Rate the Bills in athleticism, skill, and intangibles

[Quality Is Job 1]

(I'm reposting this in a new thread at skip's request.)

I've gone through and rated the current Billikens in three categories.

I would say that athletic ability describes things like speed, quickness, agility, hand-eye coordination, balance, and (maybe) strength. Some of these attributes can be improved somewhat, but mostly they are God-given.

Skill describes things that are generally within a person's control -- things he or she learns or acquires the ability to do. In basketball, skills include things like shooting, dribbling, passing, screening, cutting, moving without the ball, court awareness, rebounding, and positioning on defense. (Neither list is complete, I'm sure.)

I would define "intangibles" as things like coachability, attitude, and hustle, etc.

Please note that all of these ratings are debatable, and everyone is invited to make their own ratings. Use the code {pre} and {/pre} (replacing the curly brackets with square brackets) to sandwich your text (copy and paste my formatted text and replace the numbers)

5 - Elite

4 - Above average

3 - Average

2 - Below average

1 - Ugh!

I first list the current players; then I list my assessment of the current team, overall. Then I list some former Bills for reference. Feel free to add your assessments for others, if you desire. There are a total of 12 spaces for the player's name and formatting spaces, if you care about it lining up.

[pre]

Player Athleticism Skill Intangibles

Bryant 4 4 3

Ohanon 4 3 2

Frericks 3 4 5

Drejaj 2 3 5

Newborne ? ? ?

Johnson 4 3 1

Clarke 3 3 ?

Vouyoukas 2 4 ?

Husak 3 ? ?

Polk 5 4 3

Meyer 3 ? ?

Brown ? ? ?

Overall 3 4 4

Fisher 4 4 5

Sloan 3 3 4

Varner 2 4 3

Perry 5 3 3

Hughes 5 4 3

Claggett 3 5 4

Highmark 2 4 5

Bonner 3 5 5

[/pre]

I reserve the right to tweak these numbers as I think about them. Let the debate begin.

[billiken_roy]

as i had said below, very interesting chart. and for the most part i agree with your assessments. however i would upgrade your "intangible" ratings for perry, hughes and sloan.

maybe on perry and hughes you skip over that aspect of their games because they were so darn talented. but both made stuff happen. they stepped up when they needed to regardless of which end of the floor they were on.

as to sloan, he was all about the intangibles. late game steals and scores, willing to do about anything to win. hell imo sloan is the walking definition of "intangibles".

[3star_recruit]

I evaluate players based on shooting, ballhandling, athleticism and defense, with the most weight given to shooting and defense. So for me, Lisch grades out higher than anybody we have on the squad. I also have a pretty high opinion of Clarke based on the praise Brad gave to his shooting and defense when he signed - he just needs to play.

[aj_arete]

Hope we get high participation and not just from Slufanskip, Billiken Roy and Thicks.

(Athleticism/Skill/Intangibles)

Bryant - 4/4/3

Drejaj - 3/3/4

Ohannon - 2/4/3

Frericks - 2/2/5

Johnson - 3/2/2

Vouyoukas - 2/3+/2

I ranked Bryant and Ohannon's skill levels the highest of rhte returning players. For one, Bryant's shooting mechanics are tremendous. I really think his dribble penetration last year was very underrated. Since he was the go-to guy, I can't really talk about his court vision and passing ability. However, overall, I rank him highest in skill for SLU. Ohannon is awkward, slow and weak, but I like his array of post moves, decent dribbling ability for a big man, and decent shooting mechanics. I'd rank him next in skill. As for Frericks, Billiken Roy made a good point about his hands. However, I just didn't see much variety in his game other than taking it hard to the basket. I would speculate that if you asked him or Brad, that they would say he wasn't blessed with much innate talent, but he makes up for it with passion and hard work. Vouyoukas doesn't appear all that coordinated to me, but he seems to have some decent post moves and might be a decent shooter down the road. If Vouyoukas' bulks up this year, I'll upgrade his intangible rating.

3-Star makes a good point about rating defensive ability as a skill. If so, I'd have to say that would upgrade the skill ranking for most players. As for Frericks, he appeared to foul a lot, so I don't know if he possessed good enough footwork to get an upgrade in skill here. However, let's hear from others.

[slufanskip]

Thanks !!

My ratings ... I will only post the differences

Clark ... I would give a 4 in athleticism

Polk ... My guess would be a 4 in intangibles

Marque ... 5 in intangibles

Fisher ... 3 in skill

Varner ... 3 in skill

Mostly I agree with thicks ... Meyer I have only seen once based on that I would give him a 2 for athleticism ... and based on his results in HS 4 for skill and I would suspect he will be very high on the intangibles list.

