Post-Dispatch predication for game coverage

[ACE]

Ace,

Seriously, how dumb are you? Please get someone from the shelter you live at and have them help you read because your comprehension is awful. My whole point is, and I'll say this very slooooooooly so you understand. More people in the Post coverage area care about Mizzou than SLU so that is why the paper offers more coverage/better placement of Mizzou than SLU. It's not some silly bias. It's pure economics and statistics(classes I'm sure you never took). So it has nothing to do with who is better, etc. It's sure numbers. It's just a fact of life. So who am I lecturing about coverage? I've said numerous times I'd like the Post to have 10 articles on SLU everyday but I'm not one of these people who think they need to be a PR arm of the Bills or any other team.

Don't you have little kids to threaten?

Why do you keep dodging my questions?

1. Why can't you buy a ticket and SUPPORT the Bills? Being a message board troll is not supporting them. Spending your money on tickets is supporting them?

2. Why do I have season tickets?

Mizzouphan, nobody is buying your season ticket claim. You used to go to the well with this when you used your previous, now banned moniker. Give it up. If you are such a great fan, you would not be on another message board touting Mizzou and ripping SLU fans. You would not be on here scolding SLU fans who want better coverage for OUR team.

[Postcard]

your point may be right because of sheer numbers if that was indeed the deciding factor. but the way i see it, if the post has any sense, that would never be a factor.

let's say there are 10 slu readers that read the post and 20 mi$$ouri readers but 3000 casual fans that have no hardcore allegiance but support the sports action that is local and available first and second whatever is successful, you still think that the angle for selling papers right now is mi$$ouri readers? i dont. it should be those local casual fans that will always outnumber either of the two programs fan bases. and unless the tigers are in the midst of an ultra successful season (like the football season just experienced for the first time since franklin pierce was president) the local angle should govern whom they are hyping.

btw, i know sheltiedave personally and he is first a slu fan. he just happens to have extremely good illini contacts because the majority of the illini coaching staff has peoria roots, which is where dave is from and he knows personally. thus illini stuff shows up in debates he can and should contribute. i for one appreciate that input in those debates and discussions.

if you remember in the summer he was a fabulous souce on the 3 point shooting recruit that ended up picking between slu and indiana because he had ties to that family because of the proximity to the peoria area as well. we didnt get all indignant towards him then for his input.

i'll take sheltie dave input any day over a lot of posters on this board. he understands a level of basketball that a lot of fans dont take the time to observe or understand.

Thanks for the SheltieDave tribute. Did he die or something? I'm sure he is a great guy. I don't remember attacking him but perhaps I did.

Anyways, like I said before, there are way more casual fans that follow Mizzou more closely than follow SLU which again is why the Post slants its coverage that way. From my prior example, there are way more people in the region(this is an overlooked matter that no one comments on, the Post reaches more people that just St. Louis alone), who may not have gone to Mizzou but their brother did, or their neighbor or their kid goes or they just followed them as the state school. No while they might not be hardcore fans, they're going to tune them in when they're on and read about them when they're in the paper. Again, this is just pure numbers. But there are far more people in the region with ties to MU than SLU. How many thousand kids from the area go to MU every year vs SLU? I would venture to say it's betwen 5 and 10 times more. Again, it's just numbers.

[Postcard]

Mizzouphan, nobody is buying your season ticket claim. You used to go to the well with this when you used your previous, now banned moniker. Give it up. If you are such a great fan, you would not be on another message board touting Mizzou and ripping SLU fans. You would not be on here scolding SLU fans who want better coverage for OUR team.

Well you're wrong once again. I've PM'd Roy my location and told him I would buy him a beer if ever wants to stop by. That offer still stands. You on the other hand won't answer why you don't buy tickets and support the team. You dodge this every time I ask. Why are you so afraid to answer? The reason is you're a fraud. You try to say that I'm not a fan when I indeed spend my money on Billiken season tickets while you say you're a fan but don't even go to the games. FRAUD! And once again I'm not touting anybody nor am I ripping anyone. Learn to read

[Postcard]

Roy, I agree with you. That's why I said graduates wasn't the right word. The number of readers is the key. Don't you assume that the number of readers in the area the Post covers(remember that's more than just St. Louis) prefer Mizzou stories to SLU stories. I mean, just from a pure numbers point. Like I said earlier, more "casual" fans care about Mizzou than SLU if for no other reason than they're the State school and someone they know, work with, live by, etc went there. Did you see the ratings that the Mizzou/KU or Mizzou/OU football games got here?

