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10 minutes ago, NH said:

I am not saying  that there is no such thing as good help side defense. I think help side defense is important. But their incentive should be to make a basketball play such as contesting the shot or trying to strip the ball. If the offensive player is out of control, or goes out of his way to create contact, I think it should be an offensive foul. However, I don’t think the help side Cody Ellis charge, which does not reward skill or athleticism and is also somewhat dangerous, should be considered a good defensive play. 

So you're saying getting in a good position to stop the forward progress of the offensive player is not a good play? I'm confused seriously. Reaching in to strip the ball isn't generally needed if you're in good defensive position and probably results in a foul more often than it results in a clean strip. It's not a good basketball play it's a play usually necessitated by being out of position. 

I don't like the Cody Ellis flop either but that's not good help side D or even good D, it's a flop allowed by poor officiating. 

The play everyone is talking about where Has gets the offensive foul and the guy is in the semi circle. That's a flop and should have been a no call. Has didn't really lower and lead with his shoulder he turned and made contact, but not hard contact and officials at this level should be able to see that

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58 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

So you're saying getting in a good position to stop the forward progress of the offensive player is not a good play? I'm confused seriously. Reaching in to strip the ball isn't generally needed if you're in good defensive position and probably results in a foul more often than it results in a clean strip. It's not a good basketball play it's a play usually necessitated by being out of position. 

I don't like the Cody Ellis flop either but that's not good help side D or even good D, it's a flop allowed by poor officiating. 

The play everyone is talking about where Has gets the offensive foul and the guy is in the semi circle. That's a flop and should have been a no call. Has didn't really lower and lead with his shoulder he turned and made contact, but not hard contact and officials at this level should be able to see that

I think you should be expected to make a play on the ball if you are the defender. Whether that is contesting the shot, or trying to strip the ball, I think the fundamental goal on defense should be to make a skill/athletic movement. The goal of good positioning should be to put yourself in a good position to play defense. As it is currently refereed the only goal of most players taking a charge is to put themselves in a position to draw contact. They have no intention of making a basketball play.

And like I said, I don't think they should eliminate offensive fouls. Push-offs, initiating contact, kicking your legs on a 3, etc. are all things that give the player an unfair advantage and should be called as an offensive foul. 

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57 minutes ago, NH said:

I think you should be expected to make a play on the ball if you are the defender. Whether that is contesting the shot, or trying to strip the ball, I think the fundamental goal on defense should be to make a skill/athletic movement. The goal of good positioning should be to put yourself in a good position to play defense. As it is currently refereed the only goal of most players taking a charge is to put themselves in a position to draw contact. They have no intention of making a basketball play.

And like I said, I don't think they should eliminate offensive fouls. Push-offs, initiating contact, kicking your legs on a 3, etc. are all things that give the player an unfair advantage and should be called as an offensive foul. 

This literally makes no sense. Stopping a drive is good defense. So exactly when do you and don’t you have to make a play on the ball when defending someone. When you first arrive in front of an offensive player must you immediately try to strip the ball or make a steal? Do you only have to do it once?

I agree with you on how that play is currently officiated. Even as the rule is written an offensive player moving with any pace has little to no chance of not charging. A defender is allowed to establish position too late for the offensive player to adjust. But your statement that you have to be trying to steal the ball or block the shot goes against every principle of sound defense. Move your feet, stay balanced and between your opponent and the basket. The defender should simply have to establish a legal guarding position earlier. Problem solved

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6 hours ago, Pistol said:

The other frustrating part of last night's game is that the refs bit on VCU's flops every time. Some were actually warranted, but not nearly all of those. And like I said earlier in this thread, VCU clearly works on that. They had a willing buyer for what they were selling and we paid for it.

Vince Williams deserves an Oscar. I mean, he did get fouled, but come on. He's given Oscar-worthy performances almost every game, going back to high school, and the refs bite every time. Pretty much all the fouls are deserved when viewed on replay, but that kid SELLS them. If there was a national All-Glue team, he'd be a starter. 

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6 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

This literally makes no sense. Stopping a drive is good defense. So exactly when do you and don’t you have to make a play on the ball when defending someone. When you first arrive in front of an offensive player must you immediately try to strip the ball or make a steal? Do you only have to do it once?

I agree with you on how that play is currently officiated. Even as the rule is written an offensive player moving with any pace has little to no chance of not charging. A defender is allowed to establish position too late for the offensive player to adjust. But your statement that you have to be trying to steal the ball or block the shot goes against every principle of sound defense. Move your feet, stay balanced and between your opponent and the basket. The defender should simply have to establish a legal guarding position earlier. Problem solved

Let me try asking a different way: What other foul in the sport do they call where the goal is simply to draw a foul? 

