Does this seem like deja vu, again?

[Sheltiedave]

A good honest coach vs the salesman.

We got it with Stemmler, now Stemler gets recruited over and gets to sit.

BY GREG COUCH Sun-Times Columnist

The saga of Eric Gordon, one of the consensus top three high school players in the country, is finally over. He has backed out of his commitment to the University of Illinois and made a new one to Indiana University. And we all know what they say about a man and his word.

This is devastating for Illini coach Bruce Weber. You have to wonder whether he has what it takes to land a major big-time player. And it's going to be life-altering news to the Illinois fans who have filled the chatrooms for months, calling Hoosiers coach Kelvin Sampson dirty names, Gordon a liar and the people from Indiana the great unwashed. Indiana fans have fought back in their own chatrooms in a modern recruiting rumble.

I want to give my take on this thing, but first I have to wash my hands. This story does that to me.

Weber wouldn't talk about Gordon as Illinois opened practice Friday. NCAA rules prohibit him from talking now about specific recruits, so he said he would ''talk about recruiting somewhere down the road.'' He equated the start of practice with ''having a real life.''

Yes, this Gordon thing was surreal. It was about two grown basketball coaches and thousands of grown basketball fans fighting over a child, begging him, pleading, praying. We know it's wrong to go so overboard about our kids, and we get this message all the time when the kids crumble. Really, though, how are the Illini going to survive without him?

While at dinner once with the late and legendary college coach Jack Hartman, I asked him why he had retired when he did. Turned out, he couldn't bring himself, a grown man, to go into a kid's living room to beg anymore. It was just too demeaning.

In the 10 years or so since then, times have changed, and the begging has taken in modern technology. Here's what it came down to with :

This is a dirty, slimy, scummy business, and it takes a dirty, slimy, scummy coach to succeed. Sampson won the battle. And when I said Weber might not have what it takes for this stuff, that wasn't entirely an insult.

Weber is going to have a hard time getting past this. He has been fighting this whole hayseed thing ever since he got to Illinois. He spent too many years as an assistant at Purdue and as the head coach at Southern Illinois to be seen as a big-timer. Illini basketball is always one step behind the true elite. It's frustrating. And while I never understood the infatuation with Bill Self, the Illini nation thought it had a hero in him because of his smooth image and ESPN appearances. It seemed devastating when he left and worse when he was replaced by a guy from Carbondale.

Stupid stuff, but fans didn't believe in Weber and players didn't listen. It helped when he got to the national championship game in 2005, but he was doing it with Self's players, right? Self, by the way, never would have taken those players that far.

Weber still can't entirely get past this. He needed a statement, and that was Gordon. Land the biggest of big fish, and others would follow.

Gordon's commitment to Illinois was Weber's ticket. But it was a non-binding, oral commitment. And then Indiana hired Sampson, who immediately ran to his phone to ask Gordon to reconsider.

The fight was between Sampson and Weber. And Sampson proved to be the better man. When I say ''better,'' I'm saying he was more effective in the dirty, slimy, scummy world.

I'm not sure Weber has the inner dirtbag for this kind of stuff. And if he doesn't, then Illinois will suffer. Weber is a good man and a good coach, and that just doesn't sell.

I have to wash my hands again.

These early oral commitments have developed over the years as a way of helping kids get through all the daily phone calls, e-mails or text messages -- 50 a day, 100 a day -- and get back to the usual teenage stuff to worry about.

And in came Sampson, fresh to a new job after leaving Oklahoma in trouble for his dirty recruiting scandal.

There is no battle with the inner dirtbag for Sampson. While with the Sooners, he had been busted by the NCAA for making phone calls to recruits when rules prohibited it. How many calls? Not five. Not 10. Two hundred thirty-three. He built his teams -- and his name -- on cheating. His success at Oklahoma led to the Indiana job, one of the truly elite jobs.

The Hoosiers knew what they were getting. They know he knows how to play the game.

This is what he said when the NCAA ruled against him: ''I have learned an invaluable lesson, and I hope that this reinforces to other coaches the importance of every aspect of NCAA compliance.''

I have to wash my hands.

Sampson was punished, too. He can't make phone calls to recruits or make off-campus visits. How long do you think it took him to realize that text messages were the way around the ban?

So he hired Gordon's dad's college coach as an assistant. Then he is said to have hired Gordon's AAU coach in some capacity that allowed him to slip around rules limiting contact with players.

Sampson earned this.

You know, Gordon apparently has found this whole thing upsetting. And if Weber thought about it, he would realize the official signing date hasn't actually come and Gordon's ''commitment'' is still soft. Meanwhile, the kid is a little vulnerable.

But I doubt Weber will think that through. He's not the right man for that.

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ON THE RECRUITING TRAIL

Players ranked on consensus top-100 lists that Illinois narrowly has missed out on under coach Bruce Weber:

IN-STATE PLAYERS

Shaun Livingston, Peoria Central, 2004

Choice: Duke

• Down to Duke and Illinois, wore an Illinois jersey to school, then picked Duke the next day. Went straight to NBA and was taken fourth overall by Clippers. Weber entered late because he was just hired and didn't have full recruiting cycle.

Julian Wright, Homewood-Flossmoor, 2005

Choice: Kansas

• Down to Illinois and Arizona before Kansas coach Bill Self swooped in and stole him with a home visit.

Justin Dentmon, Carbondale, 2005

Choice: Washington

• Signed with Illinois State. Reported insinuations that Illinois tried to steal him via prep school route became moot when he failed to qualify, nullifying his letter-of-intent.

