Talent Observation

[davidnark]

There is a lot of discussion about lineups, offensive strategy, etc. What was most apparent to me last night is that Sam Texas State or whatever the heck they are called was lot more talented at nearly every position. They were more athletic and deeper at most positions, and they could hit their open shots. Meanwhile, we opened another game by missing wide open shot after wide open shot. In our starting lineup we have an dramatically undersized point guard who can't shoot, an undersized power forward with no post game, and a center with athletic limitations. The limitations of the kids on the bench are even more pronounced. Majerus may not be working the coaching magic so many of us hoped for and expected, but he isn't exactly working with a top talent this year.

[satrap]

There is a lot of discussion about lineups, offensive strategy, etc. What was most apparent to me last night is that Sam Texas State or whatever the heck they are called was lot more talented at nearly every position. They were more athletic and deeper at most positions, and they could hit their open shots. Meanwhile, we opened another game by missing wide open shot after wide open shot. In our starting lineup we have an dramatically undersized point guard who can't shoot, an undersized power forward with no post game, and a center with athletic limitations. The limitations of the kids on the bench are even more pronounced. Majerus may not be working the coaching magic so many of us hoped for and expected, but he isn't exactly working with a top talent this year.

Maybe, but our talent x experience quotient is higher than last year, and I was fairly happy with last years team and results. I really was.

[davidnark]

Maybe, but our talent x experience quotient is higher than last year, and I was fairly happy with last years team and results. I really was.

In the front court, our talent level is way, way down, and in the backcourt the same guys are getting the bulk of the minutes, so IMO are overall talent is down from last year.

[GOSLU68]

Maybe, but our talent x experience quotient is higher than last year, and I was fairly happy with last years team and results. I really was.

Without looking it up I recall before we entered the A10 league games we were win one lose won and a very hard team to watch; just like last night if you bought 4 season tickets to take the wife and guests who would you ask to go to see a team last year or this that struggles against every opponent.

Re: coaching it was obvious to us last night that driving to the basket was there the entire second half not just the last 4 minutes of the game. Did RM

purposely hold the team down? No. Did he make them shoot 29%. No.

Also Lisch hit his first three of the game, yet he and Liddell seemed reluctant to shoot. Polk won't shoot. It seems only Husak would take a shot. The boxscore again shows us way ahead on shots taken versus the opponent. We simply miss our shots.

When Husak was in the game Sam Houston definitely was missing by altering their shots. Many shots were a foot from the rim. We missed layups.

The last two years any team that played us in an intimidating style beat us. We were fouled often.

We almost took this game back when Luke Meyer started bumping the ball handler and only then did we have the steals that have been missing from

this year and last year's statistics.

[Billikan]

There is a lot of discussion about lineups, offensive strategy, etc. What was most apparent to me last night is that Sam Texas State or whatever the heck they are called was lot more talented at nearly every position. They were more athletic and deeper at most positions, and they could hit their open shots. Meanwhile, we opened another game by missing wide open shot after wide open shot. In our starting lineup we have an dramatically undersized point guard who can't shoot, an undersized power forward with no post game, and a center with athletic limitations. The limitations of the kids on the bench are even more pronounced. Majerus may not be working the coaching magic so many of us hoped for and expected, but he isn't exactly working with a top talent this year.

Once we left the Majerus pass it 10 times and then shoot with the clock running down we actually looked like the more talented team. In my view, a lot of the problem is with the coaching. This staff does not want to adjust their system for the players they have and every first half this year has been absolutely pathetic on offense. If we adjust we will win some games. If not, we will not win 10 games. By the way, what was your prediction for games won this year. You must have thought we had enough talent then. The only thing that is changed is the coaching.

[JaleJarr]

Once we left the Majerus pass it 10 times and then shoot with the clock running down we actually looked like the more talented team. In my view, a lot of the problem is with the coaching. This staff does not want to adjust their system for the players they have and every first half this year has been absolutely pathetic on offense. If we adjust we will win some games. If not, we will not win 10 games. By the way, what was your prediction for games won this year. You must have thought we had enough talent then. The only thing that is changed is the coaching.

What he said!