Do you really think that the Post bases their Mizzou/SLU decisions on something other than sure numbers?

Roy and others,

For what it's worth I emailed Dan Ceasar to see if he had an idea of how the MU/SLU basketball television ratings brokedown because I was curious to see what they both drew. Here is his response.

I don't have firm numbers at my fingertips, but in GENERAL i would estimate that mizzou draws probably about 3 times more ratings than SLU does on a typical basketball telecast. Plus Mizzou plays in a more high profile conference, with more "name'' teams on its schedule, and that influences things.

Now when SLU has a good season, they get a lot of attention... if you remember back to the spoonhour years and even some of the romar days....

I don't think that is a suprise to anyone. That just proves my point that more people in the area associate with MU than SLU. it's pure numbers thing.

[MB73]

Roy and others,

For what it's worth I emailed Dan Ceasar to see if he had an idea of how the MU/SLU basketball television ratings brokedown because I was curious to see what they both drew. Here is his response.

I don't think that is a suprise to anyone. That just proves my point that more people in the area associate with MU than SLU. it's pure numbers thing.

It doesn't prove anything.

You keep saying that it is a numbers game.

That isn't the point.

The point is really that The SL Post has favored MU even though this is ST. LOUIS.

For 30 years++++.

I would take EQUAL coverage and sign in blood.

There are and have been many people on staff from MU that have done this...

Favoring MU helps MU get more following.

Favoring MU helps MU get better recruits.

Etc.

Recently, the bad loss to GW made front page headlines larger than Dec 7, 1941 or Sept 11, 2001.

Burwell wrote 4 articles in 6 days praising Anderson after his kids got in bar fight.

Etc.

(Now write another ten posts)

[Adman]

Postcard,

You are right on this subject -- for the most part. The Post doesn't really care about who is local, who isn't, who is having better season, who isn't. I doubt Dan Caeser is right about triple the ratings. But he is more right than wrong. The Post just is all about delivering what the reader wants. At its core, what is more newsworthy.

Is it newsworthy that the Billikens are trudging through yet another lackluster season? NO.

Is it newsworthy that they knocked off a high RPI team? Not really. Why? Their history is that they'll lose the next game. Up, down, snooze, boring.

Is it newsworthy that Rickma gets more attention for his political views than his basketball team? Absolutely. It is unusual. It creates talk, interest. Sells papers. Gets tons of clicks at STLToday.com. Who cares about the Billikens when their coach is getting Biondi and Burke in a wrestling match. That's a story.

Is it newsworthy that 4 guys get kicked off Mizzou's team in some mysterious event? Hell YES.

Is it newsworthy that basically that same team knocked off a top team, a rival, on the road? Hell YES.

Would it be newsworthy next year if the Billikens started 10-0? Absolutely. This market is craving for a winning Billiken basketball team. People talk about looking back to the Spoon days. I say look back to Grawer days. Just a lousy NIT invite had this town going nuts. Being in finals of NIT two years in a row was like being in the World Series, media-wise. Crazy when you think about it. But shows the good feelings / hope they do well mentality the casual sports fan in this town has for the Bills.

Just win, baby. Then there'll be more press coverage than we know what to do with. We need to EARN our coverage.

Having said all that...there is some bias in the Sports Dept. There have been numerous questionable coverage decisions over the years. Kind of hard not to be -- with many of the writers J School grads. Like it or not, historically Mizzou basketball has made more news, more trips to post-season, etc. They deserve most of the press they get -- both good and bad.

Now to end this post with what will seem really crazy, is seemingly counter to paragraph above and will get me lambasted by most everyone on this Board: I believe the best media person in St. Louis as it relates to the Billikens is none other than the P-D's Bernie Miklasz. While he has taken a few shots over the years that may have been over the line (he's trying to sell newspapers, too), NO ONE has tried harder, pushed, cujoled, dragged-them-kicking-and-screaming, pleaded, or guilted SLU and Fr. Biondi into committing to a REAL basketball program, into committing to what Biondi said he wanted -- a top 50 program -- like our friend Bernie.

