Expansion and Superconferences

[Hawk]

Eventually, Crouthamel said he saw the Big Ten, the Atlantic Coast Conference, the Southeastern Conference and the Pacific-10 forming four 16-team superconferences and leaving the umbrella of the N.C.A.A. (Just imagine the fight between the SEC and the Pac-10 for Texas.) He said that those leagues would form their own basketball tournament to rival the N.C.A.A. tournament.

“If you look at the history of what’s been going on for the last decade, I think it’s leading in that direction,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/sports/20colleges.html

Maybe it happens, maybe not. I hope for the sake of college sports it does not.

[Quality Is Job 1]

By my count, there are 67 FBS football programs in the six current BCS conferences — 12 each in the ACC, SEC, and Big XII, 11 in the Big Ten, 10 in the Pac 10, and 10 in the Big East (including Notre Dame, which is independent in football). If the schools were to get together four 16-team super-conferences, that would total 64 teams. Which 3 teams would be excluded? And even if Notre Dame were to remain independent and still be part of the system, there would be a couple of teams not in one of the super-conferences. And how would any independent teams figure into any playoff system?

[bk18]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/sports/20colleges.html

Maybe it happens, maybe not. I hope for the sake of college sports it does not.

This is all speculation right now. It will be interesting to see what really happens. I think the author was right in identifying the big 10's pivitol role here. If they add only ND or only 1 school, nothing big will change this year. But if they go to 16, conferences are going to blow up and everyone will be moving around.

If the latter is the case, the 7 non-football schools of the Big East would be all that's left of it. That's too small for a conference. They might merge with team from the A-10, moving the conference to around 20 teams, which is too big for a conference so they might as well just come together then split in half by geographic divisions. If that were the case SLU would land in a conference with Dayton, Xavier, Richmond, Charlotte from the A-10 + DePaul, Marquette from the Big East. Then some other somewhat geographically close options would be Charlotte, Butler, and ND if they stay independent for football.

Right now what's likely is just some small changes but if the Big East schools with football programs leave for a big football conference, everything will explode. Let's hope the explosion does happen because SLU needs to find a conference with teams that aren't all super far away. And the MVC is the biggest joke of an option.

[bk18]

TWO CONSIDERATIONS FOR BIG 10 CHANGES:

1 - First thing to take into consideration is the Big 10 is filled with damn good academic schools. This is the best conference academically after Ivy League, no doubt, and they aren't going to add a school like Cincinatti. All of the current schools are ranked by USNWR in the top 71. That's why they are after ND. If you look at the USNWR rankings - you'll see some interesting coincidences.

Ohio State - 53

*Pitt - 56

*Syracuse - 58

Minnesota - 61/65 (ties)

Purdue - 61/65 (ties)

*Rutgers - 66 (tie)

*UConn - 66 (tie)

Indiana - 71

Iowa - 71

4 big east schools (denoted with *) are ranked right in the middle of 5 Big 10 schools.

2 - Think Geographic. We all know how much of a pain it is to fly a team 1,000 miles for a conference game as SLU fans. The schools I have listed above are outside the Big 10's current midwest territory. ND is right in the middle of it. Cincinatti and Louisville are right in the middle of it, but they lack the academics listed above.

Looking at these 2 points, and the fact that ND is the only school to fit both characteristics of the Big 10 well, makes me think if ND goes to the Big 10, they will cap the conference off at 12 schools and let no one else in. The Big East schools with football programs will have to find a different home - maybe in a later year. If ND doesn't go to the big 10 the conference probably will take on the 4 teams listed in part 1 and have around 15 teams and split it up into 2 divisions.

[kshoe]

By my count, there are 67 FBS football programs in the six current BCS conferences — 12 each in the ACC, SEC, and Big XII, 11 in the Big Ten, 10 in the Pac 10, and 10 in the Big East (including Notre Dame, which is independent in football). If the schools were to get together four 16-team super-conferences, that would total 64 teams. Which 3 teams would be excluded? And even if Notre Dame were to remain independent and still be part of the system, there would be a couple of teams not in one of the super-conferences. And how would any independent teams figure into any playoff system?

9 in the Big East. 66 total.

Gotta tell you though, my concern in any major reshuffling is not where the Baylors of the world land...

[slu72]

TWO CONSIDERATIONS FOR BIG 10 CHANGES:

1 - First thing to take into consideration is the Big 10 is filled with damn good academic schools. This is the best conference academically after Ivy League, no doubt, and they aren't going to add a school like Cincinatti. All of the current schools are ranked by USNWR in the top 71. That's why they are after ND. If you look at the USNWR rankings - you'll see some interesting coincidences.