[TheA_Bomb]

What happened to you Billikan? You used to be Sean Hannity:Republican Party:: Billikan: SLU AD

but that is not the case anymore, was Majerus rude to you at a luncheon?

I think that the talent level is down this year. I did predict more wins. But to be fair I always pick alot of wins for SLU I am just an optimist that way. I thought that Majerus would equal more wins than BS? The dude has the stats to back it up: never had a losing season, took Utah to the Finals etc. So I am befuddled by what is going on. The only thing I can chalk it up to is that these players don't fit his system. My basketball IQ is not high enough to know why. We have 1 legend as HC, and two former HCs as Assistants, so I don't think it is the coaching quality at practice. Unless Majerus just rules with an iron fist and he forgot how to coach setting screens/deny defense. Which I doubt that he did forget. The team chemistry is definitely off, the bad shooting is contagious and that is killing us. The defense is good but the shooting is bad. Majerus will win here I just wish it were sooner and I am dissappointed as I always have high expectations.

[Billikan]

What happened to you Billikan? You used to be Sean Hannity:Republican Party:: Billikan: SLU AD

but that is not the case anymore, was Majerus rude to you at a luncheon?

I think that the talent level is down this year. I did predict more wins. But to be fair I always pick alot of wins for SLU I am just an optimist that way. I thought that Majerus would equal more wins than BS? The dude has the stats to back it up: never had a losing season, took Utah to the Finals etc. So I am befuddled by what is going on. The only thing I can chalk it up to is that these players don't fit his system. My basketball IQ is not high enough to know why. We have 1 legend as HC, and two former HCs as Assistants, so I don't think it is the coaching quality at practice. Unless Majerus just rules with an iron fist and he forgot how to coach setting screens/deny defense. Which I doubt that he did forget. The team chemistry is definitely off, the bad shooting is contagious and that is killing us. The defense is good but the shooting is bad. Majerus will win here I just wish it were sooner and I am dissappointed as I always have high expectations.

Actually, I have had several nice meetings with the new coach and he was very friendly. One night we talked for hours. But I am really frustrated by this terrible play, particularly in the first half of every game. Yesterday, at the end when we actually played instinctively, rather than the system, we looked like the much better team so it made me more frustrated. I have no doubt that when he gets his type of players in place and they learn the system we will be a very good team. I just never thought we were starting over with a new 3 year plan. And I was one of the least optimistic predictors of how many games we would win so everyone thought we had plenty of talent before the year started. Now all the apologists are saying we have lousy players. I don't buy it for one minute.

[davidnark]

Once we left the Majerus pass it 10 times and then shoot with the clock running down we actually looked like the more talented team. In my view, a lot of the problem is with the coaching. This staff does not want to adjust their system for the players they have and every first half this year has been absolutely pathetic on offense. If we adjust we will win some games. If not, we will not win 10 games. By the way, what was your prediction for games won this year. You must have thought we had enough talent then. The only thing that is changed is the coaching.

I didn't make a prediction last year or this year, but I am not clear why a comparison to last year is relevant because this year's team doesn't have a pro prospect at center like last year's team did.

I agree that the staff isn't getting the most out of the current talent. To say otherwise would be to deny the obvious. However, to me it is also obvious that this year's team does not have great talent. Despite all of the offensive struggles, Majerus's system is creating wide open shot after wide open shot, and yet these players are missing them! Where are the great shooters? Where are the great offensive post players? Where is the point guard that creates offense for himself and his teammates? Where is the power forward that dominates the class or puts back dunks? Where is the three-point specialist with ice in his veins? Where are the bench players that change the tone of the game ten minutes into it? It simply isn't a great team with or without Majerus at the helm.

Billikan, I respect your passion and knowledge of the game and the program, but I am surprised to find your universal skepticism of the current staff to be as strong as your unfaltering loyalty to the last one.

[billiken_roy]

I agree that the staff isn't getting the most out of the current talent. To say otherwise would be to deny the obvious.

that is all we are saying david.