I know Bernie makes some of us mad. He "outs" our beloved U. Says things we don't like to hear. But generally, Bernie is fair and honestly wants nothing better for our city and University than a big-time, successful program.

Since the decision to build the Chaifetz Arena and hire Rickma, Bernie has been one of our biggest supporters. Great, supportive columns. Who was one of the first people to take Rick to dinner, introduce him to the City, take him on a guided tour of city historic landmarks -- make Rick feel welcomed?? Bernie Miklasz. Who was able to take Rick to dinner again after the stem cell story broke? Bernie. He likes our city. Sure, Bernie has to cultivate newsmakers. But believe it or not, he wants the best for SLU.

Next time you run into Bernie on the street, thank him for his persistent, dogged (sometimes brutal) efforts to get our program upgraded. In a couple years when we should be on a different basketball stage, thank him again.

[brianstl]

Now to end this post with what will seem really crazy, is seemingly counter to paragraph above and will get me lambasted by most everyone on this Board: I believe the best media person in St. Louis as it relates to the Billikens is none other than the P-D's Bernie Miklasz. While he has taken a few shots over the years that may have been over the line (he's trying to sell newspapers, too), NO ONE has tried harder, pushed, cujoled, dragged-them-kicking-and-screaming, pleaded, or guilted SLU and Fr. Biondi into committing to a REAL basketball program, into committing to what Biondi said he wanted -- a top 50 program -- like our friend Bernie.

I know Bernie makes some of us mad. He "outs" our beloved U. Says things we don't like to hear. But generally, Bernie is fair and honestly wants nothing better for our city and University than a big-time, successful program.

Since the decision to build the Chaifetz Arena and hire Rickma, Bernie has been one of our biggest supporters. Great, supportive columns. Who was one of the first people to take Rick to dinner, introduce him to the City, take him on a guided tour of city historic landmarks -- make Rick feel welcomed?? Bernie Miklasz. Who was able to take Rick to dinner again after the stem cell story broke? Bernie. He likes our city. Sure, Bernie has to cultivate newsmakers. But believe it or not, he wants the best for SLU.

Next time you run into Bernie on the street, thank him for his persistent, dogged (sometimes brutal) efforts to get our program upgraded. In a couple years when we should be on a different basketball stage, thank him again.

My problem with Bernie (I think many other's problem too) was the undeserved shots that Bernie would take at Billiken fans. All of Bernie's points about the way the program was run were brought up by many on this board consistently. In fact many people on this board were as hard or harder on Biondi.

None of us owe Bernie a thanks. The thanks should be saved for Chaifetz and Novelly. Bernie had nothing to do with Biondi's new found commitment to hoops. Also, remember to thank yourself when you are making out the checks for season tickets next year and the following years. Average Billiken season ticket holders will be footing a large chunk of this new commitment.

[kevinfootes]

Then isn't it just a vicious cycle? Right now if the P-D takes the belief that people as a whole care about Mizzou more (which could be debated), they therefore give Mizzou more coverage than SLU all season long, ensuring that the general public hears more about them than SLU. How is SLU ever supposed to gain ground? Should it be penalized for being a smaller school with less graduates? Logically, the P-D should cover the local D1 team more than the out-of-town programs, regardless of size. The fact is that both schools play at the same level and compete for the same championship. Admittedly, the Big 12 is a BCS conference and the A10 is not, but St. Louis is geographically on the fringe of both of those conferences.

As I said before, the debate in Cincinnati over coverage is that XU fans have historically felt overlooked in local coverage compared to UC. This has changed since Huggins left and it seems to be equal, but XU has been way better the past few years. Nonetheless, the argument takes place between the two local basketball programs, not the main state campus trying to bully out the home team for press, and UC and XU are more heavily covered than UK, OSU, and Miami combined. I don't think UK or OSU fans care, either- unlike Mizzou fans, they seem to understand that their programs shouldn't be prioritized over local programs in a market 100 miles away.

And I sure hope that's the only time I ever have to defend OSU or UK fans.

SLU can gain ground by winning games. It's pretty simple. The administration has been showing signs that they're committed...new building, high-priced coach, well-paid assistants, etc. As I've mentioned on here many times, Brad made a lot less in his last year at SLU than Spoon did in his first year 15 years earlier. SLU was more committed in the early '90s than they were last season, SLU went on the cheap for years. (some people on here, especially the trolls, posted that the new building would be enough to get a coach like RM, saying he would come here for $400K. They needed to increase that number by almost 250%, not to mention what the assistants are making.) Heck, even lowly SMU was willing to pay a coach $200K more than what SLU was paying. I'm glad they finally woke up and made the commitment to winning.

