billiken_roy Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 skip, get serious. blocked shots isnt all there is about playing defense. the best defensive game by a billiken center in 15 years? do you forget some of the nights kenny brown had shutting down some of the best cusa bigs in the conference? kenny brown's bad nights exceeded anything that bryce husak has shown todate. now if you want to say something like "that was the most shots altered in a billiken game since melvin robinson", i wouldnt fight that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUMS81 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Is there a reason why we never seem to recruit players from rural Missouri? Other than Corey Frazier, I can't recall many players in recent years that SLU has seriously recruited or signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 jeremy biles and carlos mccauley were also from rural missouri. however you are correct that since then, we have ignored the outer schools. i liked that mike smith kid at the shootout that is a junior from van-far. imo, he should be looked at closely for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 You are right I should ammend my statement ... I didn't even think of KB ... how easily one forgets. I think KB had numerous games better than those 19 minutes from BH ... Also ... I should say that he only played 19 minutes ... so that wouldn't compare to a full game, but he did more than alter shots ... he shut down the inside game when he was in. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I believe the two most recent rural Missouri recruits were Chris Sloan from St. Charles and Luke Meyer from Wasington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 cole is only a sophomore. my guess is that if he continues to develop, he will be long gone to the the traditional big time programs. i wish we had a peoria pipeline, but tell me what peoria player has ever played for saint louis university? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Frazier, McCauley and Biles were all from the same High School also Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 There's no way that anyone can consider St. Charles to be rural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahok Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I have been disapointed for the last several years with our recruiting. Because I have not seen recruiting that will give a team an identity. We recruit big men that are suited for a slower game, and now we are recruiting guards for an uptempo game. We have to decide what type of team we are going to be then fill in the talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Almost all young big men are suited for a slower game, and they almost always need time to develop The 6'10" or bigger players that can run the floor are not coming here at this point in time. The only one would that might would be a local kid and we haven't had any. What you need is a big man who can dominate the middle and the boards and has the presence to get the ball out quickly. Quick guards who can push the ball up the floor, pass the ball, shoot the 3, and create turnovers. Lastly, you need 3's and 4's who can fill the lanes with authority. We have 2 young big men who hopefully can dominate the boards in the future, they certainly have the size. We have a super quick point guard in DP. We have KL who can handle the ball and shoots very well along with the ability to get to the hole coming. We have TL who is a slasher with pg skills and great speed and athleticism coming. We have some other players in LM and DC who fill can fill roles as needed. We have JJ who has shown glimpses of what he can be. We have VN who looks as if his game might be better suited to an uptempo game. What we need is the 4 who can bang and run the floor. Most of the key components to our team will be freshmen and sophs, next year ... so will may still be developing, but if we can find that 4 ... we should be ready to make some real noise the year after that. We need Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Roy, recruiting is all about connections. If you take a look at our current roster, more than 60% of the players were steered to us, either by former players/asst. coaches of Brad's, or good friends. I'm hoping Thorpe and Beane are keeping in touch with all our former players now coaching in the Illinois/Missouri HS ranks. Keep in mind, we got H Waldman as a gift from UNLV cause the Tark thought he could do well under Spoon, as Spoon was a good bud of many in LV ten years before he "retired." In Peoria, Buechler at Peoria Central loved Bobby Knight, so all his players were fed the "Indiana is great" line from Day one. Hammerton at Richwoods was quite happy with Lou Henson at Illinois, while Manual players had a stretch of going to DePaul. It only takes one player to have a good experience to get a pipeline established. We never had a good run with getting Peoria players, missing on Alvin O'Neal(Peoria Spaulding)in '69/'70 under Polk, and more recently with Marcus Sommerville, now starring at Bradley, under Lorenzo. The two players that blew up in Peoria their junior/senior seasons that would be outstanding for us were Faulkner(the 6'7" PF that played with Livingston at Richwoods,) and the SF out of Limestone that singlehandedly almost beat Central w Livingston all three games they played two years ago. Unfortunately, both these players had to go the juco route. Cole will be the first significant center to come out of Peoria in thirty years, following Derek Holcomb out of Richwoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 That's a long repy. Let's work on what I think was your main point: >> Look back ... UB signed TF who he expected to be his starting center for 2 years ... giving IV and BH 2 years to develop and would give us 2 very nice sized centers for the following 2 years with BH having 1 year left past that. The problem isn't BH and IV it is that TF for reasons beyond anyones control can't give us 30 minutes per game. When you take over a program in the state UB took over the Bills depth is of course a problem. If we had only signed 1 of the 2 and had taken another Juco center we might be better off this year ... but not as strong for the next 3. What do you think UB's choices were in that class ..