However, to me it is also obvious that this year's team does not have great talent. Despite all of the offensive struggles, Majerus's system is creating wide open shot after wide open shot, and yet these players are missing them!

there is a difference between shooting when you have to with the shot clock at 5 then shooting the shots in rythym when it's there. the last 4 minutes showed the real liddell and lisch

Where are the great shooters? Where are the great offensive post players? Where is the point guard that creates offense for himself and his teammates? Where is the power forward that dominates the class or puts back dunks? Where is the three-point specialist with ice in his veins? Where are the bench players that change the tone of the game ten minutes into it?

david look at your questions. not a single answer would be different than last year. while i agree ian is far better than the combination of bryce and eberhardt he isnt going to be 10 wins different. this team should be close if not the equal of last year. our coaching staff which consists of 3 head coaches, has failed at maximizing the parts of the puzzle.

what is the point of "teaching the system" if husak, meyer, polk, brown, lisch, and liddell will all be gone before it can ever even approach usefulness?

[AlumniFan]

I didn't make a prediction last year or this year, but I am not clear why a comparison to last year is relevant because this year's team doesn't have a pro prospect at center like last year's team did.

Two years ago, Ian was a pro prospect. The guy who showed up last year...well, let's just say he didn't exactly have agents calling him night and day. Technically, Ian is being paid to play basketball, so in a literal sense, he is a "professional", but I do not think that is what you were implying. For the most part of last year, I do not think Ian's production, in total, was materially better than what we have this year. The combo of Bryce and Barry are actually averaging MORE points per game, more rebounds, and more blocks than Ian did last year. Granted, they have shared the floor on occasion, but not that often.

Tommie, Luke, and Kevin both have an extra year of experience. Paul Eckerle is a fabulous addition that we did not have last year.

Worst case scenario, in my opinion, this year's team is at least equal to last year's team. I would submit that, talent-wise, they are even better. That said, the only difference between this year and last year (not counting the schedule) is...coaching.

[Cowboy]

Two years ago, Ian was a pro prospect. The guy who showed up last year...well, let's just say he didn't exactly have agents calling him night and day. Technically, Ian is being paid to play basketball, so in a literal sense, he is a "professional", but I do not think that is what you were implying. For the most part of last year, I do not think Ian's production, in total, was materially better than what we have this year. The combo of Bryce and Barry are actually averaging MORE points per game, more rebounds, and more blocks than Ian did last year. Granted, they have shared the floor on occasion, but not that often.

Tommie, Luke, and Kevin both have an extra year of experience. Paul Eckerle is a fabulous addition that we did not have last year.

Worst case scenario, in my opinion, this year's team is at least equal to last year's team. I would submit that, talent-wise, they are even better. That said, the only difference between this year and last year (not counting the schedule) is...coaching.

you are kidding, right? by throwing out the combo stats of BH/BE to compare to ian??

i guess i missed all the double teams BH/BE have been facing this year like ian did last year

my bad

[davidnark]

that is all we are saying david.

there is a difference between shooting when you have to with the shot clock at 5 then shooting the shots in rythym when it's there. the last 4 minutes showed the real liddell and lisch

The last four minutes was a nice piece of desparation coaching and a nice run by the kids. However, I doubt it would be scalable because (i) we don't have enough horses to run that style for long stretches and (ii) it worked in part yesterday because there was an element of surprise that couldn't be scouted in advance.

david look at your questions. not a single answer would be different than last year. while i agree ian is far better than the combination of bryce and eberhardt he isnt going to be 10 wins different. this team should be close if not the equal of last year. our coaching staff which consists of 3 head coaches, has failed at maximizing the parts of the puzzle.

Last year we didn't have enough talent either. That doesn't make it any better this year. We all have a great appreciation for Luke Meyer, but the reality is that we are going to need a different caliber of forward in the future if we want to make the top 25.

what is the point of "teaching the system" if husak, meyer, polk, brown, lisch, and liddell will all be gone before it can ever even approach usefulness?

I am pretty sure Lisch, Liddell, Eberhardt, and Eckerle will be back next year running the Majerus system. Everyone complains that Majerus is so candid in his criticism of the team, but I appreciate that from Day 1 he shared his belief that he didn't have the right personnel to run his sytem. He also told us early on that he was going to build his program the right way for the long-run.

[Cowboy]

Last year we didn't have enough talent either. That doesn't make it any better this year. We all have a great appreciation for Luke Meyer, but the reality is that we are going to need a different caliber of forward in the future if we want to make the top 25.