Ohio State - 53

*Pitt - 56

*Syracuse - 58

Minnesota - 61/65 (ties)

Purdue - 61/65 (ties)

*Rutgers - 66 (tie)

*UConn - 66 (tie)

Indiana - 71

Iowa - 71

4 big east schools (denoted with *) are ranked right in the middle of 5 Big 10 schools.

2 - Think Geographic. We all know how much of a pain it is to fly a team 1,000 miles for a conference game as SLU fans. The schools I have listed above are outside the Big 10's current midwest territory. ND is right in the middle of it. Cincinatti and Louisville are right in the middle of it, but they lack the academics listed above.

Looking at these 2 points, and the fact that ND is the only school to fit both characteristics of the Big 10 well, makes me think if ND goes to the Big 10, they will cap the conference off at 12 schools and let no one else in. The Big East schools with football programs will have to find a different home - maybe in a later year. If ND doesn't go to the big 10 the conference probably will take on the 4 teams listed in part 1 and have around 15 teams and split it up into 2 divisions.

Well, if the scenario of superconferences comes to pass it will bring about the demise of the BEast, CUSA, and maybe the MtnWest as FB conferences. A lot of schools will be looking for new neighborhoods in which to play their games. As in everything in life, it's "follow the money" that's behind this. The biggies don't want the little guys even eating the crumbs, they simply want it all. Now how does that translate for Hoops? Isn't the real allure of the Dance/March Madness the David and Goliath theme? The Valpos and G.Masons of the world knocking off some BCS King of the Mountain? If TV was to buy into this "Superconference" hoops deal, that would take away a lot of the drama that's made March Madness such a huge phenomena/success. TV execs realize that to pull in the casual hoops fan, ie the admin asst that makes her bracket picks based on mascots or team colors, you've got to ratchet up the drama, and what 2nd rd game is more dramatic Florida vs OSU, or Harvard vs OSU? I can see the superconference idea for FB, but not for hoops. The public outcry over losing the tournament's "Hoosier" aspect would be huge.

[billiken_roy]

Well, if the scenario of superconferences comes to pass it will bring about the demise of the BEast, CUSA, and maybe the MtnWest as FB conferences. A lot of schools will be looking for new neighborhoods in which to play their games. As in everything in life, it's "follow the money" that's behind this. The biggies don't want the little guys even eating the crumbs, they simply want it all. Now how does that translate for Hoops? Isn't the real allure of the Dance/March Madness the David and Goliath theme? The Valpos and G.Masons of the world knocking off some BCS King of the Mountain? If TV was to buy into this "Superconference" hoops deal, that would take away a lot of the drama that's made March Madness such a huge phenomena/success. TV execs realize that to pull in the casual hoops fan, ie the admin asst that makes her bracket picks based on mascots or team colors, you've got to ratchet up the drama, and what 2nd rd game is more dramatic Florida vs OSU, or Harvard vs OSU? I can see the superconference idea for FB, but not for hoops. The public outcry over losing the tournament's "Hoosier" aspect would be huge.

i would welcome the 4 super conferences and the exit from the ncaa. they are what is wrong with college athletics so the sooner they leave the better.

[STLfan]

By my count, there are 67 FBS football programs in the six current BCS conferences — 12 each in the ACC, SEC, and Big XII, 11 in the Big Ten, 10 in the Pac 10, and 10 in the Big East (including Notre Dame, which is independent in football). If the schools were to get together four 16-team super-conferences, that would total 64 teams. Which 3 teams would be excluded? And even if Notre Dame were to remain independent and still be part of the system, there would be a couple of teams not in one of the super-conferences. And how would any independent teams figure into any playoff system?

ACC - 12

Big 12 - 12

Big East - 8

Big Ten - 11

Pac 10 - 10

SEC - 12

Thats 65, Notre Dame would make 66.

If they go to four super conferences I don't see there being any independents. Notre Dame would have to join one of those conferences or be left out. As you pointed out 16X4 = 64 slots so at least two teams are going to be left out. It is safe to assume the four super conferences are going to be expanded forms of the ACC, Big Ten, Pac 10, and SEC so the two teams that are going to end up on the outside looking in are going to come from either the Big 12 or Big East. If the Pac 10 adds teams from the Mountain West more than two current BCS teams might lose out.

If all expand to 16

ACC has 4 open spots

Big Ten has 5 open spots

Pac 10 has 6 open spots

SEC has 4 open spots

Just a complete guess at a possible break down. Big Ten and SEC would in my opinion get first pick and for now I will also assume that the SEC and Big Ten don't steal an ACC team.

