OT-cards need pitching help

[GOSLU68]

a race for the wild card. If this ownership can't compete with Chicago let's have some politicos fly to South America and acquaint them with the power of

the PSL and the exotics of owning a major sports franchise-INBev may have a line on some really strong arms in their worldwide travels

[slufanskip]

a race for the wild card. If this ownership can't compete with Chicago let's have some politicos fly to South America and acquaint them with the power of

the PSL and the exotics of owning a major sports franchise-INBev may have a line on some really strong arms in their worldwide travels

what do you propose?

The Post today says they have interest in Eddie Guardado but the Rangers want Jess Todd. Not even the slightest chance in hell I give up Jess Todd for Guardado. They also supposedly have an interest in Sherrill from the Orioles, but I don't think he's as good as his saves total suggests. He's got a 3.89 era and has blown 3 of his last 10 save attempts. I wouldn't give up Todd for him either, unless we could increase the significance of the trade and get Brian Roberts also. We'd have to give up lot, but Roberts is the true leadoff man who could make pitching to #'s 2, 3, 4, and 5 much more difficult. Houston Street seemed to be a good option, but his results of late are worrisome.

At this point I still wouldn't give up my prize prospects unless I was certain I was getting a difference maker who I could sign long term

[brianstl]

At this point if they want to contend the best move might be to sign Bonds and just try to outscore everybody. I am not a Barry fan, but lets cut the BS. We have had far worse people cheered in a Cardinal uniform than Barry.

[Mobile-iken]

At this point if they want to contend the best move might be to sign Bonds and just try to outscore everybody. I am not a Barry fan, but lets cut the BS. We have had far worse people cheered in a Cardinal uniform than Barry.

Good hitting will never beat good pitching...Ask the Texas Rangers.

[brianstl]

Good hitting will never beat good pitching...Ask the Texas Rangers.

I agree with that in most cases, but I don't want to decimate the farm system trying to find a closer, another starter, and another left handed arm for the bullpen. Bonds cost the the Cardinals nothing in terms of prospects or current players.

[billiken_roy]

assuming carpenter and wainwright are soon to join the roster, it is very unlikely either will be 7 inning starters anytime soon. just use both out of the bullpen the remainder of the year. i seem to remember that wainwright had a fairly positive experience as a reliever previously.

[Box and Won]

I'd love to have Fuentes from Colorado, but not at the expense of our future. Don't think I'd want to give up Rasmus for him.

[moytoy12]

Marte from the Pirates? There are rumors that the Pirates and Cards are talking about a Bay and Marte trade. But I wonder if the Cards could just get Marte?

I'm a pirates fan, so this is the most exciting time of the year for us. The dream of a .500 season is over...let's trade all of our assets!

[kshoe]

assuming carpenter and wainwright are soon to join the roster, it is very unlikely either will be 7 inning starters anytime soon. just use both out of the bullpen the remainder of the year. i seem to remember that wainwright had a fairly positive experience as a reliever previously.

I guess I can see why people would say that about Carp (although it doesn't seem all that different then a pitcher in Spring training just needing a few weeks before he can throw 100+ pitches) but I don't see why that would be the case at all for AW. His finger was hurt. He's still doing exercises for his arm and there no reason to believe he'll have any negative affects on his arm. In fact, you can argue that he'll be fresher than most starters at this time of the year and can go deeper than most.

The obvious solution once those two are back is to move either Looper or Wellemeyer to the pen. They were relievers until last year and have never thrown this many innings before. Give them a couple weeks off with some mystery DL ailment, let them rest, then bring them back in the pen fresh and ready to dominate.

[slufanskip]

Marte from the Pirates? There are rumors that the Pirates and Cards are talking about a Bay and Marte trade. But I wonder if the Cards could just get Marte?

I'm a pirates fan, so this is the most exciting time of the year for us. The dream of a .500 season is over...let's trade all of our assets!

Alright then Pirates GM Moytoy. Lets engineer a blockbuster. I want Marte, Capps, Bay. I'll give you Perez, Shoe and Garcia.

[slufanskip]

I guess I can see why people would say that about Carp (although it doesn't seem all that different then a pitcher in Spring training just needing a few weeks before he can throw 100+ pitches) but I don't see why that would be the case at all for AW. His finger was hurt. He's still doing exercises for his arm and there no reason to believe he'll have any negative affects on his arm. In fact, you can argue that he'll be fresher than most starters at this time of the year and can go deeper than most.

The obvious solution once those two are back is to move either Looper or Wellemeyer to the pen. They were relievers until last year and have never thrown this many innings before. Give them a couple weeks off with some mystery DL ailment, let them rest, then bring them back in the pen fresh and ready to dominate.