I am pretty sure Lisch, Liddell, Eberhardt, and Eckerle will be back next year running the Majerus system.

with hopefully all the recruits we signed plus a jc point guard and either one - a jc 4 or jc 5 - a real one

Everyone complains that Majerus is so candid in his criticism of the team, but I appreciate that from Day 1 he shared his belief that he didn't have the right personnel to run his sytem. He also told us early on that he was going to build his program the right way for the long-run.

some are not liking that approach as i guess they will not win the $1mil from the pick the win total contest

[Band Man]

I am pretty sure Lisch, Liddell, Eberhardt, and Eckerle will be back next year running the Majerus system.

I understand that RM is trying to properly build the foundation to make this program successful in the long-run, BUT even with KL, TL, and BE being back presumably filling three starting spots next year (I'm going to assume PE won't be in the starting lineup), if it took these guys this long to learn the system, then imagine how long it will take the freshman to learn the system while adjusting to the speed of the college game. With only 3 or 4 guys on the roster that effectively understand this system it still will not work. We may not see this thing work for two years (when this next recruiting class are sophomores). This is a shame IMO because I feel like it will hinder guys like TL and KL from being as successful as they could have been at this level. This is particularly disappointing because I honestly feel that TL has the talent to play at the next level.

[slu72]

I understand that RM is trying to properly build the foundation to make this program successful in the long-run, BUT even with KL, TL, and BE being back presumably filling three starting spots next year (I'm going to assume PE won't be in the starting lineup), if it took these guys this long to learn the system, then imagine how long it will take the freshman to learn the system while adjusting to the speed of the college game. With only 3 or 4 guys on the roster that effectively understand this system it still will not work. We may not see this thing work for two years (when this next recruiting class are sophomores). This is a shame IMO because I feel like it will hinder guys like TL and KL from being as successful as they could have been at this level. This is particularly disappointing because I honestly feel that TL has the talent to play at the next level.

This argument, ie system vs playing to the talent's strengths, is going to be an ongoing debate all year. Much like last year with UB's inability to recruit. The only difference, the anti UB'ers are backing RM, and vice versa. It is a little surprising that the anti RM crowd (and that may be too harsh a handle) is so quick to pass judgement on a man with such an impressive resume. I can't comment on the way we're playing since I've yet to see them. But for anyone who thinks this team has the talent to earn a dance invite or even an NIT bid is kidding themselves. I can say that because I've seen most of the players at least a few times. Watch a lot of college hoops on TV, you're going to see real D1 talent, and I'm not just talking the UNC's, UCLA's, but the mid majors like Davidson and Butler. We have TL, KL, and LM. Three guys can only carry you so far. Yes, they may have been more comfortable with UB at the helm and running his system, But at best I think that would have earned us only one more W than we have now. I'm for taking our lumps now and seeing RM do his thing down the road in a few years.

[billiken_roy]

I am pretty sure Lisch, Liddell, Eberhardt, and Eckerle will be back next year running the Majerus system. Everyone complains that Majerus is so candid in his criticism of the team, but I appreciate that from Day 1 he shared his belief that he didn't have the right personnel to run his sytem. He also told us early on that he was going to build his program the right way for the long-run.

if that was true, and he was truly building for the future, polk, meyer, husak and brown minutes would be cut severely and we would be force feeding all the freshmen and sophomores.

he hasnt thus what we are seeing is driving his square peg in a round hole. second, if this system is that difficult to grasp that it is a necessity to implement it now even though 75% of the players playing the lions share of the minutes are juniors and seniors that will likely never see a great season using this wonderous and difficult system, how in the world does anyone think that the incoming freshmen will get it in a year or two as well? sounds like we might be shooting for 2011. wonderful.

[billiken_roy]

It is a little surprising that the anti RM crowd (and that may be too harsh a handle) is so quick to pass judgement on a man with such an impressive resume.

that is exactly why i am quick to pass judgement. the expectation that a man with the history of majerus who got to the ncaa championship because he did adapt game to game with his personnel and won with x's and o's plus now has a staff of assistant coaches with likely more experience as successful head coaches than any other coaching staff in the A-10 has the tools to pick up where he comes in and take the team to another level, not tear it down, chase kids off and poor mouth the kids here.

i am sure he is going to be a big success, but my gosh, why not now? we are being cheated out of what i expected to be a better season than what is stacking up.