ACC adds UConn, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia

Big Ten adds Missouri, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Rutgers, and Syracuse

Pac 10 adds Colorado, TCU, Texas Tech, Utah, Kansas, and Kansas State

SEC adds Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M

Pac 10 expansion is the hardest to figure out. BYU would make sense but I keep reading there is no way the Pac 10 will take them.

That would leave Baylor, Cincinnati, Iowa State, and South Florida on the outside.

[Cushirishbill]

The pros of a split division Big 10 would be a conference championship, which would be played alternately at Soldier Field in Chicago and Lucas Oil in Indy.

Of course the Big Blue and tOSU fans of the world want to keep the tradition of having their little rivalry game be the last Big Ten regular season game. Problem is, a lot of these Big Ten teams don't play after Thanksgiving and are often (see Illinois in the 2008 Rose Bowl against Southern Cal) rusty when they play in January for their respective bowl games.

A championship game would give teams one more week of practice leading up to the game.

Also, Michigan and tOSU would be in different divisions, so you could also see a Mich-tOSU Big 10 Championship game if one team held a tie-breaker over another division team with the same record.

For one, it would be great for Chicago and Indy to have a championship game played in their city. There are more Michigan alums in Chicago than Northwestern alums in Chicago.

[cheesycow]

Just a complete guess at a possible break down. Big Ten and SEC would in my opinion get first pick and for now I will also assume that the SEC and Big Ten don't steal an ACC team.

ACC adds UConn, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia

Big Ten adds Missouri, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Rutgers, and Syracuse

Pac 10 adds Colorado, TCU, Texas Tech, Utah, Kansas, and Kansas State

SEC adds Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M

Pac 10 expansion is the hardest to figure out. BYU would make sense but I keep reading there is no way the Pac 10 will take them.

That would leave Baylor, Cincinnati, Iowa State, and South Florida on the outside.

If the SEC adds OU, OSU, UT, and A&M, the other three "super" conferences should petition to be in a separate division, imo.

[Box and Won]

Bernie had someone from CBS Sports on his radio show today to talk about the conference realignments. Apparently, thanks to the Big Ten Network, it would be more lucrative for Notre Dame to join the conference than to stay in the Big East and keep a TV deal with NBC. Crazy.

[kshoe]

Bernie had someone from CBS Sports on his radio show today to talk about the conference realignments. Apparently, thanks to the Big Ten Network, it would be more lucrative for Notre Dame to join the conference than to stay in the Big East and keep a TV deal with NBC. Crazy.

Its amazing how valuable that t.v. network is and I really don't see why. During football season it typically had 1 non-premium game a week. During the basketball season they might have 4-5 games a week but rarely were they better games then what could be found on ESPN or any other station.

While its nice that I get the station on UVerse its not critical...and I watch a lot of sports on t.v.

Its hard for me to believe the SEC or ACC haven't followed suit and set up their own network.

[bsheldon]

Its amazing how valuable that t.v. network is and I really don't see why. During football season it typically had 1 non-premium game a week. During the basketball season they might have 4-5 games a week but rarely were they better games then what could be found on ESPN or any other station.

While its nice that I get the station on UVerse its not critical...and I watch a lot of sports on t.v.

Its hard for me to believe the SEC or ACC haven't followed suit and set up their own network.

It truly is amazing the money generator that that network is. I don't think we in St Louis truly understand the fanatical levels of many of the fans of these programs. OSU, Mich, Penn St all tuly have ENORMOUS followings. I have to agree with you though, the SEC especially, could probably have just as profitable of a system.

[Pistol]

It truly is amazing the money generator that that network is. I don't think we in St Louis truly understand the fanatical levels of many of the fans of these programs. OSU, Mich, Penn St all tuly have ENORMOUS followings. I have to agree with you though, the SEC especially, could probably have just as profitable of a system.

People also might not realize how freaking huge these schools are. Northwestern is the outlier, but many of them are among the largest undergraduate universities in the country. Based on undergrads, Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan State, and Minnesota are all in the top 10. Purdue was on that least a year ago, so it must be just outside with a few other Big Ten schools. I have also heard that Illinois has more alums than any other school in the country. So based on graduates alone, these schools have massive followings. Toss in the fact that most are the dominant programs in their states/regions and get all the fans in those states that didn't go there, and a staggering amount of the Midwest/Great Lakes pulls for a Big Ten school.

To further an earlier point, Chicago has more alums of all Big Ten schools (except Penn State) than Northwestern. Many bars in the city are 'official' bars for Big Ten schools; Durkin's is a Purdue bar, Casey Moran's is Ohio State, Kirkwood is Indiana, Sedgwick's is Illinois, Redmond's is Wisconsin, The Gin Mill is Michigan State, and so on. Most of them have at least 2 in the city. Big Ten fans are numerous and fanatical.

