposed to be ~340 teams all playing for the same prize. So when the out-of-control greed, conference shuffling, arrogance, and power struggles of college football affect college basketball, it pisses me off to no end. Stop ruining a good thing.

Boy, I absolutely agree. I used to prefer college football. Enjoyed many a road trip back in the 70s and 80s throughout the Midwest to watch some good college football. The idea of the BCS made sense when I first heard it, but it has been a disaster. Teams have absolutely no incentive to play good nonconference games. Contrast that to basketball, sure there are some duds, but there are great nonconference games almost every night. With the exception of the BCS championship game, and some years it is very debatable whether they pick the two best teams, there is seemingly little reason to most of the other Bowl game match-ups. The quality of play in many of the Bowl games often seems uninspired. Contrast it to March Madness and there is no comparison. The BCS has not only lessened my passion for college football, as you astutely point out, it has negatively impacted college basketball. The conference hopping has not been good. The old Big East back in the 1980s was fantastic. Great match-ups, everybody played each other twice. Now, the likes of TCU playing hoops in the Big East? Oh well, somebody out there is making a bunch of money from all of this shifting around, but some of these decisions strike me as short-sighted money grabs.