[slu72]

that is exactly why i am quick to pass judgement. the expectation that a man with the history of majerus who got to the ncaa championship because he did adapt game to game with his personnel and won with x's and o's plus now has a staff of assistant coaches with likely more experience as successful head coaches than any other coaching staff in the A-10 has the tools to pick up where he comes in and take the team to another level, not tear it down, chase kids off and poor mouth the kids here.

i am sure he is going to be a big success, but my gosh, why not now? we are being cheated out of what i expected to be a better season than what is stacking up.

Broy, you're asking the $64,000 question to the wrong guy. Being far removed from all the gossip on local media and the games themselves, I have little idea what RM is up to. I'm going on blind faith here. Trusting in a guy with a very successful coaching history and assuming he knows what's best. Am sure he's as frustrated as any of us that whatever it is he's supposed to be imparting to his team ain't getting it done. Would you agree that our record is probably only one win short of where maybe UB would be? Who knows, maybe we would have stole one, BC or KSU. I would agree the quality of the games have been very sub par. It's hard for all Bills fans to see proven players like KL and TL struggling with all that's going on. But even they can't carry the full load and make up for deficiencies in other areas, lack of a pg and an inside impact presence. I don't see this as a blame game, ie it's a hangover from UB's poor recruiting or an inflexible RM saying "my system no adjustments." I see it as a combination of a difficult period of adjustment for a coach and his team, a busy game schedule, and very intense practices. One question for you about the SHS game. Do you think TL and KL staged a mini mutiny by collaborating to play the last four minutes as they saw fit, or did RM give them the go ahead to do whatever had to be done and scrap the system for awhile?

[billiken_roy]

considering majerus happenings thus far, a mutiny of players on the floor isnt possible. there is no doubt he is in charge. and will cut at the knees anyone that crosses him. personly i think that is a good thing. the coach has to have complete control and i will give him credit, it appears to me that to a man, these kids believe in him. if not, they are doing a great job hiding disappointment and anger by their mannerisms and actions.

i am convinced that majerus decided to try to win the game and did what he had to do to make the best run at that goal. probably about 23 minutes too late.

[ACE]

that is exactly why i am quick to pass judgement. the expectation that a man with the history of majerus who got to the ncaa championship because he did adapt game to game with his personnel and won with x's and o's plus now has a staff of assistant coaches with likely more experience as successful head coaches than any other coaching staff in the A-10 has the tools to pick up where he comes in and take the team to another level, not tear it down, chase kids off and poor mouth the kids here.

i am sure he is going to be a big success, but my gosh, why not now? we are being cheated out of what i expected to be a better season than what is stacking up.

That's ridiculous. We are not being cheated out of anything. Perhaps your expectations were not realistic. The reality is that when Sodie got fired, we had little at point guard and even less at the four and 5 positions (AK and BH). Basically 3 of the 5 positions on the floor were weaknesses. Majerus added a couple of band aids in Eckerle and Eberhardt to help a little, but more help is needed. I am willing to experience a few short term growing pains, in order to get this thing headed in the right direction.

[MB73]

Hey, we do not have much talent, especially our front line w/o "V" we are nothing.

TL is overated, has not improved, cannot blame all that on RM, KL is our only real player but cannot carry us every game and even with his strong will he is frustrated. In the scope of NCAA talent/performance, can you give him more than a "B"? (on a scale of A+ down to F-minus)

The fascination with LM continues to amaze me, he is a "C minus" on the scale of NCAA talent/ability/performance, a guy who is not big enough for forward or quick enough for guard, dime a dozen, even though I admire what he gets done. We always get "tweeners".

Polk is not satisfactoy, no way you can win 20 games with him starting, sorry, I like his hustle but we cannot go on with him.

RM is trying with Husack, but he too is a one or two tool player. BE is a good guy to have, but in this environment, is not going to thrive. Needed him last year.

I think RM is running this into the ground, does not care if several players wind up leaving, he is brutal, it will be "his" people or nothing, he is even not too worried about what KL or TL think...