Great thread Thicks ...

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[aj_arete]

I'd have to disagree with your athleticism rating for Ohannon. As for Fisher, I agree with your athleticism rating, but disagree the rating for skill, unless we're placing a huge emphasis on defensive ability. While a solid ball handler, he didn't stand out to me in regards to dribble penetration or with his shooting skills. As for court vision and passing ability, I'll admit he had decent numbers, but I don't think he was standout in that area. With Varner, I'm astounded by the 4 rating in skill for him. Varner had good shooting mechanics, but he was limited in ball handling, dribble penetration, and working in the paint. As for defensive ability, I didn't see the footwork that would enable him to guard wings effectively and he didn't have the bulk to match up well with the bigs inside. I think that was a big miss. He's more like a 2 or 1 in skill, but I'd rank him as a 5+ in intangibles. As for Claggett, there's no way he gets a 5 rating in skill unless all of your emphasis is on shooting ability. As we saw when he played in the IBL, his ball handling skills were mediocre and he lacked effective dribble penetration skills. He also was only an average defender. Claggett was great at SLU because his shooting was out of this world.

Overall, I'd rank SLU a 2 in athleticism and 3 in skill and 5 in intangibles.

[slu72]

as they are key to a players overall game. Hell, if our Olympic team had some defenders like JF and MO, look how good they'd be.

But anyways for gus I've seen only:

L D

Bryant, 4 4 3 ? 2

Frericks 3 3 5 ? 3

Ohanon 3 3 3 ? 2

Drejaj 3 3 5 3 3 this guy will take a bullet to win

Clarke 3 2 ? ? 2

Voyukos 2 3 2 ? 2

Johnson 3 3 ? ? 2

Perry 4 4 5 4 3

Hughes 5 5 4 3 4 don't forget how many steals he had

Mo 5 4 3 3 5 Next to Hughes he's the best of recent crop

[billiken_roy]

while i guess i agree that fisher shouldnt be the top rating in "skill", i again take exception to his "ball skills". josh fisher proved he was an excellent point guard. imo only h waldman exceeded him in the last 20 years of billiken basketball. and as to his slashing or driving skills, was it that he couldnt or didnt do it? we saw him take his man on two big occasions last year going to the basket. imo fish could drive but chose to play the traditional point guard role. applause applause for a true team player.

[ACE]

There aren't many 6-9 guys as quick as Ohanan off the dribble. He's certainly got flaws to his game, but athleticism is not one of them. Marque has got to be a 5 in intangibles. He was clutch and played with heart, maximizing his ability.

Claggett vs. Bryant. Now that would be an interesting comparison.

[Quality Is Job 1]

...to add in the definitions of athletic ability and skill that I had posted in the other thread. You'll see that I consider defense a skill.

[3star_recruit]

I think people are going to be surprised by Clarke's performance based on this evaluations. He's just as good an athlete and ballhandler as Reggie is. That mid-season injury really screwed up Clarke's season.

[aj_arete]

as a point guard, but when I think of his play at the point, what I come up with is ROCK SOLID. He usually made the right entry pass into the post and executed the offense well. But there are different types of entry passes into the post and I didn't see Fisher with that variety. I could be wrong, but he was only above average for me in that regard. I don't remember him as having an effective crossover dribble, but I do remember him having an explosive first step and could drive to the hole well. Upon reflection, I wouldn't argue with a 4 rating for him.

[billiken_roy]

explosive first step vs a crossover? who cares as long as he gets results. same with the varied entry passes. the man holds the all-time assists record. he must have done something right along the way.

[billiken_roy]

i hope you are right. if for no other reason than to shut up the ahearn lovers.

[jjray]

>I evaluate players based on shooting, ballhandling,

>athleticism and defense, with the most weight given to

>shooting and defense. So for me, Lisch grades out higher

>than anybody we have on the squad. I also have a pretty

>high opinion of Clarke based on the praise Brad gave to his

>shooting and defense when he signed - he just needs to play.

He showed short flashed of what he can do last year but lack of upperbody stength (and injuries) really held him back in the rough and tumble CUSA IMHO. If he has put some weight on and gained strength in the offseason, I am anxious to see what he show us this season. He has an openning this year to contribute.