Jon Scheyer, Glenbrook North, 2006

Choice: Duke

• Came down to Duke, Illinois and Arizona. Coach K won, even though Scheyer's coach was Dave Weber, Bruce's brother.

Sherron Collins, Crane, 2006

Choice: Kansas

• It was between Kansas and Illinois. Kansas' Midnight Madness worked the magic.

Derrick Rose, Simeon, 2007

Choice: TBD

• Didn't even put Illini among his final five of Kansas, DePaul, Indiana, UCLA and Memphis.

Evan Turner, St. Joseph, 2007

Choice: Ohio State

• Weber thought Turner was a lock. Then he switched up and became a Buckeye.

OUT-OF-STATE PLAYERS

Illinois made the final three for each player.

2005

• Brandon Rush (Mo.) Kansas

• Luke Zeller (Ind.) Notre Dame

• Tyler Smith (Tenn.) Tennessee

2006

• Willie Kemp (Tenn.) Memphis

• Scotty Reynolds (Okla.) Villanova

• Marques Johnson (Ind.) Tennessee

• Isaiah Dahlman (Minn.) Michigan State

2007

• Alex Tyus (Ohio) Florida

• Dar Tucker (Mich.) DePaul

Sun-Times

[3star_recruit]

How does the recruitiment of a shooting guard force Stemler to sit? It's combo forward Brandon McGee that will make a run at Stemler's job, not Gordon.

[slufanskip]

I think it's pretty clear that Sampson did more than just sit. I would question Law's statement that Gordon's dad initiated the contact. As I have said ... any coach that honors a verbal to Indiana is a fool.

Sampson is a scumbag.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

[tseugnekillib]

If Gordon comes in and gets major minutes on the wing ...... it potentially dimishes Stemler's minutes as a Indiana wing player. If Stemler gets significant minutes as a BigTen power forward.....congratulations to him and his magic ride from a lowly-recruited high-school player to a prime D1 player on the big stage. Time will tell!

[Sheltiedave]

You're right, 3star. I have Stemmler pegged at the swing forward/guard slot. With McGee and Gordan, Stemmler will find his playing time severely curtailed in his final year.

I find it interesting to see Weber stumbling on the recruiting trail with all the dominoes in play. They have the big time conference, time on ESPN, NBA player development, glowing reviews from ex players, perfect location in a major bball state, above average facilities with a huge bloc of student support, all kinds of alumni money flowing into the coffers, all kinds of tourney exposure with long runs into the big dance, and yet they are consistently losing top 25 player recruiting battles. The only players in-state they win are away from Chicago proper.

It seems obvious to me that building a good program with a coach rather than a snake oil salesman is a more arduous road than I thought.

[SLUMS81]

Shouldn't this prove that Weber is an incompetent failure at recruiting?

[billfan4life]

can we stick to billiken basketball

[slufanskip]

No ... the only way to judge recruiting is by results on the court. Not by stars on internet sites.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

[tseugnekillib]

billfan4life.....come back at a later date.... or start another thread about Florida and Virginia recruiting Suggs or about Griffey being recruited by Kansas.

[Sheltiedave]

Billfan4life, I'm drawing a parallel theme about recruiting. When a coach at a major successful program consistently loses recruiting wars with slick coaches(one who won a recruiting war over a common recruit with us,)the light might dawn that Soderburg and the staff need to win with Knollmeyers, Dixons, and Polks rather than Tyus, Lee, and Gray. IOW, a system and player development.

Sorry for off topics like recruiting.

[TheA_Bomb]

I met Sampson once and that guy is great in person he makes you like him and he is very engaging. You can draw parrallels to people like Bill Clinton and Tom DeLay. I heard from people that DeLay is great a meeting and greeting people. You gotta' be that way to sell yourself.

I think that Brad is a good coach but from the few times I have met him he does not inspire me. Romar was engaging and I believe a genuinely nice guy. The Head Coach is the ambassador and salesman of your program. I do not want a crooked coach but Brad needs to improve as an Ambassador for the program.

[3star_recruit]

"I met Sampson once and that guy is great in person he makes you like him and he is very engaging."

The funny thing is people say the same thing about Bruce Weber and yet top recruits are choosing shady characters like Sampson instead. As long as the NCAA allows this charade of hiring recruits' parents as assistant coaches/hiring AAU coaches as "consultants"/wrist slapping of illegal contacts to occur, it will continue.

[tseugnekillib]

A_Bomb said......." I met Sampson once and that guy is great in person he makes you like him and he is very engaging."

I have met the following Samspon-like Ambassadors to the games of college basketball....all outgoing, engaging, wonderful human beings!

Dave Bliss

Eddie Sutton

Jim Harrick

Bobby Huggins

[Scoop]

If it is up to the actual recruits, one has to be reminded that it is mostly 17 to 18 KIDS making this decision. I'm sure the parents are invloved. However, if the decision is left to the athlete, they can be easily persuaded.

[brianstl]

Can we cut back a little bit on the love for Weber and IL? This is a SLU board.

[Band Legend]

This thread is as much about SLU as any on this board. You could just substitute Stemmler's name for Gordon and Soderberg's for Weber. I know Stemmler hadn't oralled to SLU, so the parallel is not entirely accurate, but the scumbag remains the same. Why do Bruce Weber and Brad Soderberg have to apologize for being stand-up guys? I'll tell you why; many college basketball fans could give a crap about ethics as long as their beloved team wins.

[billiken_roy]

while i cant stand the likes of sampson who has been caught cheating and now lowers himself into the scum on every occasion, let's not lose sight of the fact that weber tried to continue kevin after kevin had verballed and asked weber to back off. weber isnt all the saint either.