<< My problem with the way the team is structured goes beyond BH and IV in the same recruiting class. I'll engage you there but it is just one point in a larger problem--we lack scorers. The team is built for defenders in the back court and big, tall bodies in the front court. That's great but we have to be able to score as well. The offense runs all these high screens designed to create middle to long range jumpers ... but who can consistently knock those down? It's a skill set we have under-recruited IMHO. As to BH and IV, yes, the team needs 2 centers and by utilizing a red-shirt Brad gets BH and IV in different years. I'm fine with having an IV or BH on the team. They are very serviceable backup centers; however, I was not keen on 2 of them. When a team has needs in many areas it seemed odd to get a spare part of the exact same type you already had covered. I don't begrudge anyone the right to stand on the soap box and declare praises for the coaching decision to sign these two players in the same recruiting class, however, isn't it quite obvious that we need more athleticism on our front line? Izik is the most athletic big on the team and he is leaving this year. JJ is next in line and god only knows whether or if he shall contribute to the team next year. As to going on the record, I believe Lisch and Liddell shall be fine next year; however, I have serious concerns about how our team shall fare. These two may be do fine for freshman D1 players but we are counting on them to our 1-2 scorers. Our 2 highest scorers are leaving--Izik and Reggie. Can Lisch turn into Reggie? It's alot to ask of a freshman to come in and be the main scoring threat. Liddell is more of a passer, athlete than scorer. Can he change his mentality to be a scorer? I don't know. Will Brad let Polk, Lisch, and Liddell run? Will JJ apply himself, get out of Brad's dog house, and be the starting PF? We need him desperately. Why must some take it so personal when the obvious is stated--our team has serious deficiencies in it's current makeup? It's plain to see but maybe the whole point is cheerleading with no criticism allowed. Sorry, I didn't get the memo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 First of all why so defensive ... never did I knock you for having a different opinion. I just stated mine in response to your post about the fact we signed 2 big centers in the same class. You are right ... we lack scorers. We were left so short that we were reaching to fill voids. The problem is that we didn't establish depth. BH was recruited for the future, I think we expected a little more from IV at this point, but I think it is still there to come. The reason we lack scoring though is a seperate problem. The people that should be scoring are AD ... he should be able to back up Reggie and score some points, he can't on a consistent basis. VN ... I think we thought he could give us 8-10 ppg and 6-7 rpg, hasn't shown the ability to do either. DC ... He was billed as a scorer and in the middle of his sophmore season he can't get playing time on a team that can't score. JJ ... Clearly has the physical tools ... for whatever reason he has yet to put it all together in the middle of his sophmore season after a redshirt year. With a program left with as many holes to fill as UB was ... I think we had to hope for a healthy squad ... we should have known injuries would be hard to overcome. If we had played this year with a healthy TF and a completely healthy RB ... we would have a different record this year and we wouldn't be so glum. I am not any happier with our record and performance this year than you are ... but I realize the difficulties in recruiting and that it takes time. We have help coming ... and you are probably right that expecting KL and TL to be stars as freshmen is probably a pipe dream. I have stated for a while that I think our next NCAA appearance will be the TL and KL's sophmore year. Yes ... I was drinking the Blue Kool Aid before the season started ... but that was silly ... for us to have a good year to many things all had to go right. If they had we would be a good team now ... but it seems most of the things we needed to come through ... did not. DP ... 20% from beyond the arc, no way did I expect that. VN ... I watched him in practice ... I thought he was 10ppg 6rb's. IO ... one of the few people who have exceeded expectations. RB ... Bum ankle ... has hurt him ... we needed more AD ... no improvement whatsoever ... shot seems worse DC ... has not progressed or if he has we haven't got to see it. JJ ... a few moments but all in all still not what he could be TF ... I thought we would get 10ppg and 7rpg ... can't help injuries. IV ... still not agressive ... I was expecting a solid 10 min BH ... better than I expected ... I expected basically nothing. LM ... about what was expected DB ... better than expected ... IMO our problems this year are injuries to arguably the 2 people we needed to come through the most TF and RB. VN has made almost no contribution. AD seems to have regressed and DP can't or won't penetrate and has shot horribly from the 3. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 jj, if you are only seeing high screens, you need to take a complete view of the offense. jj, you state that we "under-recruited perimeter players who could knock down middle to long-range(?)jumpers". I believe DC, LM, DB, and DP were all shooters/scorers when recruited in high school / prep school. Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Majerus Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 What a big chance your are taking... I agree; I also know you can't play 5 guards at once in spite of Brad's and Spoonhour's preferences. I also recall you're talking about the big's being projects at the time of signing...but that comes with the territory unless you are very lucky. I think the final judgement comes after their last 2 years, and it's hard to recruit on the unknown. In retrospect, the Frericks signup has proven to be a disappointment...but it looked good at the time. It's too soon to pass final judgement on Ian and Bryce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 ok, here is another limb risk. as much as i have ripped ian and bryce and as much as i have said in the past i wish we wouldnt have taken both, i believe at least one if not both will end up being very good/effective. coach soderberg is far too good of a basketball man to miss on both. and i have faith that he read the situation right long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 but if we hadn't taken both ... we would be short on depth going into next year ... unless you prefer we always keep a Juco center, fact is if we would get a different freshman center ... he still would take time to develop and you probably wouldn't think any different than you think about IV and BH. Name all the 6'10" or bigger true freshmen who made an impact ...over the last 5 or 6 years. There aren't many, there aren't even many as sophs. The chances of us landing that guy unless he is local is slim. UB wasn't going to take a chance that he knows probably wasn't happening, so he made sure we had guys in the system that he thought at the time would be good and we started developing them, you just don't see results until 2 or 3 years later. If we hadn't taken them ... where would we be for next year and the next two. We would be worried that we didn't have anyone ready to go and would be looking for someone now. Fact is even if only one works out to be real good ... you still need a back up ... the other will be good enough to give you 10 to 15 minutes a game. We are set over the next 2-3 years at center ... because UB did recruit them both Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Don't you think of UB could have landed another big guy besides TF he would have ... But if the other guy was a freshman ... he wouldn't be any more ready than IV or BH ... Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 skip said, "Name all the 6'10" or bigger true freshmen who made an impact ...over the last 5 or 6 years." and it is a necessity to have someone 6'10" or bigger for why? as you detail, not many teams have one and even far less have one that is effective. the best inside tandem in cusa will be cincy this year and hicks and maxiell are both probably 6'5" 6'6" at the most. i will take strong effective athletes over just sheer size any day. however, if they develop, you are very correct in pinpointing what an advantage they will be. as i said above, i am betting at least one if not both pans out. brad is far too smart to have risked 4 seasons of 2 scholarships each imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 The SLU coaching staff expected, as did I, that VN would duplicate Sloan's junior and senior season production over his Billiken career. For whatever reason, it hasn't happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTGR Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 It's kind of funny that for the most part SLU fans seem to be antagonistic to rural Missouri and then wonder why you don't recruit many kids from rural Missouri? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 tseugnekillib said, "The SLU coaching staff expected, as did I, that VN would duplicate Sloan's junior and senior season production over his Billiken career. For whatever reason, it hasn't happened!" really. that surprises me that you say that. after watching newborne in just a couple of practices, i never envisioned him as a sloan replacement. sloan was undersized as it was at pf, but he was bigger than newborne and a better athlete as well. what hope i had for newborne was as a bigger sf than we have had for quite awhile. i felt he could adequately fill in for small minutes at pf, but not a full replacement. i felt he would be a good rebounding and scorer at the 3 spot. however, brad has shown again he would rather have a third guard than more of a 2 forward in that spot. i just dont think newborne can play the pf spot unless we are facing a team that is also very small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 >jj, if you are only seeing high screens, you need to take a >complete view of the offense. I'm sure you've seen the team more than me but high screens appears to be a staple of the half-court set ("all" is too strong, agreed). >jj, you state that we "under-recruited perimeter players who >could knock down middle to long-range(?)jumpers". I believe >DC, LM, DB, and DP were all shooters/scorers when recruited >in high school / prep school. Is that correct? Your point being that regardless of how these players have performed at SLU they were shooters in HS? You might have a point there but I still think it is debateable. Luke Meyer was never an outside set shooter as I understood his game (only saw him once in HS so will defer to those with greater knowledge). I saw him more as a guy with a move into the lane who would stop and pop. Luke's game was mid-range, not perimeter. Darren ... he was supposed to be shooter but never saw him or his stats from HS (he played PG his senior year in HS). Danny Brown ... has shown a good shot at times but I believe he was recruited as an athletic big guard, not as a shooter. Don't think that was what he was known for at AF prep. Polk's game is running, pressing, distributing. Can he shoot from the outside? Yes to a degree but in college it's a greater challenge to shoot over the guards at D1. Polk was not brought in as a shooter. Other than Reggie, who did we recruit who was known as a perimeter shooter? If we are going to be a half-court offensive team (which the last comments from Brad on the subject indicate he would stay the course on that front) and we have no real back-to-the-basket inside scoring threat, then we need players who stretch the defense from the perimeter. The good teamd have multiple threats from long-range. Clarification: to comment upon a problem does not mean I'm calling for the coach's head. Brad has done plenty with the cards dealt to him. However, IMHO to improve the team we need to honestly look at the deficiencies and do our best to correct them. Pointing fingers to determine whose fault it is we got in this mess rarely solves the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 but when we were recruiting 6'6" power forwards most people were against that because of their size. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 not me, i wanted matt shaw badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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