On a related note, I assumed RM would warm up to the local media better than he did. That was my mistake, as I didn't really know that much about him. That fact that he's aloof and the team has been really smoked a few times hasn't helped.

[billiken_roy]

Well you're wrong once again. I've PM'd Roy my location and told him I would buy him a beer if ever wants to stop by. That offer still stands. You on the other hand won't answer why you don't buy tickets and support the team. You dodge this every time I ask. Why are you so afraid to answer? The reason is you're a fraud. You try to say that I'm not a fan when I indeed spend my money on Billiken season tickets while you say you're a fan but don't even go to the games. FRAUD! And once again I'm not touting anybody nor am I ripping anyone. Learn to read

i cant figure out why you have billiken tickets. you have never once posted anything positive or in support of the billikens. and you have extremely passionitely defended the tigers our most hated rivals at every opportunity.

so dont tell us about fraud. you seem to have billiken fraud fan covered very well from my view point.

[cheeseman]

One reason the TV ratings are probably higher for MU is that they play on FSN and that has a bigger audience pool to draw from then Charter or Channel 11 and a bigger ad potential. If you use the argument that a media outlet has no need to worry about reporting on the local groups then they would never run stories about local organizations only those that have state or national interests because after all you want to speak to the most possible people and you are more likely to get more people interested in a state matter than a local community one - see my point is that the local media has to treat local topics equally with both state/national topics. Finally, a point that is being missed here is - I have a brother-in-law who is not anti SLU but he attended UMSL and in his mind that automatically makes him a MU fan. So, when you talk about #s of grads in the area don't leave those UMSL people out of the mix.

[MB73]

One reason the TV ratings are probably higher for MU is that they play on FSN and that has a bigger audience pool to draw from then Charter or Channel 11 and a bigger ad potential. If you use the argument that a media outlet has no need to worry about reporting on the local groups then they would never run stories about local organizations only those that have state or national interests because after all you want to speak to the most possible people and you are more likely to get more people interested in a state matter than a local community one - see my point is that the local media has to treat local topics equally with both state/national topics. Finally, a point that is being missed here is - I have a brother-in-law who is not anti SLU but he attended UMSL and in his mind that automatically makes him a MU fan. So, when you talk about #s of grads in the area don't leave those UMSL people out of the mix.

Agree.

SLU TV coverage is awful.

MU is pulled into positive opportunites as member of Big 12 on ESPN & FSN especially when then play KU, Texas, other good teams.

Postman is no statistician.

[Mobile-iken]

SMU? Are you kidding? They have an RPI close to 300 and draw less than 3,000 fans per game. They also play in a league worse than ours. And in recent years, Texas has been a MUCH better program than Mizzou. The difference between SMU and Texas is FAR greater than the difference between SLU and Mizzou, who have been pretty comparable the last 4-5 years. One of the Mizlosers on here once said that Matt Doherty would much rather have the SMU job than the SLU job... yeah right, he would kill to have the SLU job right now. I think we wound up getting somebody pretty good.

Ace I wasn't only referring to this year, and I'm not only talking about basketball. The bigger state schools seem to get better coverage than the the smaller private inner-city schools across the country, and that was the only point that I was making.

Another way of expressing my point is what if both SLU and Mizzou were in the sweet 16, who would get better (more) coverage?

[Postcard]

i cant figure out why you have billiken tickets. you have never once posted anything positive or in support of the billikens. and you have extremely passionitely defended the tigers our most hated rivals at every opportunity.

so dont tell us about fraud. you seem to have billiken fraud fan covered very well from my view point.

Why do I have Billiken tickets. Because I'm a fan. What are you stupid? Show me once where I defended anything Tiger on this board. The whole point of this discussion was to talk about why the Post covers one school different than the other. I tried being rational and explained why I think the Post chooses to do what they do. I don't want to be one of those crazy, irrational, head in the sand Billiken fans that Bernie constantly rips on. I'm a passionate supporter that backs up my love of the Bills with my wallet. And since when is Mizzou our most hated rival? They're not in my book and I doubt they are in most Bills fans books. We have to play a team for them to be our rival. Mizzou won't play us so I dont' even consider on the rival list. Who put you in charge of deciding who are rivals are? I don't need you to reaffirm my love for the Bills. In fact I took the step to try and invite you to my seats and even offered to buy you a beer so we could talk some Billikens bball. And so far you ignored that invitation. You would much rather sit on this board in the anonymous world of the internet and cast stones against me and make false accusations. I still think there are more good people on this board than the likes of you, Ace or Rich.

