SLU_Nick Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 I happened to catch a holiday tourney in Washington DC over Christmas break. And the talent here seems to be leagues ahead of the midwest. I watched a team from bowie MD (public school) they could have probably beaten SLU. Most of them were like 6'2 doing reverse dunks in warm ups. But the bigs are what really caught my eye. Two were 6'7 and strong. They were playing good D, knocking down 10 footers and getting all the put backs against taller players. That is all SLU needs. They dont need IV's hoping that they turn into Dirk Nowitski and they can do better that plodders who just lumber up the floor. IMO I would rather have brad recruit 6'7, 6'8 athletes and teach them to play big then recuit 7' big men and try to teach them to be atheletic. I know he has JJ but there is better out there. Most people on this board are calling for more playing time for JJ right now anyway. And I know the "we need more athletes" conversation has been going on forever but I dont see why we cant get more, because in DC and im sure in other big cities there are plenty of them. And every single one of them is not an academic concern. I'm sure other people have seen this outside our little St Louis community Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalensdad2002 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 I tend to agree with your post. I never understood offering scholarships to 7'0 giants who never develop. In addition stop offering scholarships to 6'6 players who don't have perimeter skills. I agree there are far too many highly athletic 6'7-6'9 guys in the country. It's just a matter of doing the leg work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 I disagree ... the problem is you don't know if a 7' guy will or won't develop, and if you have an opportunity to land a guy that you think could develop, there are enough spots on a teams roster to take a chance. In todays basketball world ... 7'ers whose athleticism have caught up their size are going to the NBA. I don't think you can fairly judge BH or IV until their Jr years. IMO especially BH ... that is what he was recruited for. I don't think we had expectations of him doing much until then. We expected TF to play 30 min with IV filling in the rest or most of it. Because TF (as learned in the post today, has had multiple concussions this year) we have been forced to play IV more or alter our lineup ... the guys are put into positions they are not ready for. At this point I have no complaints about BH. Where he is physically or with his effort when I have seen him on the floor. When I saw IV in practice I was really pleased ... but when he is on the floor in games he seems emotionless ... I don't know if that can be taught or changed. In the game against ORU ... Bryce looked very good for a 7' freshman with 3 more years to learn. He was agressive on the defensive end and altered the game. Offensively he was just what I expected. Against SEMO ... he looked lost offensively ... but on defense, I don't think he was scored on by #4 and didn't allow the guy to go baseline. He got down low on him and used his large wingspan to force the guy back in the middle. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 If Tom has had 3 concussions this year they should shut him down and say thanks for the memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 i dont have a problem taking on a "project" that might be quite the bonanza if he develops especially if he is 7 foot tall. i do have a problem taking on two projects at the same time. imo, we should have taken either or between ian and bryce and looked for an immediate inside contributor with the other scholarship. the fact is that neither is a significant contributor yet and we desparately need one on the inside. gonzaga has made a habit out of taking a project every couple of years, redshirting him and then letting him grow into a contributor. so the process isnt without successful example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 it sure explains a lot about what tom has (or hasnt) done this year. i too wish only the best for tom frericks and at this point, he needs to look out for his own health and well being for hopefully a lot of years forward. take care of yourself tom. that is far more important at this point. the fact that tom frericks has tried to play now knowing what we know shows what a tough man this is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 We had other scholarships to give ... the reason we don't have a big time 4 has nothing to do with IV or BH. It is because we can't find one that wants to come here. First off UB has only had 2 real recruiting years ... so having big time depth at this point is a pipe dream. With the holes left to him we had starter roles and 1st line sub roles to fill. I think he had a plan at the 5 for the next 4 or 5 years ... and I don't disagree with his selections. Here is my opinion of what he had in mind. TF ... starter at center for 2 years. IV ... back up TF the first two years playing 10 minutes or so pg. Start his 3rd year and start or compete with BH his Sr year. BH ... redshirt 1st year ... learn the second, back up IV the 3rd and either back up IV, share or steal time from him the 4th, and start his Sr year. That would put us like this 2003-2004... TF start playing 30 min per game. IV backing up 2004-2005... Same as above ... but maybe BH gets a little time depending on his development. Hopefully IV will have developed enough to push his way on the court for minutes and push TF 2005-2006... IV starts ... BH competes for as much time as he can. Recruit another big man (TF's repacement) to start grooming to replace these 2 2006-2007... Same as above with BH pushing for more time. Recruit IV's replacement. 