thetorch Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Rhode Island beat Utah 85-84 in OT Cincy beat Temple 80-71 USC beat George Washington 74-65 West Virginia pounded Duquesne 85-54 VCU beat Richmond 68-54 Wright St beat the Bonnies 59-57 Dayton beat Grambling 58-49 Fordham beat Penn 77-60 on the road Davidson over Charlotte 79-66 Creighton beats Xavier 73-67 Louisville over St Joes 74-64 The Richmond and St Bonnies losses are inexcuseable. If they wanna play like that then join the leagues that Wright St and VCu play in. The Charlotte loss comes very close to this level too. Rhode Island and Fordham had nice wins. Kudos to them. Us and Dayton took care of business that we should. The A-10s premier team loses to the Valley's 3rd or 4th best team ths says it all. 3 games against middling Big east teams and we can't pull off one game. No doubt the A-10 will lose its lone top 25 team this week, and we don't deserve one. The A-10 has 4 maybe 5 good teams. The rest are extremely weak. If we want an at large bid SLU will have to run the table, and with road games against Dayton adn Xavier that wil be hard to come by. This is a one bid league right now and at this juncture the A-10 has nothing over the other east coast and midwestern mid major conferences like the MAC, horizon, mid con or the colonial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 The only sure route for the Bills is to win the A-10 post-season tournament, like the Billiken baseball, volleyball and women's soccer team did! The remaining non-conference games with Pacific, Missouri State, UNC, Ole Miss and Houston will be a hand-full. Finding three wins in that group won't be easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SluSignGuy Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 GW blew a 20 point lead in the second half to then lose by 9. KARL HOBBS CANNOT COACH. HE CAN RECRUIT, and THAT IS IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 the "other" conference goes 7-0 in non-conference games, including a win over the #14 team in the nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 At the time we committed to join the A-10, the A-10 put 3 or 4 teams in the tournament and two teams in the elite 8. Meanwhile, the Valley was still struggling to gain the respect required to have multiple conference bids. Who could have forseen the drastic change in fortunes? From Wikipedia's entry on "Mid-Major": For at least the past decade, the Atlantic Ten, Conference USA, the Mountain West Conference, and the Western Athletic Conference had been considered above the level of the other non-BCS conferences (although generally below the level of the six conferences named above). Due to recent changes in membership in those conferences, as well as the sustained success of other non-BCS conferences, many people no longer consider those four conferences to be above the level of other "mid-major" conferences for college basketball based on prestige, performance, recent post-season results, and national perception, both because of a weakening of those conferences and a strengthening of former lower rated conferences (such as the Missouri Valley Conference). This list is not static from year to year, as most fail to agree which conference's during any given year are the "majors". Some refuse to consider the MVC to be a major conference, despite it having outperformed several other conferences that same individual considers "major" (the A-10 and WAC, for instance) for many years now. Regardless, there are many conferences (besides the six BCS conferences) that have regularly had teams advance to the Sweet Sixteen or beyond, regularly challenge for multiple bids per year to the NCAA tournament, have multiple teams "buy" games from lower-ranked conferences, and have all finished in the top 12 in conference attendance every year for the last decade. Many, including college basketball experts, coaches, players and administrators, have agreed that these are just some of the important traits that preclude a conference from being considered a mid-major. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-major Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 The decision to join the A-10 was NOT based solely on the men's basketball team. There were a LOT of other considerations that related to the overall University and also which specifically explain why joining the MVC would not achieve the goals that joining the A-10 was and is expected to achieve. No logical person is going to argue that the A-10 is better than the MVC right now, but this is not a 1 or 2 year decision. "A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 just like 3 or 4 years ago the A10 was clearly superior, the tides will change again. As a whole the A10 has been good for SLU, and it's yet to be decided in basketball. If we finish with 20 wins and don't make the tourney, then the A10 hurt us this year would be a fair argument, but on the other hand we probably wouldn't win as many games in the MVC. The MVC is having one hell of a year. Kudos to them, the gripe everyone (including me) had last year, was not enough big wins. They have certainly solved that problem this year. Does any one know how many top 25 wins they have? Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 I totally agreed with the A-10 move. I have since changed my position and I think with a more years of this type of success in basketball others at SLU may come to my way of thinking. At the end of the day, it comes down to whether people believe the MVC will continue to have this type of success in the future. I understand they have a lot of seniors in the conference this year so maybe a drop-off is coming but in my opinion there are many reasons to believe that this success is not short-term, including: - very strong fan bases (e.g. sold out Bradley games even when they sucked) - new arenas (Creighton has a new one and Missouri St. is building one) - coaches like Dana Altman that aren't going anywhere - the best commisioner in college athletics - a successful conference tournament If one believes that over the long-term the A-10 will be a better basketball conference then the Valley then they won't care about what I say