bauman Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 At least the last 2 games, but it seems like quite a few times, we are coming out from halftime not ready to play. Whatever Brad is saying in the locker room, he needs to take a different approach. Tough night at Oakland at the line with 2 of our better FT shooters, TL and DB, not having a good night. We have to do better at the line if we want to do well in close games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 2nd half starts are like the begining of the games - we have generally started slow in games so I am not surprised to see the same occur at the begining of the second half. It probably is nothing Brad is saying or doing just the nature of the team - I do think that at UNC, they might have come out and wondered a little about when they were going to wake up from their dream so the slow start in the second half did not surprise me. Then they woke up and realized that it was not a dream and got down to business. What bothers me more is that IV seems to have developed foulitis recently. If he is on the bench this is a big problem for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Our opponents are averaging a lot more points in the 2nd half than in the first just judging from the stats page at SLUBillikens.com. Eastern scored 7 more in the 2nd half than in the first Hawaii score 4 fewer (2nd vs. 1st half), but outscored us in the 2nd half by 8 SIU scored 4 more in the 2nd half than in the first UWM scored 20 more in the 2nd half than in the first Jackson State scored one less in the 2nd half, but we scored 9 less in the 2nd half than in the first UNC scored 13 more in the 2nd half; we scored 5 fewer. Oakland scored 3 more in the 2nd half, but we scored 12 fewer in the second half vs. the 1st We seem to get off to a quick start, but in the second half it appears that our defense lets down, the opponent scores and we get fewer opportunities to score as a result. Just a guess, but that's what it seems to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Afan - your stats don't prove we get off to a fast start in the first half - all it shows is that the other team is also off to a slow start. I disagree, our scoring early in the game has generally been slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 the answer is to play lisch. imo not starting lisch the second half was a huge factor in our unc loss. the best player in the first half deserved to start the half. that has to be a mental letdown to not only lisch but the rest of the team when the hot hand heads to the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken75 Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 I really like Kevin Lisch... With that said, he is a freshman and in his first 20 games, I expect ups and downs. For example, his scoring in the Oakland game was down... he maintained good defense. In the UNC game, he was a great 6th man coming off the bench and I don't think him not starting in the 2nd half altered the game. We were within 1 pt with 8 or so minutes left to play - it is not like he or the team collapsed with Kevin not starting the 2nd half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 I agree with Roy. Lisch was the calming factor in the first half when we were struggling, being down 7-0 and he hit his early shots. The 2nd half started and we had similar problems. If a guy has a hot hand, i think you should try and ride it as long as possible. Unfortunatley, I'm not sure who should've sat to start the half considering liddell and drejaj were both playing well and we need polk running the offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 fast starts (obviously not because our scoring in the two halves is just about equal), but compared to some of the teams we have been playing, they are scoring more points in the second half than in the first half. Define it however you want, but we must be defending better in the first half and/or tired by the second half. Either way, it hurts our performance, at least as long as you define performance by points scored. By the way, they are not my stats, they are the published stats of the team and don't worry, it's not a court of law; not trying to "prove" anything, just stating an observation about the skewedness of the scoring by halves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Across the board for all teams there is more scoring, on average. Near the end of most 1st halfs you see teams holding for the last shot or just playing it out as you normally would. At the 2 minute or so mark of many second halfs in close games it becomes a foul the other team, shoot quick three pointers game where the average possesion is less than 10 seconds. It would not be uncommon for both teams to score 10+ points in the final minutes of a game but it would certainly be rare to see that type of scoring near the end of the 1st half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Except that that rule has not applied to the Billikens on a consistent basis. We have scored 231 1st half points and 227 second half points. Our opponents have scored 198 1st half points and 240 2nd half points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Afan - why post stats and offer an interpretion (by the way I never questioned their accuracy) if you are not willing to have people respond to how you are using them. I just simply drew a different interpretation and tried to explain why and how. By the way, go back and reread your original post you do in fact say that we are getting off to better starts in the first half than the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Afan - look at what you just posted - you are concluding that we are getting off to slower starts in the second half by showing