UB

[MU88]

>At of all the schools you listed above one GW might be a

>fair comparison to SLU and you would still have to factor in

>the fact that Hobbs did it with players that didn't graduate

>high school.

>

>The biggest joke is when you mentioned Williams took over a

>losing program at UNC. He took over goddamn UNC! Loaded

>with All-Americans and first round picks. Idiotic

>comparison.

>

>First you need to knock off all the big state u's off your

>list. They are not a fair comparison. Any coach ay SLU

>will never have the same resources available to him as a

>coach at those schools.

>

>You mention Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette. Are you

>familiar with the continued success at those programs over

>the last 30 years? You are obviously not. If you were, you

>would know that those teams and coaches are not really a

>good comparison to what Brad inherited here.

>

>Finally you mentioned Creighton. The best comparison out

>of your very flawed list, but maybe you should look at

>Altman's start at CU and compare it to Brad's. It is not

>that different. Here is the link:

>http://www.gocreighton.com/items_of_intere...s.asp?BiosID=68

>.

>

>Am I happy were we are at now? No. Do I think Brad is the

>right guy for the job? Probably. We need to give him this

>season at least before we make that judgment.

>

>

>You really need to know what you are talking about, before

>you start making these types of comparrissons.

Yes, most of the schools are BCS schools. But, you know what, most of the top 50 programs are BCS schools. Limit it to schools that are in the same academic ballbark as SLU and the pickings are few. There are a handful of non-BCS schools that turned it around in 5 years. For example, Wichita State and UTEP. And, how about Memphis? Cal took over a program with 2 consecutive losing seasons and won 20 in his first year. However, they are not in SLU league off the court. As for claiming that Creighton is similar to SLU, lets looks at Altman's numbers:

1998-99 Creighton University 22-9 .710 NCAA Tournament

1997-98 Creighton University 18-10 .643 NIT

1996-97 Creighton University 15-15 .500

1995-96 Creighton University 14-15 .483

1994-95 Creighton University 7-19 .269

Did you know he inherited a 7-22 team? BS inherited a 15-16 team, I believe. Notice the constant improvement at Creighton.

All I am hearing from the BS apologists are excuses, its the tough academics at SLU, its the non-BCS status of the A-10, its this and that.

[kshoe]

nm

[Battlecat455]

You've subjectively assigned numbers to categories to fulfill your own agenda. How terribly meaningful! It's apparent you don't like UB. Making it appear as though there is some analytical process going on is disingenuious. Frankly, I could care less what you think.

[brianstl]

I asked you what Spoon and Zo did as far as program building. I must have missed all those local guys that they got that where here for four years. I must have missed them landing the Carrawells, the Woods, the Ryan Robertsons, and the McKinneys. Do you think either of them left the team in better shape for their replacement? I don't. I think Spoon left Romar with less talent than he inherited and I think Romar left Brad with less talent than he inherited. That is not even mentioning the shape they both left the program in when it comes to local recruiting.

***** all you want to about Brad and recruiting. He has landed more talented local players out of HS than Romar or Spoon.

[SLUDrew]

The argument that Spoon and Romar didn't push the program forward so how can we expect Brad to, is a little ridiculous. Do we never want this program to move forward. If each successive Coach is only measured against his predecessor than how do you get anywhere? Why is not okay to hold Brad to higher standards than Roma, and the next Coach to higher standards than Brad. Do you always want this program to be mired in mediocrity? Its not like Brad is being held to a ridiculous standard either. At this point we would be happy with one NCAA appearance in 5 years. If you don't want at least that much out of a SLU coach then you sure don't think much of this program.

[brianstl]

I want better results. I think we will see them this year. But let's not kid ourselves about some of the things that Brad had to overcome. Has he been perfect? No. I do think if we get to the tournament this year the program will be in the best shape it has been in since the season leading up to Clagget's and Highmark's last year.

[billiken_roy]

i agree with brian. currently we have a very good roster. imo the deepest roster i have seen since i started being a billiken fan in 1977. is it the best billiken team? i dont know. it has a chance to be. if ian starts living up to his pre-season hype and we get more from our bench i think this team can go into the ncaa tourney with some w's. ironically, the billiken teams that i think might have been the best, bonnertime, was robbed of ncaa time because of the conference they were in, this team might be in the same boat. 22-even 25 wins might not be enough.

[kshoe]

"Do you think either of them left the team in better shape for their replacement?"

How in the world can somebody argue that Spoon didn't leave this program vastly improved from when he took over?

We were 5-23 the year before Spoon. He took us to 3 NCAA appearances in 8 years, the first since the 50's. He regularly sold out the Kiel/Savvis when prior to that we were happy with 7k at a game. The season ticket base likely quadrupled during his tenure. Although he left after a .500 year, that year we played the 31st toughest schedule in the country. The team he left made the NCAA tounrey the following year AND two of the 3 recruits he landed before leaving were Marquee Perry and Maurice Jeffers, the two players closest to the NBA except Hughes.

Bash Zo all you want but stop dragging Spoon's name in the mud as if he didn't accomplish great things for this program. He put us on the map.

[slufanskip]

Teams comparable to SLU ... Most BCS conference schools are not and I agree it has and can be done, it's just not anywhere near the norm. Why do you give a f... anyway. Could it be you just dislike Brad.

Nobody on your first list is comparable except GW. And they certainly haven't shown any stability. I'm sure you would admit it is easier to turn a program like Georgetown around with their tradition than it is SLU.

I would cosider Marquette (Marquette is Big East now, but wasn't when Crean did it)and Creighton good examples as I would SIU, X, Gonzaga, I think schools like Nevada who are building a good tradition would be consisered a success also.