[Box and Won]

People also might not realize how freaking huge these schools are. Northwestern is the outlier, but many of them are among the largest undergraduate universities in the country. Based on undergrads, Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan State, and Minnesota are all in the top 10. Purdue was on that least a year ago, so it must be just outside with a few other Big Ten schools. I have also heard that Illinois has more alums than any other school in the country. So based on graduates alone, these schools have massive followings. Toss in the fact that most are the dominant programs in their states/regions and get all the fans in those states that didn't go there, and a staggering amount of the Midwest/Great Lakes pulls for a Big Ten school.

To further an earlier point, Chicago has more alums of all Big Ten schools (except Penn State) than Northwestern. Many bars in the city are 'official' bars for Big Ten schools; Durkin's is a Purdue bar, Casey Moran's is Ohio State, Kirkwood is Indiana, Sedgwick's is Illinois, Redmond's is Wisconsin, The Gin Mill is Michigan State, and so on. Most of them have at least 2 in the city. Big Ten fans are numerous and fanatical.

And I think Iowa is the go-to school for all the Chicago kids who couldn't get into U of I.

[TJHawk]

Mizzou is sixth in the Big 12 in academics behind Texax, ATM, Iowa St, Kansas, Baylor and Nebraska. I just don't see the Big 10 wanting a middle of the road University in the club. Plus the Kansas City alumni base would never allow them to leave the Big 12 anyway.

[brianstl]

Mizzou is sixth in the Big 12 in academics behind Texax, ATM, Iowa St, Kansas, Baylor and Nebraska. I just don't see the Big 10 wanting a middle of the road University in the club. Plus the Kansas City alumni base would never allow them to leave the Big 12 anyway.

You do realize the chances of the Big 12 existing in a few years slim?

[Hawk]

You do realize the chances of the Big 12 existing in a few years slim?

This is true. It's going to get picked apart.

[TJHawk]

This is true. It's going to get picked apart.

I could be wrong but I don't think so. I see the Big 12 staying the same and adding two more schools. I believe the Big 10 will add Pitt, Rutgers and SU. The Big 12 will fight with the PAC 10 for Utah and BYU. I see the Big East basketball schools and ND joining with SLU, XU and Dayton. The Big East football schools will add Memphis, Central Fl, Temple, and UMass. Then will look to see who steps up in the rest of Conf USA for two more schools.

[cheesycow]

I could be wrong but I don't think so. I see the Big 12 staying the same and adding two more schools. I believe the Big 10 will add Pitt, Rutgers and SU. The Big 12 will fight with the PAC 10 for Utah and BYU. I see the Big East basketball schools and ND joining with SLU, XU and Dayton. The Big East football schools will add Memphis, Central Fl, Temple, and UMass. Then will look to see who steps up in the rest of Conf USA for two more schools.

Count me among those that think you're wrong.

[davidlee]

TJ

I agree with cheesy, but who knows. time will tell.

If you are right feel free to come back and chastise us.

[Pistol]

And I think Iowa is the go-to school for all the Chicago kids who couldn't get into U of I.

I think you're right. Although, I don't know what it takes not to get into U of I. I knew/know some Illini grads who had shitferbrains. Good school, but like any other massive state school, there are some unimpressive kids who can sneak in and out.

And Iowa is still higher ranked than Mizzou by a decent margin. Just had to get than in.

[TJHawk]

TJ

I agree with cheesy, but who knows. time will tell.

If you are right feel free to come back and chastise us.

If I'm right it wouldn't be based on facts just a gut feeling. I would have no reason to chastise anyway.

[kshoe]

Here is the lates on potential expansion.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colle...64.story?page=1

Good news in my mind as we need to step up our game on the court if we want to be included in whatever basketball only conference shakes out from this whole thing. These next two years are very important for SLU...

[brianstl]

Here is the lates on potential expansion.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colle...64.story?page=1

Good news in my mind as we need to step up our game on the court if we want to be included in whatever basketball only conference shakes out from this whole thing. These next two years are very important for SLU...

Some version of the Catholic Conference is going to happen, especially if ND doesn't go to the Big Ten. ND will still need want themselves align with similar schools in a conference for acedemic research reasons. I read somewhere the main reason ND won't be joining the Big Ten is because of objections about some of the medical research that goes on with the CIC. This is a very big deal to some heavy hitters at ND and the Church itself.

SLU needs to position itself both on and off the court for the chance to be included. This is not only going to be big when it comes to sports for the school, but to the schools academic standing.