that we have scored 4 fewer points total in the second half than the first to date - that is virtually the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 So to satisfy my curiosity I plotted the 03-04 Billikens 1st and second halfs and their opponets. What I found was on average our opponents scored 6.1 points per game more in the 2nd half and we scored 7.7 points per game more. Now this could just be one odd year but if we assume 6 points per game more in the 2nd half is the norm that would make your point above that our opponents have scored 42 point more in the second half (over 7 games) show that our defense has been as good in the 2nd half as it is in the 1st half. The question then would be why our offense hasn't scored more in the 2nd halfs? Not sure I know but my guess is that our youth and inexperience has played into it. I don't think its an issue with Brad's halftime speaches as historically we've been just as good as the opponents during the 2nd half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaleJarr Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Unfortunatley, I'm not sure who should've sat to start the half considering liddell and drejaj were both playing well and we need polk running the offense. I would have sat Polk. It's not like Carolina was pressing. Lisch was not only making shots, he was also creating easy opportunities for guys like Johnson. Instead of getting blitzed by Carolina at the start of the half we possibly could have played them evenly. Who knows what happens then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I don't care how you interpret what I say. I don't care if you comment on what I say. My latter paragraph was just making the point that I wasn't trying to "prove" anything; just making an observation. Chill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 >Afan - look at what you just posted - you are concluding >that we are getting off to slower starts in the second half >by showing that we have scored 4 fewer points total in the >second half than the first to date - that is virtually the >same! Huh? I think you are confused. I never "concluded" anything and I never said that we are getting off to slow 2nd half starts. I posted some data that shows our opponents are scoring more points in the 2nd half than in the first half. We, however, are not. I stated that it may be due to a defensive let down. Besides, in my post in the first thread above, I already stated that our halves have been equal. Here is what I said: "My point wasn't really that we are off to absolute fast starts (obviously not because our scoring in the two halves is just about equal), but compared to some of the teams we have been playing, they are scoring more points in the second half than in the first half. Define it however you want, but we must be defending better in the first half and/or tired by the second half. Either way, it hurts our performance, at least as long as you define performance by points scored." Kshoe explained why teams, in general, may score more in the 2nd half and his explanation makes sense. However, for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be applying to the Billikens this year. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Afan - you are the one blowing a gasket. Let me point one more thing out to you - a board like this is for the purpose of someone as yourself making some kind of an observation based on or not data and for someone such as myself to respond to what you post. If you do not want people to read, consider, and make comments then don't post just read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Wow! Sorry to upset you so much. I really didn't mean to agitate you. I think you just misinterpreted what I wrote as if I was pushing a point of view. I was just citing some stats. I have very often said that I am not a basketball expert at all; you guys will forget more than I will ever know. That is precisely why I generally stick to posting statistics instead of making long, grand arguments about the team. Sorry if that upsets you, but I have every right to post just like you do. You probably shouldn't take it so seriously; we're all Billikens fans here. Keep this in mind, not everyone here has a strong opinion on the team's play. Some of us just like to join in the discussions with observations or facts. I think you prefer to debate every post which is great, it adds to the discussion, but not everyone approaches the board with the same attitude (at least on the basketball side, the other board is totally different - e.g. politics, arena, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 was why doesnt the hot hands or best 1st halfs start the second half. when i wrote that i was thinking of the unc game. but i wouldnt say that with oakland in mind where kevin apparently did very little to stand out in the first half unlike the unc game. that said, think about it. kevin has his best game and played a huge half that basically handed us a lead in the biggest game of the year thus far, and is rewarded with .........nothing. could that have contributed to his very nothing oakland game? i know a player has to be able to motivate themselves and be ready at all times, but the point is, reward the kids with the extra pt and spotlight when they earn it. not only will that serve to motivate them, but i would think that the others could never afford to be complacent knowing that a let down might set you behind someone in the rotation. there isnt a lot a college coach has to offer as a carrot at the college level expect playing time. use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 BRoy, I don't know where in the game KL got his minutes on Sat, but 3 fouls, 2 to's and no fg's don't do a heckuva lot to