[slufanskip]

That's ridiculous. We are not being cheated out of anything. Perhaps your expectations were not realistic. The reality is that when Sodie got fired, we had little at point guard and even less at the four and 5 positions (AK and BH). Basically 3 of the 5 positions on the floor were weaknesses. Majerus added a couple of band aids in Eckerle and Eberhardt to help a little, but more help is needed. I am willing to experience a few short term growing pains, in order to get this thing headed in the right direction.

Ace ... you have it right.

I don't like his bad mouthing the players, but it seems to me that too many people don't get it.

It looked to me like his offense was clicking Sat night. We had open look after open look and missed, we had at least 4-5 drives to the basket in the 1st half and missed. Early in the 2nd half we got the ball into Bryce and made a little run, then we quit and SHS stretched out the lead. Now is there anyone here who believes RM told them to quit getting the ball inside? (Maybe he said "Hey guys that getting the ball inside to Bryce is working, we seem pretty good at that so lets work on doing something we aren't so good at for a while") I doubt it. Bryce was open and we couldn't get the ball inside. I saw numerous times where Bryce was posted up and we should have gotten him the ball but didn't. That's on the player, not the coach, unless you actually believe RM told them to quit. In the 2nd half we shot at least 5 jumpshots where we had clear paths to the basket. Again on the player unless you believe RM had instructed them not to take open layups and instead tentatively shoot a jumper despite the fact you haven't hit all freakin night.

The offense started picking up before the 4 minute mark, I don't know the exact time but it was 4-5 minutes earlier when TL finally drove to the basket and made a relatively simple layup. He just put the ball on the floor and beat his man. He could have done it all night, but he didn't he was tentative. After he hit the first drive he continued to drive and the offense picked up.

The open looks and drives to the basket were there ... we just didn't make the shots.

This isn't the first time this group of guys has played tentatively ... in fact it's not even close to the 1st time. They had the same problem last year. There were plenty of games where we had open looks we just don't shoot and when we do we miss. UB said last year over and over that there was a green light to shoot an open shot, Tommie said RM told him he had the green light this year as long as it was a good shot ... Different coaches, same results .... hmmmm

Does anyone really think that the guys are being coached to not take open shots and to pass up open drives to the basket? If so ... I don't know what to say.

[billi-can]

I understand that RM is trying to properly build the foundation to make this program successful in the long-run, BUT even with KL, TL, and BE being back presumably filling three starting spots next year (I'm going to assume PE won't be in the starting lineup), if it took these guys this long to learn the system, then imagine how long it will take the freshman to learn the system while adjusting to the speed of the college game. With only 3 or 4 guys on the roster that effectively understand this system it still will not work. We may not see this thing work for two years (when this next recruiting class are sophomores). This is a shame IMO because I feel like it will hinder guys like TL and KL from being as successful as they could have been at this level. This is particularly disappointing because I honestly feel that TL has the talent to play at the next level.

Kevin and Tommie are going to suffer, with this system. both may have a chance at the next level

[billiken_roy]

skip i am telling you that is all the billiken guards tried to do in the first half. EVERY trip down the floor was pass around until you can get it to bryce or the shot clock is about gone. while bryce got some good box score numbers out of it, he also couldnt catch about 5 passes that he failed to meet, and missed about 3-4 two footers on the ones that he did. that is the number one reason we were down as much as 13-15 points in the first half imo.

in the second half, if you noticed, bryce was catching passes 15 feet away from the basket and shot at least 3 or 4 15-20 footers. he was tired imo. and didnt want to battle in the paint anymore.

now i am not saying we shouldnt go to bryce, but i am saying we dont need to be all consumed to be forcing it to bryce in the middle and that degree of focus is indeed what is wrong with this team. it is pass it around the perimeter until they can force it in the middle or until we get down to about 5 on the clock then it is someone's turn to chuck up a miracle drive or shot.

the last four minutes liddell and lisch took their first opportunities to score and did. had we been playing that all along, i think bryce gets more open looks when the defense comes after them. the offense needs to go through lisch and liddell not bryce.

do you honestly think that liddell and lisch arent taking first opps on their own? i dont. i think the more likely scenario is that it is understood the system goes through the paint first. i have watched lisch and liddell for far too many years to believe for a second that all at once they no longer look for a scoring opportunity.