I enjoy the insites of Kshoe, V-Time, Skip and many other posters too numerous to mention. If you don't like my point of views than please put me on the ignore list. Remember you responded to me, not the other way around.

Go Bills.

[ACE]

On the PD board, Posty says "we" when referring to Mizzou and rips SLU fans, so I'm not buying it when he says "we" when referring to SLU. It's amusing how passionate he is about defending the PD's lack of SLU coverage.

[Postcard]

On the PD board, Posty says "we" when referring to Mizzou and rips SLU fans, so I'm not buying it when he says "we" when referring to SLU. It's amusing how passionate he is about defending the PD's lack of SLU coverage.

Buy some tickets you child threatening fraud. Get a job.

[billiken_roy]

postcard, be sure to let us know when you write a billiken or slu positive post. i've never seen one from you before. maybe our perception of such is different.

if you want to love the tigers good for you. i hate the program and the typical fan of the tigers loves to tell us how much better their program is and how they have so many more significant fans and everyone of course would rather hear about the tigers, etc. you know kind of like what you have done throughout this thread.

[provos528]

Get all the coverage they want, Any sane parent with the money would only send their kids to WashU or SLU in Missouri..

[Postcard]

postcard, be sure to let us know when you write a billiken or slu positive post. i've never seen one from you before. maybe our perception of such is different.

if you want to love the tigers good for you. i hate the program and the typical fan of the tigers loves to tell us how much better their program is and how they have so many more significant fans and everyone of course would rather hear about the tigers, etc. you know kind of like what you have done throughout this thread.

all you've done is bang on Majerus from the get go. you contantly rip on the PR department. I challenged you to find anything pro Tiger that I've included in this thread and you've failed to provide one example. Roy how can you not agree that the Post bases their coverage on business decisions and nothing else? that is the point i've been trying to get across. it people like you who give the Bills a bad name. Your the "whiny SLU" fan that Bernie typically rips on. I'm the one who set you straight on Randy Karraker. You were certain he didn't like the Bills because you thought it had something to do with Charter not televising the Bills anymore. I said that had nothing to do with it and Randy backed me up 100% so much that you got all stary eyed and went and had lunch with him. I will not apologize for being rational and not attacking the Post when they've done nothing wrong. There are plenty of Bills supporters on this board who know the increased coverage will come as the team improves. It you want to continue this please PM as I'm sure others are sick of reading about it.

[slufanskip]

What difference does it make if Postcard is a Bills fan or not in this argument. The point he's trying to make has nothing to do with his alliegence.

I think certain collumnists have favorites, which is only natural, but to think the Post has some hidden agenda against SLU is silly. The Post is in the business of selling newspapers, so they are going to print what they believe more people are interested in ... it's that simple.

As SLU wins more games, the interest in the area will increase as will the demand for more information regarding the team ... which will generate an increase in coverage.

No except us hard core SLU fan's care that SLU beat a top 25 rpi team like UMASS, when we are 12-8. If we were 18-2 there would be more interest.

Whether we like it or not setting the all time low scoring mark in the shot clock era is news, it interests people. Had we done the opposite and set the all time high scoring mark it would have generated the same exposure.

[billiken_roy]

you are right postcard. you have without a doubt proven you are a more dedicated and loyal billiken fan than i could ever be.

[slufanskip]

you are right postcard. you have without a doubt proven you are a more dedicated and loyal billiken fan than i could ever be.

If Postcard comes to my seat, buys me a nice SLU hoodie (2XL), A chicken fingers basket, 2 Absolut Citron's on the rocks, an order of nachos, and shows me his season tickets or his last letter from the Billiken Club stating his rank ..... I'll certify him as a true SLU fan.

[Postcard]

If Postcard comes to my seat, buys me a nice SLU hoodie (2XL), A chicken fingers basket, 2 Absolut Citron's on the rocks, an order of nachos, and shows me his season tickets or his last letter from the Billiken Club stating his rank ..... I'll certify him as a true SLU fan.