but with Chaney gone at Temple and having seen the bottom half of the A-10 and the barely better than highschool gyms in action I have my doubts. As for the belief that there were other reasons besides mens basketball that we are a better fit in the A-10 I agree with some but disagree with others: Like university argument - agree with for the most part but not sure how valuable that really is East Coast exposure argument - not seeing it given our terrible t.v. contract and few games on ESPN while the Valley seems to get pretty decent exposure, including championship game on CBS. The next round of conference shifts - I have my doubts anything is coming for a long time given the success of the Big East football and basketball. Recruiting - As Brad has admitted as such, we are really regional recruiters and have no advantage recruiting national players...as such I don't think a local player particularly values the A-10 over the Valley and actually may prefer the Valley if they are from our region but not St. Louis. (i.e mid Illinois) Other sports - Its my understanding that the Valley is a pretty good soccer league. I do know the A-10 is bad. Is it a coincidence that our soccer program is having all these problems since we joined the A-10? For the other sports, it is nice that we won the conference tournies but I have no sense of whether that could have been accomplished in the Valley or not. Rivalries - I have enjoyed playing Dayton and Xavier but other than that I doubt we'll ever be rivals with the rest of the conference. Proximity is the key to all great, long term rivalries (UL-UK, MU-ILL, Duke, Carolina, STL-Cubs, Sox-Yankees). I think we would have a lot of fun playing MSU, SIU, Bradley, Creighton, etc. twice a year and those would truly become good rivals. Scheduling - Yes, the Valley can't schedule home and homes with most BCS teams. However, as I pointed out this summer, we weren't able to schedule any new BCS teams this past season. UNC and Miss are carryovers from before. Was this a one year abberation or the new reality? I'm sure I'll get nit-picked for some of my thoughts, and that is fine, but its something I've come to believe over the past year or so. I know Sshoe and Willie disagree with me. Again, I'm not criticizing the original decision because I thought it was the right one at the time given what we knew then but I just think its something we should be considering going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 The A-10 sux. I think the Valley would have helped us develop regional rivalries. It would reduce travel expenses. It would also be easier for our fans to travel to away Valley games. Also, how cool would it be to always be playing your conference tournament in your home town! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 A quick look at their schedules and I calculate them as 4-1 vs. top 25 teams (as determined by ESPN rankings at the time they played) which doesn't include the Xavier win last night. The conference as a whole is 11-10 vs. the BCS conferences. Per Real-time RPI they are the 2nd best conference in the country. It will be very interesting to see if this is just an up cycle or a trend. As I mentioned in another thread I believe it is a trend but we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 you cannot be serious in thinking that if SLU was in the mvc the tourney would still be held in STL every year?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 No one will ever convince me that SLU should have joined the MO Valley over the A-10. Not thrilled with the A-10 by any means, but that is where SLU was at during the time. As for MO Valley soccer inquiry...yes it is a good league...however SMU, South Carolina etc..play in the league for soccer only. Not true Valley teams. This to me is more than just about sports, it is about the whole school, and attracting more kids from outside of the Midwest. I am all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Considering that the Valley has been hosting their conference tourney in St. Louis for a long time and considering that their conference headquarters are located here, I can at least say that it is a hell of a lot more likely that a Valley Conference Tourney (w/SLU) being held here is more likely than an A-10 Conference Tourney ever being held here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 >No one will ever convince me that SLU should have joined the >MO Valley over the A-10. Not thrilled with the A-10 by any >means, but that is where SLU was at during the time. > >As for MO Valley soccer inquiry...yes it is a good >league...however SMU, South Carolina etc..play in the league >for soccer only. Not true Valley teams. > >This to me is more than just about sports, it is about the >whole school, and attracting more kids from outside of the >Midwest. I am all for it. How does this attract kids from outside the area? Because we play Fordham and Rhode Island in sports more east coast kids will want to go to SLU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Ace you said this above... The A-10 sux. I think the Valley would have helped us develop regional rivalries. It would reduce travel expenses. It would also be easier for our fans to travel to away Valley games. Also, how cool would it be to always be playing your conference tournament in your home town! That is a different statemtn than what you just made. Totally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 If it makes you feel better, I'll amend the word "always", but do you know for a fact that the Valley would've moved the tournament if SLU had joined? When is the last time the Valley didn't have their tournamnet here? I know the Valley really wanted SLU. I'm sure part of the negotiations could've included SLU getting a guarantee that the conference would continue to host their tournament in the home of the Valley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 but why would the Valley move their tourney out of St. Louis just because we are located here? The tourney is a huge success and is the geographical center of the conference, not to mention its the only major city in the conference? Plus, in two years the tourney wouldn't even be on