If you are a help-side defender and you slide over with the express goal of drawing contact, and no intention of interfering with any shot/dribble/pass or other basketball play, I do not believe that is good defense. I do think that you should have a right to that space, and that you should be able to maintain your verticality in the help-side position without it being called a defensive foul. You say my point goes against every principle of sound defense, but I have never heard a coach in any position use the defensive principles "do not move your feet" or "keep your hands at your side" other than when taking a charge. 

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7 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

all the more reason we should be playing our bench more.   instead it seems the rotation has been tightened.

I agree. This team's depth was outstanding first half of the year, now we're not seeing it so much. It's those final three critical minutes when everyone is gassed that decide games...if we have the depth, use it, that way the starters are fresher at the end. The only variable here is we don't know who was affected by COVID the most, that could affect PT. Plus we got banged up there, would love to see more Jacobs, but it is what it is. 

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1 hour ago, NH said:

Let me try asking a different way: What other foul in the sport do they call where the goal is simply to draw a foul? 

If you are a help-side defender and you slide over with the express goal of drawing contact, and no intention of interfering with any shot/dribble/pass or other basketball play, I do not believe that is good defense. I do think that you should have a right to that space, and that you should be able to maintain your verticality in the help-side position without it being called a defensive foul. You say my point goes against every principle of sound defense, but I have never heard a coach in any position use the defensive principles "do not move your feet" or "keep your hands at your side" other than when taking a charge. 

Why would you move your feet if a player is coming straight at you? No coach will tell you to continue to move your feet if you’re already in the correct spot and continued movement would put you in a less advantageous position. I’ve never heard a coach nor do you have to keep your hands at your side. You’re simply establishing a position to prevent the offensive player from having a free drive to the basket. 
 

How would you make a rule that says in this instance you aren’t allowed to establish good defensive position. What if you were set 1 foot inside the f/t line you’re not moving, you’re not trying to steal the ball, or block a shot, the guy your guarding just runs through you. Is that a charge? You weren’t trying to make a basketball play as you call it. No real athleticism involved. You’re simply trying to impede his path to the basket.

Like I said the problem isn’t the play, or the defender, the problem is how late he’s allowed to arrive and establish that position. You’d ( I assume ) have no issue if the defender did the same thing but arrived in position 3 steps before contact. Would that be a charge? Why? The defender wasn’t doing anything athletic or attempting what you call a basketball play? 

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6 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Why would you move your feet if a player is coming straight at you? No coach will tell you to continue to move your feet if you’re already in the correct spot and continued movement would put you in a less advantageous position. I’ve never heard a coach nor do you have to keep your hands at your side. You’re simply establishing a position to prevent the offensive player from having a free drive to the basket. 
 

How would you make a rule that says in this instance you aren’t allowed to establish good defensive position. What if you were set 1 foot inside the f/t line you’re not moving, you’re not trying to steal the ball, or block a shot, the guy your guarding just runs through you. Is that a charge? You weren’t trying to make a basketball play as you call it. No real athleticism involved. You’re simply trying to impede his path to the basket.

Like I said the problem isn’t the play, or the defender, the problem is how late he’s allowed to arrive and establish that position. You’d ( I assume ) have no issue if the defender did the same thing but arrived in position 3 steps before contact. Would that be a charge? Why? The defender wasn’t doing anything athletic or attempting what you call a basketball play? 

I agree the main problem is how a player is allowed to arrive and establish defensive position. Because the play is so bang-bang, it is nearly impossible for a ref to determine whether a player has arrived in time to take a charge. Because it is so difficult to determine, we end up with lots of situations in which a helpside defender is sliding in front of an opposing player before they have time to change their direction, and the resulting contact is called a charge. In order to draw the charge, the helpside defensive player is going out of their way to be in a position in which they are knocked to the ground. You have basically said all this already and I am agreeing.

I don't have a problem with charges when a guy is guarding the ballhandler because they're actively trying to defend against a shot or pass and the ref can more easily establish whether they are in a legal guarding position. I would propose they take out the judgement call of whether a helpside defender has established that same type position. If you establish position to contest a shot and the player barrels into you, that's an offensive foul. If you go up to block a shot and the player jumps into you in a way that compromises your ability to stay in your position, that's an offensive foul. But if you got rid of the instance where helpside defenders were sliding into the path of a driving player to simply "take a charge", it would get rid of the grey area for the referee and cause far fewer of those instances where guys are going to the ground unnecessarily. 