2007-2008... BH start with TF's replacement recruit backing up. Recruit BH's replacement. leaving TF's replacement to back up and get ready to start next year. I have no problem with that scenario. The problem is that TF cannot stay on the floor due to reasons obviously beyond his control, Asthma last year, concussions this year. I don't see how UB could have forseen this ... and with the state of players he was left with ... I think his thought process was correct ... recruit for the future rather than settle for mediocrity now. So far I think his plan is intact ... except for one thing ... If IV doesn't find some spark and desire ... BH maybe getting more minutes than expected next year, which is ok ... it will be DC's Jr year, DP and DB's soph year and KL and TL's freshman year. I think that will leave us still developing next year ... but looking very good the following year with DC as a Sr, DP and DB as Jr's and KL and TL as soph's. With IV as a Sr and BH as a Jr center. The missing link is the 4 ... we re still unsure about JJ and can't seem to recruit the guy we need for the position. Hopefully he is on his way here. There is still a chance we could be pretty good next year ... but we will have some if's. Can JJ take the steps to be who we think he can? or will we recruit a player who can step in to be a solid 4 right away. Can VN rebound an run the floor in transition Will IV find that fire or will BH take more minutes from him How much can TL and KL contribute as freshmen Will DB shoot 500 shots a game ... with a better outside shot he could end up looking very, very good. Will KL and TL push DC to be his best ... will he get enough time on the floor this year to be ready to be a solid player next year. We don't need all of the above to come true ... but we need some ... either JJ developing or a new 4. Either IV steps up or BH continues to improve and is able to take over. Either DC or DB can start at one guard or both or KL and/or TL play major quality minutes as freshman. I don't look for great success next year ... but could be surprised. I do however think 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 we will be very good and looking to reload. Success will continue to bring better recruits. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehms13 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 I've mentioned this from day one of posting on this board, I think SLU really limits themselves and their talents when they only recruit or look to recruit locally..It's a whole word beyond St. Louis, I actually think kids would love to come to SLU only because everyone doesn't get the opportunity to play for a Division 1 School.. This will become more evident when SLU moves to A-10, it's a guard oriented conference, u're playing more eastcoast teams..u will see that they are worlds apart from the midwest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Roy, as an aside, Gonzaga has redshirted every big man except Morrison in the last eight years. The extra year has really helped them develop their big men! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Brehms, I think Brad is recruiting for their planned entry into the A10. It is a whole lot easier getting a good handle on good guards with wheels, a handle, and a good shot than it is projecting how a big will develop out of high school. Superior guard play mixed with a good set of productive forwards gets us in the Big Dance in most years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 I don't know if that is a fair criticism Brehems. Take a look at the roster and home towns: Tom Frericks............ Bowling Green, Ky. Danny Brown............. Houston, Texas Darren Clarke........... Minnetonka, Minn. Ian Vouyoukas........... Athens, Greece Anthony Drejaj.......... West Orange, N.J. Reggie Bryant........... Baltimore, Md. Justin Johnson.......... Merrillville, Ind. Izik Ohanon............. Jerusalem, Israel Vas'Shun Newborne....... Natchez, Miss. Bryce Husak............. Mt. Vernon, Iowa Only Polk and Meyer are from the St. Louis area. Granted, the two announced recruits for next year are both from the St. Louis area (Lisch and Liddell) but they have national level ability. I'm more frustrated with the selection of skill sets in recruits than I am with the how wide Brad casts his net. Two projects at center recruited in the same class, Reggie has the only solid perimeter game on the entire team (huge problem for a team running a motion offense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Brehms, in SLU's last home game against SEMO, SLU's starting five came from Israel, Florida, New Jersey, Texas, and St. Louis. Not exactly a strong local flavor. As long as the recruit is a legitimate college student, a good citizen and a good player....I don't care where he comes from! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Okay...original post...well...on the college level U of I and KU are 1 and 2 nationally...for Midwest ball. But if your post is about high school players which I assume it is...well...let's take a look. Absolutely there are some great players in the Mid-Atlantic area...but remember some of those kids are originally from somewhere else. Chicago for example has some serious high level talent most years in hoops, very deep, and they often lose to the Peoria's in high school team ball. You are also talking about a radical difference in population. I would agree also ...who cares where kids come from as long as you win. Without the hoops tradition of a KU for example, it is tough for SLU to get elite kids period, but elite kids from far away too. Recruiting is tough tough business, very hard. If you are going to get a second tier recruit, sure it makes sense to have it be a local kid as opposed to from somehwere else....but SLU has not yet reached the point as a program where they can say, you are a marginal local player, not interested. Recruiting is tough as I said. ....I was reading the Chicago Tribune recently...and they did a story on a kid who is going to Marquette next year...the kid was not highly recruited the last two years when Marquette was all over him early, and now, picked as top 5 local player on number one team drawing wild Dwyane Wade like comparisons(which obviously is overboard etc...) but the point...like Wade, who was NOT highly recruited his first few years in high school, he went under the radar a little bit, and now everyone wants him. SLu needs a few of those. not an easy thing to do. I would agree that STL does not ahve D-1 depth of area talent, major d-1. But....that is okay, plenty of other areas to get kids from. Mizzou football coach got a commitment from top Texas QB...because the Texas schools were too busy with other kids in the fertile recruiting area there. SLU has a nice recruit for this year, and two for next year. Top 25 teams get great classes every year. Soderberg needs a good class after next year's to solidify the first one. Lastly, obviously you need athletes to win. But you can have a solid decent non-superior athlete, who is a "skilled" ball player, and win too. you need both to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Majerus Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 The 2 centers were not recruited in the same class - Bryce was a redshirt from day 1. At the time, it looked like we had a good handle on inside players going forward. We expected two full years from Tom. All the recruiting decisions are made without seeing the future. I get tired of the hindsight BS. You make your best decision, based on what you know at the time, and then you work with what you've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Exactly when do you look back to determine the value of your decisions? A 2-10 record means things have gone to the dogs. I'm not calling for Brads head or anything of the sort. I do think that one can question our softness at the 5 and expecially the 4 spot. Tom Frericks doing his Chris Miller impersonation is a disasterous development. It seems at this point we have nobody to replace his toughness and strength this year or next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehms13 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 ok... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 They were in the same recruiting class plain and simple; two large, slow, developmental centers. If you liked the call, fine, then support it. However, it is the nature of the beast for fans to question all coaching decisions. Get used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Majerus Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 You missed my point - did we know the future when we signed him? Go on record right now about how you feel about the KL and TL recruits. I think they are superb. What I readily admit is I don't know how the future will play out. How will I react if they are subject to Floyd McLain type physical problems? I will still say it was a job well done to get them to sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Majerus Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 There are times when no snide comment seems adequate - Catbert...I have a hard time with fair weather fans who whine when things aren't the way they want them to be. I continue to spend time on this board because there are enough high minded participants who engage in intelligent observation. They know who they are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Look back ... UB signed TF who he expected to be his starting center for 2 years ... giving IV and BH 2 years to develop and would give us 2 very nice sized centers for the following 2 years with BH having 1 year left past that. The problem isn't BH and IV it is that TF for reasons beyond anyones control can't give us 30 minutes per game. When you take over a program in the state UB took over the Bills depth is of course a problem. If we had only signed 1 of the 2 and had taken another Juco center we might be better off this year ... but not as strong for the next 3. What do you think UB's choices were in that class ... either big men who need time to develop or a 2nd Juco ... High School big men ready to compete right away were not coming to SLU at that time ... especially since most of them were being recruited since their sophmore year in HS by much bigger names than SLU. I don't know what