Do you want the nachos with jalopenos or not?

[Quality Is Job 1]

Finally, a point that is being missed here is - I have a brother-in-law who is not anti SLU but he attended UMSL and in his mind that automatically makes him a MU fan. So, when you talk about #s of grads in the area don't leave those UMSL people out of the mix.

I graduated from UMSL, but, in my mind, that gives me no connection to Mizzou. (Going to UMSL doesn't automatically make me a Mizzou fan.) I follow Mizzou because it's the state university of the state I live in. (I'm a homer.)

[kmbilliken]

Mizzou needs more space because they have more things to cover: arrests, suspensions, shootings, court appearances. All we've got is basketball and a political commentary here and there.

[kevinfootes]

Postcard,

You are right on this subject -- for the most part. The Post doesn't really care about who is local, who isn't, who is having better season, who isn't. I doubt Dan Caeser is right about triple the ratings. But he is more right than wrong. The Post just is all about delivering what the reader wants. At its core, what is more newsworthy.

Is it newsworthy that the Billikens are trudging through yet another lackluster season? NO.

Is it newsworthy that they knocked off a high RPI team? Not really. Why? Their history is that they'll lose the next game. Up, down, snooze, boring.

Is it newsworthy that Rickma gets more attention for his political views than his basketball team? Absolutely. It is unusual. It creates talk, interest. Sells papers. Gets tons of clicks at STLToday.com. Who cares about the Billikens when their coach is getting Biondi and Burke in a wrestling match. That's a story.

Is it newsworthy that 4 guys get kicked off Mizzou's team in some mysterious event? Hell YES.

Is it newsworthy that basically that same team knocked off a top team, a rival, on the road? Hell YES.

Would it be newsworthy next year if the Billikens started 10-0? Absolutely. This market is craving for a winning Billiken basketball team. People talk about looking back to the Spoon days. I say look back to Grawer days. Just a lousy NIT invite had this town going nuts. Being in finals of NIT two years in a row was like being in the World Series, media-wise. Crazy when you think about it. But shows the good feelings / hope they do well mentality the casual sports fan in this town has for the Bills.

Just win, baby. Then there'll be more press coverage than we know what to do with. We need to EARN our coverage.

Having said all that...there is some bias in the Sports Dept. There have been numerous questionable coverage decisions over the years. Kind of hard not to be -- with many of the writers J School grads. Like it or not, historically Mizzou basketball has made more news, more trips to post-season, etc. They deserve most of the press they get -- both good and bad.

Now to end this post with what will seem really crazy, is seemingly counter to paragraph above and will get me lambasted by most everyone on this Board: I believe the best media person in St. Louis as it relates to the Billikens is none other than the P-D's Bernie Miklasz. While he has taken a few shots over the years that may have been over the line (he's trying to sell newspapers, too), NO ONE has tried harder, pushed, cujoled, dragged-them-kicking-and-screaming, pleaded, or guilted SLU and Fr. Biondi into committing to a REAL basketball program, into committing to what Biondi said he wanted -- a top 50 program -- like our friend Bernie.

I know Bernie makes some of us mad. He "outs" our beloved U. Says things we don't like to hear. But generally, Bernie is fair and honestly wants nothing better for our city and University than a big-time, successful program.

Since the decision to build the Chaifetz Arena and hire Rickma, Bernie has been one of our biggest supporters. Great, supportive columns. Who was one of the first people to take Rick to dinner, introduce him to the City, take him on a guided tour of city historic landmarks -- make Rick feel welcomed?? Bernie Miklasz. Who was able to take Rick to dinner again after the stem cell story broke? Bernie. He likes our city. Sure, Bernie has to cultivate newsmakers. But believe it or not, he wants the best for SLU.

Next time you run into Bernie on the street, thank him for his persistent, dogged (sometimes brutal) efforts to get our program upgraded. In a couple years when we should be on a different basketball stage, thank him again.

I would agree this post. SLU doesn't get the same coverage, but I don't think it's because the PD has it "in" for SLU. We need to work harder and win more games. If you feel like you're getting screwed over, sitting around whining about it doesn't change much. I'm pretty confident that RM will have this team rolling in a couple of years, and we won't be worrying about this.