[slufanskip]

In speaking with someone who has watched the team alot and has a past connection to the team ... I have heard that Clark is looking very good and has put on quite a few lbs of muscle. My understanding is he is very confident with the ball and can really shoot it. When watching the Iowa game at Dave's ... I noticed how good DC looked in that game. I don't remember noticing it the first time. I have a feeling we are going to be pleasantly surprised.

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[thetorch]

Cool thread

I don't think any one on this current Bills team is a monster athletically. Fischer was pretty close, combining speed, strength, reaction time etc. Polk may be the only person I would give a 5 to at this point. Bryant, Clarke, Johnson, and Ohanon would be 4s or high 3s. You have to give Johnson and especially Ohaonon extra credit because of their size. Frericks, Vouyoukas and Husak are probably average for centers in D-1. Drejaj is not much of an athlete in comparison to the other guards. Any judgement on the other newcomers I think would be premature on all accounts.

Skillwise Ohanon would be near the top, albeit gaining most of his credit on offense and getting points for size. He ahs incredible individual skills on offense, adept at shooting, passing and low post skills like footwork. His defense is there but I think his lack of it speaks more to his experiences in Israel and his lack of being able to comprehend american style team play. Bryant is underrated skill wise, he is an excellent dribbler and I think this year he will step up mightily on defense, sometimes subbing into the stopper role on the perimeter. Vouyoukas is similar to Ohanon but obviously more post oriented. His passing, footwork and shooting dwarf the other centers on the roster and are arguably better than Ohanon's. I haven't seen Clarke enough in game situations to really evaluate him.

Intangibles go to Drejaj and Frericks while Bryant if he can improve his defense will be right up there with them. Ohanon and Johnson would be at the low end of this spectrum. Clarke's improvement this year will go a long way to making his rating go up or down.

[brehms13]

I actually don't do much rating because u just never know. I think on the athleticism, I'd give Reg a 4, Drejaj a 3, Frericks a 3, Ohanon 3, on skill I'd give Reg a 5, Drejaj a 3, Frericks a 4, Ohanon a 3, then on intangibles I'd give Reg a 4, Drejaj a 4, Frericks a 4 and Ohanon a 3. Not looking at past players-they're gone, new ones I only know what I've read and the ones i haven't named, i need to see more of before drawing a conclusion. I think Reg is underrated in the skill and intangible part, only because I know you all haven't seen him at his best. Hopefully this year we'll get to see more of his playing abilities. I'm hoping this year Frericks continues to play hard, but stays in the game longer and play past any bad ref calls etc.........Drejaj, I'm hoping he gets more time, he was recruited at the last minute, played off the bench last year and didn't get as much time as I would have liked, but when he got in he was productive and that should count for something this year. Ohanon, if he plays with more intensity, I think we'll see a difference this year, he can hit the shots, but I'd like to see him get really pumped during a game. I hear Polk is really good but mostly fast and Newborne can shoot so, I do expect greater things this year.

[billiken_roy]

brehms, just curious how reggie did at school this summer? always like to hear academic progress reports on our players. and since you are a pretty good source, you would be a good one to ask.

[jjray]

>>Newborne can shoot<<

brehms, did this come from Reg? The main thing we need from Newborne is to defend and rebound but if he can shoot also (even just a mid-range game) it would be a huge plus for the team.

[aj_arete]

since that's how this debate got started. You mentioned Ian's skill level, so what's your opinion on Tom. We're looking at shooting ability, footwork, passing ability and defense. How does he grade out in your opinion?

[thetorch]

Newbourne is supposed to have a decent 3 point shot. I don't remember his stats but he shot more than a few in JUCO. He should be at least similar to Sloan in his shooting ability with a better feel for playing inside.

[thetorch]

I would say frericks skill level is average for a big man. His footwork is not that great, he is certainly not doing ballet out there. He pretty much just bulls into the paint and puts up his shot. This is not a bad way to go about but he does not have the footwork of Ian or Izik. Shooting is average to poor. He is a very good position player on both offense and defense. This helps his overall defense and rebounding tremendously. Overall Frericks has shortcomings but makes up for it with strength and positioning. Frericks strongest marks would come under the intangibles, but still he has some physical attributes and enough understanding of the game to be an above average big man.

[tseugnekillib]

TF was a poor free throw shooter last season (29-63 = 46%). However, from the field Tom was 78-136 = 57%. I haven't compared that to other C-USA centers as yet, but I'm guessing 57% is an above average number.

[billiken_roy]

i'll give frericks a mulligan on free throw percentage. hell seems like half the season he was playing with something seriously wrong or hurt. not the best situation to shoot from 15 feet from the basket.