Wellmeyer was never a very successful reliever, when Carp or Adam return he'd be on the DL for a bit, it seems obvious to me he's tired. I'm also not sure the league isn't just figuring him out. I'd rest him, make sure he's healthy and see what he has.

I'm also surprised the Cards haven't began working on locking up Lohse. It'd be nice to go into next year with Carp, Adam, and Lohse at the top of the order.

[moytoy12]

Alright then Pirates GM Moytoy. Lets engineer a blockbuster. I want Marte, Capps, Bay. I'll give you Perez, Shoe and Garcia.

Shoe? Which one, kshoe or sshoe?

[Postcard]

I think McClellan needs to be given a chance to close. I have no faith in Franklin anymore. They need to change something up.

[slufanskip]

Shoe? Which one, kshoe or sshoe?

S is younger and may still have an upside, so I'd like to hold on to him. K and I have been seeing eye to eye more lately, so I hate to give him up either. I think Willie still has a couple of good years (sorry Willie) so I'd prefer to give him up. He'd also be a good veteran presence for the Pirates continual run of kids.

[slufanskip]

I think McClellan needs to be given a chance to close. I have no faith in Franklin anymore. They need to change something up.

I'd leave Kyle where he's at, though I don't know what a good answer is to what is certainly a problem.

[moytoy12]

S is younger and may still have an upside, so I'd like to hold on to him. K and I have been seeing eye to eye more lately, so I hate to give him up either. I think Willie still has a couple of good years (sorry Willie) so I'd prefer to give him up. He'd also be a good veteran presence for the Pirates continual run of kids.

Only if I can overpay Willie for his veteran presence.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'd leave Kyle where he's at, though I don't know what a good answer is to what is certainly a problem.

I would bring up Chris Perez, when he can be recalled, make him the closer and leave him alone. I realize he had some trouble earlier, but that was mostly when TLR tried to stretch 2 innings out of him. He's a natural 1 inning closer.

Ironically, TLR and Duncan (LaDunca) invented the 1 inning closer with Dennis Eckersley in Oakland.

Further, Ryan Ludwick must be in the lineup. He is not the 4th OF. We know what is going on there, and I don't like it. It was very disappointing to not have him in that lineup for such a big game last night.

[slufanskip]

I would bring up Chris Perez, when he can be recalled, make him the closer and leave him alone. I realize he had some trouble earlier, but that was mostly when TLR tried to stretch 2 innings out of him. He's a natural 1 inning closer.

Ironically, TLR and Duncan (LaDunca) invented the 1 inning closer with Dennis Eckersley in Oakland.

Further, Ryan Ludwick must be in the lineup. He is not the 4th OF. We know what is going on there, and I don't like it. It was very disappointing to not have him in that lineup for such a big game last night.

I agree with you. I'd give the job to Perez, he can't be worse than Izzy or Franklin have been, and we would get a look a realistic look at what we have for the future.

I also agree about Ludwick. Duncan's job now should be an occasional day off for one of our regular of's of Shoe, Ryan, and Aink, and back up Albert at first once every couple of weeks to keep him fresh.

Lets hope Flores can return to form and take a lottle pressure off our need for a 2nd leftie in the pen. I have serious doubts, but we need to find out.

[brianstl]

I think McClellan needs to be given a chance to close. I have no faith in Franklin anymore. They need to change something up.

This might be worth a shot for the rest of the season. I still think the long-term plan is for him to be a starter.

[Box and Won]

Further, Ryan Ludwick must be in the lineup. He is not the 4th OF. We know what is going on there, and I don't like it. It was very disappointing to not have him in that lineup for such a big game last night.

Amen. Nice basket catch by Dunc Jr. in LF last night - I almost had a heart attack.

Somehow Ryan Braun, who was just converted to a left fielder this season, does not seem to have the same problems in the field that Duncan still has after two and a half years in the league.

[Band Man]

I think McClellan needs to be given a chance to close. I have no faith in Franklin anymore. They need to change something up.

You're absolutely correct about not having much faith in Ryan Franklin. A closer cannot pitch to contact and must be able to miss the bat... unfortunately being brought up throughout his career as a long-reliever/starter he has more or a pitch to contact mentality (his stuff doesn't allow him to miss that many bats either). Too much can happen in the late innings if you rely on pitching to contact.