would make anyone think UB could come in and recruit the 6'11" very talented HS center in the middle of his Jr year and out recruit people from bigger and better basketball schools that had been recruiting them since their freshman and sophmore years. That is unrealistic. IV has played less than 30% of his college games and has only had 1 offseason to develop. Hopefully he will realize that he needs to work harder than he did last offseason and come back next year much better than this year. He will also get plenty of time this year to continue to work as will BH now get more experience than expected. This bodes well for the future. Regarding BH if you have not been impressed with what he has done defensively in his little time on the floor ... especially considering he is a freshman ... I don't know what your expectations are besides unrealistic. I will agree he needs work on the offensive end ... but if you will look at how much he has improved in 1 year, you have to think he will work hard and get even better defensivly and make good improvement on the offensive end. I would bet he has put on 15-20 lbs since he has been here ...( Mr. Husak if you read this ... give us an idea of how much muscle and bulk Bryce has added in the last year and a half ) I am happy with the state of our centers ... In fact I would like to see UB sign another big man with potential to replace TF next year, we can redshirt him next year and he would be 2 years behind BH. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Majerus Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Intelligent response...JJ won't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I said it before ... and I will repeat it. Regardless of class BH played the best defensive center in the ORU game I have seen in 15 years of watching SLU basketball. He was a difference maker in that game ... he was credited with 3 blocked shots ... I think he had 5 and altered a few other shots. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 unca, i can guarantee you that if i had seen ian and bryce at this time in their senior years in high school i would have told you i dont like either and they wouldnt contribute immediately, but if you must, take one and only one. i can and will tell you that imo at this time in their senior seasons i will go out on the limb and say that both kevin lisch and tommie lidell will be the best two players on the team next year unless we really strike gold with these last two unused scholarships. there, i went on the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 If you take a look at the successful Saint Louis teams over the last thirty years, a common denominator in almost all the teams is that the players have been together from three to eight years of playing/development time. It takes time for players to gel, unless you have a few supremely talented individuals that can create a team in a week. Check out the successful historic programs in Illinois, and you will notice the dynasty programs come from Quincy, Centralia, Rock Island, Collinsville, Peoria, Pekin, and numerous other smaller towns. You have 75% of the talent in the Chicago area, but outside a few exceptional coaches up north, the majority of the player development occurs in small to medium sized towns where coaches realize that a developmental program, a good system, and disciplined high school ball are the keys to defeating (usually) more talented teams out of Chicago. If Brad strikes gold and gets another Larry Hughes caliber star, our fortunes can change overnight. However, he also must run his program on the other rail 95% of the time, which relies on player development, understanding a system, and filling the slots in the system with players of needed abilities. It takes three to four complete recruiting years to get such a system in place. BTW, here is a good center for Brad's system that I mentioned earlier, if I can get the thread tagged... Billy Cole from Peoria Richwoods. http://www.ilprepbullseye.com/page45.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 first, i thought bryce again showed better in the few minutes he played the other nite vs iowa. that said, he still isnt capable of playing long stretches and not putting us at a disadvantage. same with ian who is just two slow. but they have both shown improvement. i understand brad's plan as well, the fallacy in it was expecting the rest of the bigs to come through immediately and the fact is he didnt know what he had with the rest either. frericks was new with them, justin johnson had to be redshirted his first year, izik was thought to be a wing, the only sure thing you had at the time was a wing guard playing power forward and having some success sheerly on having some of the top guts in billiken history. and even he (sloan), was only going to be there another year. the point is, he took this risk without anything else to necessarily shoot. the bright spot is that it appears that justin johnson may yet fulfill some potential. and both ian and husak are indeed improving. but those two aspects arent going to help us much this year it appears. but when ian's a senior and bryce is a junior, i would expect the long wait to pay off. if it doesnt, man are we going to take hell from the non billiken fandom then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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