Do you agree with having a charge circle like they do currently? Basically what I am saying is that they should expand this circle even further out (and the charges I'm talking about only happen when a player is going to the rim). It wouldn't change whether or not you can beat the man you're guarding to the spot, and it wouldn't change whether a helpside defender can try to prevent a layup. But the way the rule is meant to work and the way it does work in practice do not match up, and this is what results in so many of those Cody Ellis flop charges that I would like to get rid of.  

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15 minutes ago, NH said:

I agree the main problem is how a player is allowed to arrive and establish defensive position. Because the play is so bang-bang, it is nearly impossible for a ref to determine whether a player has arrived in time to take a charge. Because it is so difficult to determine, we end up with lots of situations in which a helpside defender is sliding in front of an opposing player before they have time to change their direction, and the resulting contact is called a charge. In order to draw the charge, the helpside defensive player is going out of their way to be in a position in which they are knocked to the ground. You have basically said all this already and I am agreeing.

I don't have a problem with charges when a guy is guarding the ballhandler because they're actively trying to defend against a shot or pass and the ref can more easily establish whether they are in a legal guarding position. I would propose they take out the judgement call of whether a helpside defender has established that same type position. If you establish position to contest a shot and the player barrels into you, that's an offensive foul. If you go up to block a shot and the player jumps into you in a way that compromises your ability to stay in your position, that's an offensive foul. But if you got rid of the instance where helpside defenders were sliding into the path of a driving player to simply "take a charge", it would get rid of the grey area for the referee and cause far fewer of those instances where guys are going to the ground unnecessarily. 

Do you agree with having a charge circle like they do currently? Basically what I am saying is that they should expand this circle even further out (and the charges I'm talking about only happen when a player is going to the rim). It wouldn't change whether or not you can beat the man you're guarding to the spot, and it wouldn't change whether a helpside defender can try to prevent a layup. But the way the rule is meant to work and the way it does work in practice do not match up, and this is what results in so many of those Cody Ellis flop charges that I would like to get rid of.  

Now you're putting the official into the position of determining whether or not a player established position simply to take a charge. 

Player A beats his defender in the corner you slide over to just below the low block. You are now help defense.  You get there 3 steps before the offensive player would get there. You're not trying to prevent a lay up, you're not guarding the ball.. You're goal is simply to impede his progress to the rim and to yes take the charge if he keeps coming.  The coach isn't going to tell you to move your feet, you're already in the correct position. The offensive player had time and room to go around you but he doesn't he goes through you. All your doing now is standing there and taking the charge. Should the defender have to move and then contest the layup? Or can he just stand there and take the charge? 

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2 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Now you're putting the official into the position of determining whether or not a player established position simply to take a charge. 

Player A beats his defender in the corner you slide over to just below the low block. You are now help defense.  You get there 3 steps before the offensive player would get there. You're not trying to prevent a lay up, you're not guarding the ball.. You're goal is simply to impede his progress to the rim and to yes take the charge if he keeps coming.  The coach isn't going to tell you to move your feet, you're already in the correct position. The offensive player had time and room to go around you but he doesn't he goes through you. All your doing now is standing there and taking the charge. Should the defender have to move and then contest the layup? Or can he just stand there and take the charge? 

That decision of whether a player is making a basketball play would be a much easier decision than the current grey area officials have to navigate when it comes to the charge/block rule. And the instance you described where the player is not in the act of shooting and still runs into the helpside defender almost never occurs. In almost all instances, a helpside defender is sliding over at the last second and forcing a collision and bang-bang call.

There would still be helpside defense, but rather than forcing a turnover by intentionally falling backwards, you would use your basketball ability to contest at the rim, which is basically the way the rest of the game already works.   

Put it this way, if under the current system officials were able to effectively gauge whether a defender was truly in a legal guarding position before the offensive player had started his upward movement, and if officials were able to effectively gauge whether there was true contact or whether it was a flop, I would be fine with keeping the rule. But neither of those things are true and there is no reason to expect them to get better. So I say either change the rule or move the charge circle out even farther so that we can get rid of those bang-bang collisions at the rim. 

   

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8 hours ago, NH said:

That decision of whether a player is making a basketball play would be a much easier decision than the current grey area officials have to navigate when it comes to the charge/block rule. And the instance you described where the player is not in the act of shooting and still runs into the helpside defender almost never occurs. In almost all instances, a helpside defender is sliding over at the last second and forcing a collision and bang-bang call.

There would still be helpside defense, but rather than forcing a turnover by intentionally falling backwards, you would use your basketball ability to contest at the rim, which is basically the way the rest of the game already works.   