Now how many of these schools made the turnaround in less than 5 years with the initial coach who got it started and then sustained the success. Not many in the world of D1 coaches.

Why compare him with all D1 coaches ... because that is what he is, and that is who his peers are. Or maybe just the A10 coaches to start. I'll make the same argument. How can he have a team that finished in the top 25% but be below average in game day coaching and recruiting. How can below average players with bad coaching finish near the top. It confuses me. Maybe I'm just slow.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[slufanskip]

I think we have to consider the job Crean did at Marquette as a fair comparison. Marquette was not a BCS conference at the time.

My point is simple ... you are comparing Brad to something that gets done maybe 5% of the time in all D1 basketball including schools above and below us in the hierarchy.

GW is not a fair comparison either as they haven't sustained crap. and they won't be in the tourney this year.

Anyone know a site where I can get a list of all tourney teams over the last 5 years?

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[slufanskip]

thanks

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[brianstl]

A team that was a one year aberration at 5-23. The team's record in the six seasons before that was 124-72. They went to the NIT three times after not making the post season in 22 years. He took over a team that was loaded with young talent. Don't act like the program was a mess.

Spoon got Larry for two reasons and two reasons only. Larry's brothers health and that fact the Hughes family's benafactor wanted him to go to SLU. He was a lazy recruiter who missed out on Keane, Carrawell, Woods, and Ryan Robertson. He did not land one impact local kid outside of Hughes. He destroyed the local recruiting base. The program would have been better off long term with keeping Grawer.

What I asked you and will ask you again did Spoon leave the team with more talent than when he took over?

[moytoy12]

"currently we have a very good roster. imo the deepest roster i have seen since i started being a billiken fan in 1977."

Then why are we only going 7 deep?

[moytoy12]

"You've subjectively assigned numbers to categories to fulfill your own agenda."

Umm...isn't that what everyone's doing?

[slufanskip]

try to understand ... if you were Metz, wouldn't you be unhappy with everything. I mean seriously, he got dealt a bad hand.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[brianstl]

The rotation has to become deeper. We are not going to get it done with a seven man rotation.

[SShoe]

I have to agree with Brian on this. With the exception of Hughes in 97, when did SPOon or even romar ever pull in any recruits of note. I guess I can say J-Love in 98, but part of that was because he thought he'd be playing with Larry. Brad has landed 3 as far as I'm concerned and that's still more than Romar.

[moytoy12]

I agree.

[TheRaginCajun]

I struggle to see where the depth you speak of comes from.

[kshoe]

Waldman

Carl Turner

David Robinson

Jeff Harris

Jamal Johnson

Marquee Perry

Maurice Jeffers

Heinrich

Baniak (top 100)

J-Love

For what its worth, I have no idea how this thread got on this subject. Nashvillle said we shouldn't hold Brad to the standard of making the NCAA tourney because SLU "rarely" makes the tourney. I pointed out that before Brad had arrived we had been to 4 NCAA tournies in 10 years. Brian then went on some rant about how those shouldn't count because they were with Grawers recruits, Hughes and because we won the conference tourney. Then Brian asks me how did Romar and Spoon improve the program? I pointed out how much better the Spoon years were than the preceeding years and all of a sudden I'm being hit with recruiting questions about Spoon.

[kshoe]

for such a positive Billiken fan you sure do have it in for that guy.

Since you asked:

The top six players that Spoon left Romar:

Marquee Perry

Justin Love

Maurice Jeffers

Chris Heinrich

Matt Baniak

Justin Tatum

Players that Spoon got from Grawer:

Erwin Clagget

Scott Highmark

I can't remember any others so correct me if I'm missing somebody

From the data above I think the answer is obvious.

[SShoe]

I'm not knocking the Spoon years by any means because let's face it, those were the best years. But Spoon certainly had his issues as a recruiter. His best years were with Rich's recruits (Waldmen was the exception). For every one you noted (I'm not sure Carl Turner can be considered a quality recruit) there was a Sekue Barantine or Larry Simmons.

For as much as we knock Brad on his recruiting, when compared to previous SLU coaches, he's done a pretty decent job. Is he a great recruiter? No, I can't put him in that realm. But is he a poor recruiter like many have suggested? No way. I guess I just think people have concentrated so much on Brad's shortcomings (and I'm just as unhappy as the next guy on the lack of a class this year), we've failed to give credit to him for recruits that have panned out pretty well (Reggie, Luke, DP, TL, KL, and IV).

[davidnark]

...but Skip, Soderberg and Biondi stated that their plan was to make SLU a top 50 program. This requires success on the same level of mostly BCS schools. By setting that goal, they have brought on the comparisons.

[brianstl]

One local kid out of high school and five transfers or JC kids. That’s how you build a winner at SLU. I was just saying you are holding Brad to a standard that didn't seem to apply to the two previous coaches, especially when it came to local recruiting.

Local recruiting is the key to sustained success at SLU. Brad is the best at it since Grawer.

You acted like SLU was down for years and not just one before Spoon got here. They averaged 20 wins a season before that year. His best two teams were with those Grawer recruits. The program was ready to soar. Spoon was handed the keys to a loaded Porsche and never bothered to perform the proper maintenance.

[courtside]

Recruiting hurt BS early years at SLU. He is improving. The keys are recruiting kids other schools actually want, like TL or KL. Those are the two local kids others didn't want that he secured.

It will be interesting to see how he does with the local junior class too.

Other things that have hurt besides recrutiting, is his lack of desire to want to sell the program, and the style of play. Attendance has gone down. If you want to play the hold the ball style of play that BS has played til this year, people will not come unless you are near undefeated great. So the point is there are underlying negative opinions on BS becasue of areas besides recruiting.

Recruiting inside out, regionally, will make him successful. No reason he can't get kids from the region, and not just locally too.