If you're looking for an in-house stop gap to close for the Cardinals, McClellan and Perez are not the answer. Although both have great stuff and could potentially develop into great pitchers at this level, both are still learning how to pitch. Although Perez particularly is the "closer of the future" because of his electric stuff, at this point that's all he has. Based on the time he spent with the big club he is not mature enough mentally as a pitcher to close in the heat of a pennant race. His control is inconsistent and when a pitch starts working for him he falls in love with it and overuses it. In his last few appearances he would throw some hitters 6 -8 fastballs in a row. I don't care how hard you throw the ball, you cannot get major league hitters out without a reliable second pitch. Perez has a great slider that needs some more time to develop. Someday, he will be a good closer, but for now he's not the answer.

Right now the answer as a stop-gap closer is Russ Springer. Since April 4th he's only given up 4 ER's. His WHIP is respectable (especially when compared to Ryan Franklin he seemingly gives up at least 2 hits per outing). He rarely walks batters (Only 4 Walks since May 13th). Most importantly, however, the guy knows how to pitch. Even without his best stuff he has the mental make-up and maturity that allows him to get guys out.

[Bay Area Billiken]

You're absolutely correct about not having much faith in Ryan Franklin. A closer cannot pitch to contact and must be able to miss the bat... unfortunately being brought up throughout his career as a long-reliever/starter he has more or a pitch to contact mentality (his stuff doesn't allow him to miss that many bats either). Too much can happen in the late innings if you rely on pitching to contact.

If you're looking for an in-house stop gap to close for the Cardinals, McClellan and Perez are not the answer. Although both have great stuff and could potentially develop into great pitchers at this level, both are still learning how to pitch. Although Perez particularly is the "closer of the future" because of his electric stuff, at this point that's all he has. Based on the time he spent with the big club he is not mature enough mentally as a pitcher to close in the heat of a pennant race. His control is inconsistent and when a pitch starts working for him he falls in love with it and overuses it. In his last few appearances he would throw some hitters 6 -8 fastballs in a row. I don't care how hard you throw the ball, you cannot get major league hitters out without a reliable second pitch. Perez has a great slider that needs some more time to develop. Someday, he will be a good closer, but for now he's not the answer.

Right now the answer as a stop-gap closer is Russ Springer. Since April 4th he's only given up 4 ER's. His WHIP is respectable (especially when compared to Ryan Franklin he seemingly gives up at least 2 hits per outing). He rarely walks batters (Only 4 Walks since May 13th). Most importantly, however, the guy knows how to pitch. Even without his best stuff he has the mental make-up and maturity that allows him to get guys out.

I see your point re Perez. He may not be the short term answer this season, but I didn't know where else to turn. I would support giving Springer a shot at the closer's job. Really, he can't do any worse than the other two, can he? Springer has done a fine job as a 7th inning setup type. But that now appears to be a luxury the Cards no longer can have.

I also agree that these pitch to contact types are not closers. You need someone there with the ability to strike out batters.

[brianstl]

Mather has been called up. Duncan is either going to be sent down, placed on dl, or traded.

[brianstl]

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.p...p;&start=24

[Postcard]

You're absolutely correct about not having much faith in Ryan Franklin. A closer cannot pitch to contact and must be able to miss the bat... unfortunately being brought up throughout his career as a long-reliever/starter he has more or a pitch to contact mentality (his stuff doesn't allow him to miss that many bats either). Too much can happen in the late innings if you rely on pitching to contact.

If you're looking for an in-house stop gap to close for the Cardinals, McClellan and Perez are not the answer. Although both have great stuff and could potentially develop into great pitchers at this level, both are still learning how to pitch. Although Perez particularly is the "closer of the future" because of his electric stuff, at this point that's all he has. Based on the time he spent with the big club he is not mature enough mentally as a pitcher to close in the heat of a pennant race. His control is inconsistent and when a pitch starts working for him he falls in love with it and overuses it. In his last few appearances he would throw some hitters 6 -8 fastballs in a row. I don't care how hard you throw the ball, you cannot get major league hitters out without a reliable second pitch. Perez has a great slider that needs some more time to develop. Someday, he will be a good closer, but for now he's not the answer.

Right now the answer as a stop-gap closer is Russ Springer. Since April 4th he's only given up 4 ER's. His WHIP is respectable (especially when compared to Ryan Franklin he seemingly gives up at least 2 hits per outing). He rarely walks batters (Only 4 Walks since May 13th). Most importantly, however, the guy knows how to pitch. Even without his best stuff he has the mental make-up and maturity that allows him to get guys out.

Perhaps you're right. I would be in favor of giving Springer a shot at it. FranklIzzy is not the answer. I wouln't be opposed to giving McClellan a shot either. He really has electric stuff at times.