our home court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 do you know for a fact it would have stayed??? I understand that the tourney has been in STL for years. I understand that the mvc is based in STL. But since this is all specualtion, let's look at SLU winning the mvc tourney 4 years in a row. Do you think the other AD's and coaches in the conf would just sit there and allow that to continue while the tourney is played in STL? You think SLU was negotiating from such a position of strength to get a guarantee the tourney would remain in STL??? If this guarantee was in place, then slu is nuts for not going to the valley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 >>No one will ever convince me that SLU should have joined the >>MO Valley over the A-10. Not thrilled with the A-10 by any >>means, but that is where SLU was at during the time. >> >>As for MO Valley soccer inquiry...yes it is a good >>league...however SMU, South Carolina etc..play in the league >>for soccer only. Not true Valley teams. >> >>This to me is more than just about sports, it is about the >>whole school, and attracting more kids from outside of the >>Midwest. I am all for it. > >How does this attract kids from outside the area? Because we >play Fordham and Rhode Island in sports more east coast kids >will want to go to SLU? It was my understanding that SLU wants to be a "National" school. SLU has gone from a commuter school most of my life, to a regional school. If that is what you want, have at it. SLU already has the Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, Indiana markets attending the school. While the A10 is not ideal, it is significantly better for the school than the MO Valley...or SLU would be in the Valley. I am not exactly sure how this is even a discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 "While the A10 is not ideal, it is significantly better for the school than the MO Valley...or SLU would be in the Valley. I am not exactly sure how this is even a discussion." Well, this is a basketball message board and we are discussing how bad our current conference is and how good the conference that we spurned turned out to be. That is how the discussion started. Your point that SLU wants to attract more East Coast kids is a good one, but I'm wondering if anybody has any evidence that this is working. Did we see a large spike in kids interested in SLU from New England and Philly during the past couple of years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 This is a long term process. Building rivalries, building success. Your statement is the equivalent of giving a coach 1 year to be successful or leave. The A10 had good teams as recently as a few years ago. It regresses and the MO Valley gets better during that time and everyone panics. SLU basketball needs to worry more about winning the A10 than ripping it. The exposure of the A10 even in bad years, is so ridiculously more than small town Nebraska, Iowa, rural Il and rural MO it is ridiculous. If people want to have that, ...that is fine. I hold a different opinion. Great for the Valley that they have Turgeon, Lowery etc..for a few years. Good for the region, and good when they come to St, Louis to spend their money. SLU on the other hand is a different story and are rightfully in a different place. Down the road, longterm, if SLU can be a major force in conference sports, especially hoops, they wil have a much greater chance in the long term future of entering a high powered league from the A10 than the Valley. And that I thought was the goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 "A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLouBlue Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 In the past I know SMU & Vandy played soccer in the MVC but no other sports, they have both moved on. Western Kentucky & Eastern Illinois are the only 2 schools that are doing that now. I also think SLU baseball would have been a good fit in the MVC. The MVC usually gets 2 bids for baseball--the automatic & an at large, while I believe the A10 usually only gets the automatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 And the league is much weaker with SMU joining South Carlina etc..in C-USA past two years...and Vandy building a nice program, discontinued theirs. Again, these are non-revenue sports that rely on basketball for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLouBlue Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 kshoe, welcome aboard the MVC bandwagon. I have been making this argument the last few years that the MVC is a quality league and SLU would fit in well with the league. I have tried in the past to explain that the MVC was a league on the rise and joining would not be the doom and gloom move that most on this board believed. I understand the reasons for joining the A10 and I am okay with those, however I am disappointed in the A10 especially in MBB. I still think it was telling that the A10 didn't kick out St Bonny after their scandal that went up to the president of the school. The bottom of the A10 is killing the league, I think the bottom 3-4 teams have probably cost at least one NCAA bid per year for the last 3 years. I see a very bright future for the MVC, with new or updated arenas at most schools, coaching stablity at most schools and improving TV contracts. Creighton newer arena, WSU newly remodeled, Bradley renovation scheduled, UNI new arena, Mo St new arena in works and most others have been renovated w/in the last 10 years--SIU is probably the exception here. Lowery alum of SIU, Les alum of Bradley along with Altman and Turgeon getting paid more than most BCS coaches. MVC championship game is on CBS and more games are being shown on the ESPN network than before. I don't see where the MVC has peaked yet. I think there is the potential for the conference to be among the top 7 year in and year out. I do think it is too bad for SLU that they are not a part of this, but from the response on this board, I am also glad. I think even with this success SLU fans would still feel slighted to have ended up in the MVC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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