Put it this way, if under the current system officials were able to effectively gauge whether a defender was truly in a legal guarding position before the offensive player had started his upward movement, and if officials were able to effectively gauge whether there was true contact or whether it was a flop, I would be fine with keeping the rule. But neither of those things are true and there is no reason to expect them to get better. So I say either change the rule or move the charge circle out even farther so that we can get rid of those bang-bang collisions at the rim. 

   

And in my scenario above what if he was shooting? I have the defender just inside the low block it's not too far for a player to be beginning his last jump or push off for a layup or dunk. Must the defender who's been established there for 2 plus steps contest the shot to get the charge call? 

You can keep putting it any way you want, I'm not misunderstanding your idea. I'm disagreeing.  My initial thought was and has been to just require the defender to get there earlier. It was changed from when the player left the ground to when the player began his upward movement. I suggest the change wasn't big enough. It prevents what you don't like and would make the call easier for the officials, plus give the offensive player time and room to adjust. And yes charges occur before the player is in the act of shooting on a drive. 

Stopping forward motion by establishing position between the player with the ball and the basket is a fundamental principle of good defense

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On 2/23/2021 at 7:31 PM, wgstl said:

I will ask the billken board, why is no one talking about Jacobs since the break?

To me, he's one of the reason we've struggled. 

sprained his against Rhode Island near the end of the game when he went in for a dunk.  Made the two free throws and then came out,  seemed bother by it the rest of the game on the sidelines.  If I recall correctly he was hampered by an ankle injury previously years to and it really impacted his play.  I thought in the first half of the VCU games he had one drive and layup,  then go body slammed going in for another layup.  It seemed like an awkward foul, contact made to his body did not seem to be a play on the ball. I do not know if that impacted him the rest of the way.  

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34 minutes ago, Basketbill said:

sprained his against Rhode Island near the end of the game when he went in for a dunk.  Made the two free throws and then came out,  seemed bother by it the rest of the game on the sidelines.  If I recall correctly he was hampered by an ankle injury previously years to and it really impacted his play.  I thought in the first half of the VCU games he had one drive and layup,  then go body slammed going in for another layup.  It seemed like an awkward foul, contact made to his body did not seem to be a play on the ball. I do not know if that impacted him the rest of the way.  

Because it’s easier and apparently more fun to  sit on the sidelines and speculate. Our coach is a bad in game game coach, he may leave, his house wasnon the market, players may transfer, players will be unhappy, how long will good players will sit on the bench, playing eight does not work, playing 10 does not work so playing even more will work.  Some topics and players are off limits and others are free to be trashed. And note: no one has suggested who sits - just who should play. And is Jacob‘s really injured or is he still suffering from Covid?  Now if you’re referring to Jacob‘s injuries as a freshman, I suggest that they prevented him from learning how to play college basketball  - far different from today.  He now knows how to play college basketball, he has played well in the past, and yes, something is preventing him from having success now.

Maybe our head coach does know more than the rest of us. As I have said all along,, our roster is full of guys who are very good and talented but who are excellent at this but not very good at that. And yet when their weaknesses are exposed, whether due to good scouting/play of our opponents, Covid sickness or injury, there is no recognition of them and their limitations towards their struggles, blame has to go elsewhere. As to further details,  maybe after the season. We have a Tourney to win now. 

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1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

You can keep putting it any way you want, I'm not misunderstanding your idea. I'm disagreeing.  My initial thought was and has been to just require the defender to get there earlier. It was changed from when the player left the ground to when the player began his upward movement. I suggest the change wasn't big enough. It prevents what you don't like and would make the call easier for the officials, plus give the offensive player time and room to adjust. And yes charges occur before the player is in the act of shooting on a drive. 

Haha fair enough I'm happy to agree to disagree. But you indicated several times that I wasn't making any sense so you'll have to forgive me for trying my best to clarify.  

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clock, of course our head coach knows more than us.   he better for the millions he is getting paid.   that doesnt necessarily equate to he is up to the level needed to succeed bigtime at saint louis university that he is a better college coach than billiken roy.   my coaching experience is a couple of select grade school girls teams almost 20 years ago.   probably why i dont make ford money.   but i can still question what i see with my own lying eyes.   i'm a fan.   a rabid fan.

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41 minutes ago, NH said:

Haha fair enough I'm happy to agree to disagree. But you indicated several times that I wasn't making any sense so you'll have to forgive me for trying my best to clarify.  

It's all good and my bad. You were making sense, what you propose IMO isn't a practical solution and doesn't make sense. 

Either way I don't believe there is any thought to change it regardless of how inconsistently it's called. 

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