warrant more and your paragraph about needing rewarding flies totally contrary to all your previous KL posts about a great attitude. I truly hope KL becomes the greatest Billiken of all time, I really do, but unitl that time I think you do him a disservice on this board with your inabilty to objective about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Agreed, Broy, on Lisch at UNC. Even the NC fans couldn't figure that out. They didn't think much of DP, but thought a whole lot of KL, who upon getting in the game took a little wind out of the crowd's lungs and may have prevented what looked to be the start of a blow out. I don't know if KL could have stopped Hansboro, not sure Bill Russell could have the way he was playing, but he sure could have provided a counter to his scoring when DP was doing very little. I don't think it's a rule the second half lineup has to be same as the first half, but that's what we always seem to get. KL might very well have stopped UNC from ganging up on IV to start the half whereas they weren't afraid of DP at all. Who would be? If you're 5'9" and you ain't hitting from the outside they sure as hell want you to try and drive inside against a packed D with a very good big man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 cowboy, that is why i posted the "what i really meant" post, where i indeed did compare the two games. of course none of us saw the game. we had to go with ramsey and earl comments. we rarely heard kevin's name. as in he hardly played or had the ball in his hands. makes one scratch their head when in one game he basically kept the team from getting blown out, then doesnt get the second half start and then the next game hardly plays or gets the ball. but my point was, why is the second half start always the same as the first? play the second half with whomever played the best in the first half at the needed positions. the discussion point was about why slow second half starts, and if the first half started badly until other impact players came in my thoughts are play the guys that saved our butts the first half. i dont see how that is not an objective statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I had a son who played high school and college ball and he was much like Kevin in attitude although not as good an all around player. Your email reads like some of the thoughts I had when my son was sitting on the bench when players that I thought had less ability, effectiveness or intensity were playing. The problem is that a person can be too close to the situation and lose all objectivity. Kevin will be a great player over the next four years. He has been an outstanding addtion to the Billikens. I love his hard nosed play, BUT.. I think you do tremendous harm to this young man if you are to suggest that his bad game at Oakland is a direct result of him not starting the second half against NC. For gosh sakes, we have only played 7 games! The coach is experimenting with his rotation and is trying to get the most out of everybody. His subtitutions on Sat. were excellent and his continued faith in players that we have almost given up on is amazing. JJ, VN and even Danny were considered dead meat just a few weeks ago and yet they made nice contributions. Kevin will undoubtedly make many contributions in the future. Let's just let the young man play. His season so far is exactly what you would expect from a freshman who is playing big minutes. He has times of brilliance and times that he reverts back to high school where he forces shots and passes. Patience is a virtue, particularly with young players. Go Bills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 The problem at the UNC game was that if KL was going to replace anybody it was going to be AD and AD had the hot hand. Coach has made it clear that DP is his pg and that others that play it at times will strictly be because DP needs a breather or is in foul trouble. I am sorry but I disagree that DP's playing in the second half at UNC caused us to loose that game - he played just fine and made some very key baskets. Many - including myself have always said that KL's time will come from AD and unfortunately for KL, AD is shooting the lights out with the ball. This is the issue not coach not rewarding KL. He simply is stuck behind a senior who is excelling at the moment. Given AD's past performance, he probably will not be able to keep this torrid pass up and KL will get his minutes again. After all, he is a freshman and is playing big minutes as it is compared to what other freshman have gotten with Brad in the past at SLU. As far as the UNC crowd's thoughts - who cares, they saw one half and they are going to be forming opinions of players from that - sorry, that is not right nor would it be right for us to do it for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 no i am not saying that. and i apologize if that is what was interpretted. as i said later, none of us saw the next game. so we dont know what happened. i think it can affect a player that is chomping at the bit for a chance to move up and they have what appears to be a breakout game and then not only doesnt get that chance to move up, but actually is thrown back. is that what happened, we dont know. it might have. it might have been that kevin just didnt play well in the very limited time he had saturday. we dont know. but the orignal question was why we dont start the second half well, and i used the kevin example from unc. i truly did not want to comment specifically on the oakland game for kevin when i made my original comments. the comments should have been kept out of the discussion and for that i apologize only because it confuses the discussion topic we were on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.